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post #31 of 131

Re: Download Michael Moores Sicko

On Sun, 1 Jul 2007 12:14:05 -0400, "Oz" <re_osborn@yahoo.com> wrote:

>I don't know if I would go so far as to say that. I may be an exception
>to the *rule* but I never have a problem getting the healthcare services
>I need. Admittedly, I am low maintenance (not bragging by any means
>- I just don't go to the doctor very often) but it seems to me that most
>everyone I know is comfortable with the healthcare services they receive
>and don't compain about the cost. Again, this is a small segment of the
>overall population but that is my experience.


The people complaining are those that are paying the bills, either
directly or in their (smaller) businesses. Have you checked the
percentage of uninsured Americans lately?

>I am humored though to hear people complain about how much healthcare
>in the United States sucks when people from the Great White North (aka
>Canada) flock to the great US of A to get procedures that they can't get
>there. I would say that Canada's healthcare system in in need of repair.


Healthcare costs, and the mechanism for paying for them, is broken in
the USA. Quality, in general, is good if/when you get care.

>Instead of saying that healthcare is broken here, I would say that some
>portions
>of the "system" need to be fixed. And; for puposes of general information,
>Republicans and Democrats, alike, are in the back pockets of the
>insurance industry. It's called lobbying and NO ONE in Washington is
>exempt from this truth.


I agree although I do lay much of the blame for drug costs at the feet
of the current administration. Keeping it illegal to buy drugs from
Canada is one example. Refusing to allow Medicare to negotiate drug
prices is another. I have to laugh when I hear drug companies and
their mouthpieces state that it costs billions to bring drugs to the
market - while leaving out the second half of that sentence "and we
think Americans should pay for it but not other countries".

<snip>

>Therefore, most companies are
>providing a services to their employees that they don't *have to*.


I agree, they don't "have to". But, individuals need realistic options
for buying their own coverage. $10K per year for an 80% policy is not
reasonable for most families.

I also suggest that employer policies that allow you to go to the
doctor for free, or $15, etc are nonsense. If you are gainfully
employed, you should be able to spring for the true cost of a Dr's
office visit, which is four or five times that. It would be like
expecting a zero deductible policy on your car. Insurance should be to
pay for larger items, not costs we can afford out of pocket.

But, it's just one more symptom of the broken system.
post #32 of 131

Re: Download Michael Moores Sicko

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:37:03 -0700, "G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme.com>
wrote:

>Ride-A-Lot wrote:
>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>> Cyberiade.it Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>>>
>>> {Illegal Spam Snipped}
>>>
>>> Why on earth would I want to watch "Plump's Fiction"? LOL
>>>

>>
>> Finally, a sane comment about that communist asshole. It's scary to
>> think that people actually believe what he says without looking at the
>> history books. The you get the media and people like Howard Stern
>> praising his every word. I am thinking about ditching the sirius now.
>>
>> Michael Moore is the next Mao Tse Tung, only I don't think they make one
>> of those gray peoples uniforms in his size.


This kind of unreasoning, ignorant fear is IDENTICAL to the way
mountain bikers react to other forms of truth-telling, such as
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7. All it means is that Michael
Moore hit the nail on the head.
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
post #33 of 131

Re: Download Michael Moores Sicko

On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 11:00:55 -0700, Johnny Sunset
<sunsetss0003@yahoo.com> wrote:


>> I thought it meant stealing from the productive and giving to the
>> indolent. There's another definition?

>
>And conservative means stealing from labor that actually creates
>wealth, and gives it to capital which was typically earned by means
>other than labor.


I don't know that that's the definition of conservative :-) However,
it does fit most of the past and current robber barons, who were
traditionally conservative, and are now neo-conservative - neo being
even more on target for your statement.

>Of course Chavez is terrible for giving money back from petroleum
>extraction back to the people of Venezuela, instead of foreign oil
>corporations and a few wealthy elites who obtained their power by non-
>democratic (and otherwise immoral) means.


hardly a guy to hang your hat on, but giving money back to the people
is never a bad thing. I expect they have their own version of neo-cons
soaking up a lot of it though.

>Has there even been a fascist government the US did not like, as long
>as the leaders of that government did not challenge the supremacy of
>US based corporations?


I'm confused, are we including the fascist regime in power in the USA
right now? :-)
post #34 of 131

Re: Download Michael Moores Sicko

On Jul 1, 1:32 pm, still me? wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 11:00:55 -0700, Johnny Sunset wrote:
> >> I thought it meant stealing from the productive and giving to the
> >> indolent. There's another definition?

>
> >And conservative means stealing from labor that actually creates
> >wealth, and gives it to capital which was typically earned by means
> >other than labor.

>
> I don't know that that's the definition of conservative :-) However,
> it does fit most of the past and current robber barons, who were
> traditionally conservative, and are now neo-conservative - neo being
> even more on target for your statement.


I was misusing conservative in its true sense in response to misuse of
progressive.

Most Republican's are no longer conservative. Heck, if Barry Goldwater
was still around, he would be called a RINO for being too politically
left. The days of the Republican Party that supported libertarian
values, fiscal responsibility and small government are long past.

> >Of course Chavez is terrible for giving money back from petroleum
> >extraction back to the people of Venezuela, instead of foreign oil
> >corporations and a few wealthy elites who obtained their power by non-
> >democratic (and otherwise immoral) means.

>
> hardly a guy to hang your hat on, but giving money back to the people
> is never a bad thing. I expect they have their own version of neo-cons
> soaking up a lot of it though.


Chavez is hardly a saint, but better than his predecessors by far.
There is an unfortunate tendency for some misguided persons on the
left to promote anyone who opposes the right to heroic status,
regardless of there true nature. Any Venezuelan not born to wealth
(almost all of them) are better off under Chavez, and the rich elite
have NOT had their property confiscated or been sent off to Soviet
style labor camps.

> >Has there even been a fascist government the US did not like, as long
> >as the leaders of that government did not challenge the supremacy of
> >US based corporations?

>
> I'm confused, are we including the fascist regime in power in the USA
> right now? :-)


Well, the current regime appoints lobbyists and executive from big
corporations to be "regulators" of those corporations, so it looks
like the Bush "Rangers" and "Pioneers" got a great bargain for their
campaign donations.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Socialism for corporations and "free enterprise" for the rest of
Americans!"
post #35 of 131

Re: Download Michael Moores Sicko

On Jul 1, 2:32 pm, "DI" (who?) anonymously wrote:
> "Johnny Sunset" wrote:>
>
> > On Jul 1, 1:32 pm, still me? wrote:
> >> On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 11:00:55 -0700, Johnny Sunset wrote:
> >> >> I thought it meant stealing from the productive and giving to the
> >> >> indolent. There's another definition?

>
> >> >And conservative means stealing from labor that actually creates
> >> >wealth, and gives it to capital which was typically earned by means
> >> >other than labor.

>
> >> I don't know that that's the definition of conservative :-) However,
> >> it does fit most of the past and current robber barons, who were
> >> traditionally conservative, and are now neo-conservative - neo being
> >> even more on target for your statement.

>
> > I was misusing conservative in its true sense in response to misuse of
> > progressive.

>
> > Most Republican's are no longer conservative. Heck, if Barry Goldwater
> > was still around, he would be called a RINO for being too politically
> > left. The days of the Republican Party that supported libertarian
> > values, fiscal responsibility and small government are long past.

>
> >> >Of course Chavez is terrible for giving money back from petroleum
> >> >extraction back to the people of Venezuela, instead of foreign oil
> >> >corporations and a few wealthy elites who obtained their power by non-
> >> >democratic (and otherwise immoral) means.

>
> >> hardly a guy to hang your hat on, but giving money back to the people
> >> is never a bad thing. I expect they have their own version of neo-cons
> >> soaking up a lot of it though.

>
> > Chavez is hardly a saint, but better than his predecessors by far.
> > There is an unfortunate tendency for some misguided persons on the
> > left to promote anyone who opposes the right to heroic status,
> > regardless of there true nature. Any Venezuelan not born to wealth
> > (almost all of them) are better off under Chavez, and the rich elite
> > have NOT had their property confiscated or been sent off to Soviet
> > style labor camps.

>
> >> >Has there even been a fascist government the US did not like, as long
> >> >as the leaders of that government did not challenge the supremacy of
> >> >US based corporations?

>
> >> I'm confused, are we including the fascist regime in power in the USA
> >> right now? :-)

>
> > Well, the current regime appoints lobbyists and executive from big
> > corporations to be "regulators" of those corporations, so it looks
> > like the Bush "Rangers" and "Pioneers" got a great bargain for their
> > campaign donations.

>
> > --
> > Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> > "Socialism for corporations and "free enterprise" for the rest of
> > Americans!"

>
> This all reminds me of a quote of a great Statesman:
>
> Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man
> who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains. -Sir Winston
> Churchill. ...


Is that the same Winston Churchill who used poison gas on the Kurds in
what is now Iraq? The same Winston Churchill that started the
deliberate indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas in WW2?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
post #36 of 131

Re: Download Michael Moores Sicko

On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 12:42:28 -0700, Johnny Sunset <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> On Jul 1, 2:32 pm, "DI" (who?) anonymously wrote:
>> "Johnny Sunset" wrote:>
>>
>> This all reminds me of a quote of a great Statesman:
>>
>> Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any
>> man
>> who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains. -Sir Winston
>> Churchill. ...

>
> Is that the same Winston Churchill who used poison gas on the Kurds in
> what is now Iraq? The same Winston Churchill that started the
> deliberate indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas in WW2?
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia



And your point is?
--
Slack
post #37 of 131

Re: Download Michael Moores Sicko

"Shawn" <s.currynospam@bresnan.net> wrote in message
news:tImdnexwibI2fBrbnZ2dnUVZ_oupnZ2d@comcast.com...

> We spend nearly twice as much per capita on health care than Canada.
> Canada covers everyone though. Don't you think we should be able to cover
> everyone, and still do better? Or do you have no faith in America's
> ability to take on tough problems and provide better solutions?
> http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/chcm010307oth.cfm
>
> BTW, Canadian life expectancy is a bit higher too.


No, I have no confidence in the government to do anything right where it
concerns taking care of the population or individuals. History is replete
with examples of government initiatives that have been derailed and/or
not served the purpose for which they were intended. Government/
Big Brother is not the answer to every problem.

Oz
post #38 of 131

Re: Download Michael Moores Sicko

On Jul 1, 3:02 pm, Slack (who?) anonymously wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 12:42:28 -0700, Johnny Sunset wrote:
>
> > On Jul 1, 2:32 pm, "DI" (who?) anonymously wrote:
> >> "Johnny Sunset" wrote:>

>
> >> This all reminds me of a quote of a great Statesman:

>
> >> Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any
> >> man
> >> who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains. -Sir Winston
> >> Churchill. ...

>
> > Is that the same Winston Churchill who used poison gas on the Kurds in
> > what is now Iraq? The same Winston Churchill that started the
> > deliberate indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas in WW2?

>
> And your point is?


Since Winston Churchill is being presented as an authority by the
anonymous "DI", I though illustrating W.C.'s moral character as a
Conservative politician would be relevant.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
post #39 of 131

Re: Download Michael Moores Sicko

"Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1183312855.973983.175530@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

> Of course Chavez is terrible for giving money back from petroleum
> extraction back to the people of Venezuela, instead of foreign oil
> corporations and a few wealthy elites who obtained their power by non-
> democratic (and otherwise immoral) means.


While shutting down opposition media outlets?

Yep, there's a great guy for ya!

Oz
post #40 of 131

Re: Download Michael Moores Sicko

"Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1183316405.277991.279570@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...

> Most Republican's are no longer conservative. Heck, if Barry Goldwater
> was still around, he would be called a RINO for being too politically
> left. The days of the Republican Party that supported libertarian
> values, fiscal responsibility and small government are long past.


Can't argue with you there. The neo-cons are hardly conservative.

> Chavez is hardly a saint, but better than his predecessors by far.
> There is an unfortunate tendency for some misguided persons on the
> left to promote anyone who opposes the right to heroic status,
> regardless of there true nature. Any Venezuelan not born to wealth
> (almost all of them) are better off under Chavez, and the rich elite
> have NOT had their property confiscated or been sent off to Soviet
> style labor camps.


Yet. However, killing opposition media and changing the consitution so
that he can stay in power is a pretty good start.

> Well, the current regime appoints lobbyists and executive from big
> corporations to be "regulators" of those corporations, so it looks
> like the Bush "Rangers" and "Pioneers" got a great bargain for their
> campaign donations.


Wow! This must be the first administration to have allowed this kind
of thing to occur under its watch. Now I really am shocked.

Of course, the Democrats would never, ever, allow anything like this
to happen. Yeah, right.

Oz
post #41 of 131

Re: Download Michael Moores Sicko

On Jul 1, 3:29 pm, "Oz" (who?) anonymously wrote:
> "Johnny Sunset" wrote:
>
> > Of course Chavez is terrible for giving money back from petroleum
> > extraction back to the people of Venezuela, instead of foreign oil
> > corporations and a few wealthy elites who obtained their power by non-
> > democratic (and otherwise immoral) means.

>
> While shutting down opposition media outlets?
>
> Yep, there's a great guy for ya!


The action was not renewing a broadcast license of a television
station that supported violent overthrow of the legitimately ELECTED
government. If a US station had done the same, it would have been shut
down the same day, not allowed to broadcast for the half-decade
remaining in its current licensing period.

By the way, the station in question is still free to transmit by
satellite and cable.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Rationality, as the primary cognitive system for comprehending our
world, has been rejected in favor of unyielding dogmatic belief. -
David Michael Green
post #42 of 131

Re: Download Michael Moores Sicko

"Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1183322718.346506.112890@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 1, 3:29 pm, "Oz" (who?) anonymously wrote:


On Jul 1, 3:29 pm, "Johnny Sunset" or is it "Tom Shermon" anonymously wrote:

> The action was not renewing a broadcast license of a television
> station that supported violent overthrow of the legitimately ELECTED
> government. If a US station had done the same, it would have been shut
> down the same day, not allowed to broadcast for the half-decade
> remaining in its current licensing period.


Same legitimately elected government that changed the constitution so that
the president could stay in office without elections?

That is definitely a model that we need here. Hell, with that mindset the
Clintons would still be in power.
post #43 of 131

Re: Download Michael Moores Sicko

On Jul 1, 3:33 pm, "Oz" (who?) anonymously wrote:
> "Johnny Sunset" wrote:
>
> > Most Republican's are no longer conservative. Heck, if Barry Goldwater
> > was still around, he would be called a RINO for being too politically
> > left. The days of the Republican Party that supported libertarian
> > values, fiscal responsibility and small government are long past.

>
> Can't argue with you there. The neo-cons are hardly conservative.
>
> > Chavez is hardly a saint, but better than his predecessors by far.
> > There is an unfortunate tendency for some misguided persons on the
> > left to promote anyone who opposes the right to heroic status,
> > regardless of there true nature. Any Venezuelan not born to wealth
> > (almost all of them) are better off under Chavez, and the rich elite
> > have NOT had their property confiscated or been sent off to Soviet
> > style labor camps.

>
> Yet. However, killing opposition media and changing the consitution so
> that he can stay in power is a pretty good start.


As pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the opposition media has
hardly been killed off, and has operated in a way that would be
considered treasonous in the US. And if you think that treasonous
speech is protected in the US, you are quite naive.

> > Well, the current regime appoints lobbyists and executive from big
> > corporations to be "regulators" of those corporations, so it looks
> > like the Bush "Rangers" and "Pioneers" got a great bargain for their
> > campaign donations.

>
> Wow! This must be the first administration to have allowed this kind
> of thing to occur under its watch. Now I really am shocked.
>
> Of course, the Democrats would never, ever, allow anything like this
> to happen. Yeah, right.


That was the policy of the Clinton Administration to some extent. Of
course, Willie Clinton betrayed his base on many issues, and was
practically indistinguishable from Bush I and Dole on all issues
except pandering to the Christian Coalition.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Socialism for corporations and "free enterprise" for the rest of
Americans!"
post #44 of 131

Re: Download Michael Moores Sicko

On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 13:22:48 -0700, Johnny Sunset <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> On Jul 1, 3:02 pm, Slack (who?) anonymously wrote:
>> On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 12:42:28 -0700, Johnny Sunset wrote:
>>
>> > On Jul 1, 2:32 pm, "DI" (who?) anonymously wrote:
>> >> "Johnny Sunset" wrote:>

>>
>> >> This all reminds me of a quote of a great Statesman:

>>
>> >> Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any
>> >> man
>> >> who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains. -Sir

>> Winston
>> >> Churchill. ...

>>
>> > Is that the same Winston Churchill who used poison gas on the Kurds in
>> > what is now Iraq? The same Winston Churchill that started the
>> > deliberate indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas in WW2?

>>
>> And your point is?

>
> Since Winston Churchill is being presented as an authority by the
> anonymous "DI", I though illustrating W.C.'s moral character as a
> Conservative politician would be relevant.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia



You must be a GRS.
--
Slack
post #45 of 131

Re: Download Michael Moores Sicko

I like your little anonymous BS. Who are you - Johnny Sunset or Tom
Shermon. Can't tell.

"Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1183323148.490858.233210@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 1, 3:33 pm, "Oz" (who?) anonymously wrote:
>> "Johnny Sunset" wrote:
>>
>> > Most Republican's are no longer conservative. Heck, if Barry Goldwater
>> > was still around, he would be called a RINO for being too politically
>> > left. The days of the Republican Party that supported libertarian
>> > values, fiscal responsibility and small government are long past.

>>
>> Can't argue with you there. The neo-cons are hardly conservative.
>>
>> > Chavez is hardly a saint, but better than his predecessors by far.
>> > There is an unfortunate tendency for some misguided persons on the
>> > left to promote anyone who opposes the right to heroic status,
>> > regardless of there true nature. Any Venezuelan not born to wealth
>> > (almost all of them) are better off under Chavez, and the rich elite
>> > have NOT had their property confiscated or been sent off to Soviet
>> > style labor camps.

>>
>> Yet. However, killing opposition media and changing the consitution so
>> that he can stay in power is a pretty good start.

>
> As pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the opposition media has
> hardly been killed off, and has operated in a way that would be
> considered treasonous in the US. And if you think that treasonous
> speech is protected in the US, you are quite naive.
>
>> > Well, the current regime appoints lobbyists and executive from big
>> > corporations to be "regulators" of those corporations, so it looks
>> > like the Bush "Rangers" and "Pioneers" got a great bargain for their
>> > campaign donations.

>>
>> Wow! This must be the first administration to have allowed this kind
>> of thing to occur under its watch. Now I really am shocked.
>>
>> Of course, the Democrats would never, ever, allow anything like this
>> to happen. Yeah, right.

>
> That was the policy of the Clinton Administration to some extent. Of
> course, Willie Clinton betrayed his base on many issues, and was
> practically indistinguishable from Bush I and Dole on all issues
> except pandering to the Christian Coalition.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> "Socialism for corporations and "free enterprise" for the rest of
> Americans!"
>
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