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Riding Twice A Day

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
Does anyone ride twice a day? I've been doing this lately, due to my school schedule. About 20 miles in the morning, and 20 at night. Yea, it's not the same as doing 40 miles straight, you don't get the same endurance, but I think there are some advantages too. You are more fatigued after 20 miles, so resting a few hours, then going at it again later in the day can allow you to have two shorter rides at higher intensity, as opposed to one long ride at a lower intensity.
post #2 of 28

Re: Riding Twice A Day

Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer88
Does anyone ride twice a day?
I do whenever I commute to my job by bike. I don't always "train" (that is, do something at a higher intensity than just "easy") but when I do, I notice similar effects. The 8-10 hours between sessions allows for some recovery. I'm usually able to put out some good numbers even though I'm usually a little tired on the way home in the evening. Despite that, I still do any higher intensity stuff in the morning when I am more awake just because it's easier to motivate myself at that time.

I don't know if there is an overall advantage to doing things this way or not. I did a lot of SST last autumn this way and the training effect on my 20-minute power didn't seem to be any different than in previous periods where I was strictly doing once-per-day sessions.
post #3 of 28

Re: Riding Twice A Day

Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer88
Does anyone ride twice a day? ....
I ride doubles a couple of days a week. A couple of hour to hour and a half training rides just fits my available time better than a longer ride. I can usually hold a little better overall intensity on double days as long as I'm dilligent about refueling after the first ride. But it can also be tough mentally some days to get back on the bike for the second workout.

I don't know that the overall results are any better than one good ride and I expect I'll be doing fewer, longer training sessions this summer. But so far, especially for indoor training, doubles have allowed me more total training time than one effort per day. It's definitely helped me get my CTL above 100 while still being stuck indoors on the trainer, I just can't handle two and a half hours straight on the trainer but a couple of hour plus sessions is manageable.

-Dave
post #4 of 28

Re: Riding Twice A Day

Since you're mostly talking about commuting my advice may not apply. I recently did an intense training crit of 55 min length. I'm a cat. 3 and this was a 1/2/3 race that included couple of BMC pros so I was pretty spent by the end. After driving home and refueling properly I decided that despite the intensity I didn't have enough TSS for the day, so I did a 90 min SST session in the evening and my body handled it quite well (CTL = 88). I think that if you were to train twice a day you likewise would probably want to do your intensity earlier in the day, followed by a less intense ride later. Just a thought, although YMMV.
post #5 of 28
Thread Starter 

Re: Riding Twice A Day

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotr
Since you're mostly talking about commuting my advice may not apply. I recently did an intense training crit of 55 min length. I'm a cat. 3 and this was a 1/2/3 race that included couple of BMC pros so I was pretty spent by the end. After driving home and refueling properly I decided that despite the intensity I didn't have enough TSS for the day, so I did a 90 min SST session in the evening and my body handled it quite well (CTL = 88). I think that if you were to train twice a day you likewise would probably want to do your intensity earlier in the day, followed by a less intense ride later. Just a thought, although YMMV.
Actually these are training rides. The other posters in the thread are commuting. I am preparing for a 60 minute crit in a few weeks (my first race ever), so I am really trying to be on the bike as much as possible to train for that. I put in 40 miles total on Monday, 45 miles on Tuesday, and just 20 miles today (2000 feet of climbing).

Anyways, I was a swimmer for 14 years, so training twice a day is nothing new for me. I was just curious if it was common amongst cyclists. Seems like most people just brag about how far/long they rode on one ride...I'm focused more on quality, not quantity. Hopefully I'll show up to this crit and be a Cat 5 sensation!
post #6 of 28

Re: Riding Twice A Day

Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer88
Actually these are training rides. The other posters in the thread are commuting.
Well, my friend, I'll send you some of my files from "just commuting" and I think you would be surprised. In fact, given your level of inexperience, you definitely would find it surprising..

Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer88
I am preparing for a 60 minute crit in a few weeks (my first race ever), so I am really trying to be on the bike as much as possible to train for that. I put in 40 miles total on Monday, 45 miles on Tuesday, and just 20 miles today (2000 feet of climbing).
I'm a bit surprised to see a Cat 5 (only, not combined 4/5) crit at 60 minutes in length. I'm also surprised to learn that 2000 feet of climbing is going to really help somebody's crit riding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer88
Anyways, I was a swimmer for 14 years, so training twice a day is nothing new for me. I was just curious if it was common amongst cyclists.
It happens. Some do, some don't. It happens at all levels to some degree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer88
Seems like most people just brag about how far/long they rode on one ride...I'm focused more on quality, not quantity. Hopefully I'll show up to this crit and be a Cat 5 sensation!
Maybe and maybe not. But you wouldn't be the first person to show up at their first Cat 5 crit with an attitude.
post #7 of 28
Thread Starter 

Re: Riding Twice A Day

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_B
Well, my friend, I'll send you some of my files from "just commuting" and I think you would be surprised. In fact, given your level of inexperience, you definitely would find it surprising..

I'm a bit surprised to see a Cat 5 (only, not combined 4/5) crit at 60 minutes in length. I'm also surprised to learn that 2000 feet of climbing is going to really help somebody's crit riding.

It happens. Some do, some don't. It happens at all levels to some degree.

Maybe and maybe not. But you wouldn't be the first person to show up at their first Cat 5 crit with an attitude.
Link to El Dorado 60 minute Crit Flyer (Cat 1/2/3, Cat 4/5, Men 40+/Women)

Steve_B, I'm sure you are fast, commuting or training...but how does my 5 years of riding consititute inexperience? Yes, I may be racing inexperienced, but just because I haven't done a race until now doesn't mean I'm a newbie cyclist.

Something that has always concerned me is the narrow-mindedness (spelling?) of some riders' training techniques. Yes, I am training for a crit. Does that mean I am going to go ride flats in a 1-mile loop every single day? No. Any experienced rider would know you should balance your training, and include climbing and flats to work all your leg muscles. Climbing in that sense will surely help me develop balanced muscle strength, as it works the gluts and hamstrings, whereas sprinting works more on your quads.

Sometimes riders get too caught up in intervals, wattage, HR, and forget that the more important thing is getting out there are riding longer and harder than before...hence the topic of this thread, riding twice a day.
post #8 of 28

Re: Riding Twice A Day

whoa.. it's getting hot in here... could it be because of the climate change... cool it guys
post #9 of 28

Re: Riding Twice A Day

I believe that a well structured training programme with several two-rides-a-day days will help someone who is focussing on shorter races/criteriums.

No need to get in a pi**ing contest about who has more experience, though!
post #10 of 28

Re: Riding Twice A Day

Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer88
Steve_B, I'm sure you are fast, commuting or training...
..and you're missing the point. It's not about me. The original point was that many of us get quite a lot accomplished in that time going to and from our jobs. Often that's all we have time available for during the day so we have to make it useful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer88
but how does my 5 years of riding consititute inexperience? Yes, I may be racing inexperienced, but just because I haven't done a race until now doesn't mean I'm a newbie cyclist.
Fine. I am happy for you. However people that don't race tend to train a different way because they have different goals. There’s nothing wrong with that. If you're not experienced at racing, however, you're unlikely to have a complete grasp of some of the training racers do. That's all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer88
Something that has always concerned me is the narrow-mindedness (spelling?) of some riders' training techniques. Yes, I am training for a crit. Does that mean I am going to go ride flats in a 1-mile loop every single day? No. Any experienced rider would know you should balance your training, and include climbing and flats to work all your leg muscles. Climbing in that sense will surely help me develop balanced muscle strength, as it works the gluts and hamstrings, whereas sprinting works more on your quads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer88


Sometimes riders get too caught up in intervals, wattage, HR, and forget that the more important thing is getting out there are riding longer and harder than before...hence the topic of this thread, riding twice a day.
Great, however you said you were training for (and seemed to be focused on) a crit and in absence of any other information, what else was I to conclude?

I would also point out to you aspects of specificity. Crits are not climbing and they have specific demands in terms of power durations, cadence, neuromuscular power, etc. I wouldn't expect someone preparing for their first race ever to be that knowledgeable or concerned about those details - I think other matters will and should take priority. However, since you seemed to be so sure of yourself as absolutely the on the right path, I thought I would introduce a dose of reality.

Getting back to your original question, I know of some elite and pro riders that will train in the morning then come home, have lunch, take a nap then go out again later in the afternoon. Most of us with "real jobs" don't have that kind of time available too often.
post #11 of 28

Re: Riding Twice A Day

Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer88
Actually these are training rides. The other posters in the thread are commuting. I am preparing for a 60 minute crit in a few weeks (my first race ever), so I am really trying to be on the bike as much as possible to train for that. I put in 40 miles total on Monday, 45 miles on Tuesday, and just 20 miles today (2000 feet of climbing).

Anyways, I was a swimmer for 14 years, so training twice a day is nothing new for me. I was just curious if it was common amongst cyclists. Seems like most people just brag about how far/long they rode on one ride...I'm focused more on quality, not quantity. Hopefully I'll show up to this crit and be a Cat 5 sensation!
Sorry about the misunderstanding. Let me put it this way: if it was at all feasible I would train twice a day, because with the rest and refueling (and probably a nap ) in between I would most definitely get more volume and intensity out of a day. Good luck!
post #12 of 28

Re: Riding Twice A Day

Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer88

Something that has always concerned me is the narrow-mindedness (spelling?) of some riders' training techniques. Yes, I am training for a crit. Does that mean I am going to go ride flats in a 1-mile loop every single day? No. Any experienced rider would know you should balance your training, and include climbing and flats to work all your leg muscles. Climbing in that sense will surely help me develop balanced muscle strength, as it works the gluts and hamstrings, whereas sprinting works more on your quads.
I won't get into what muscle groups climbing may or may not help, that's a different discussion. Climbing is simply Sweet Spot training and that IMO ought to be the bread and butter of any cyclist's training, regardless of racing type focus.
post #13 of 28
Thread Starter 

Re: Riding Twice A Day

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_B
..and you're missing the point. It's not about me. The original point was that many of us get quite a lot accomplished in that time going to and from our jobs. Often that's all we have time available for during the day so we have to make it useful.

Fine. I am happy for you. However people that don't race tend to train a different way because they have different goals. There’s nothing wrong with that. If you're not experienced at racing, however, you're unlikely to have a complete grasp of some of the training racers do. That's all.

Great, however you said you were training for (and seemed to be focused on) a crit and in absence of any other information, what else was I to conclude?

I would also point out to you aspects of specificity. Crits are not climbing and they have specific demands in terms of power durations, cadence, neuromuscular power, etc. I wouldn't expect someone preparing for their first race ever to be that knowledgeable or concerned about those details - I think other matters will and should take priority. However, since you seemed to be so sure of yourself as absolutely the on the right path, I thought I would introduce a dose of reality.

Getting back to your original question, I know of some elite and pro riders that will train in the morning then come home, have lunch, take a nap then go out again later in the afternoon. Most of us with "real jobs" don't have that kind of time available too often.
Steve_B, sorry for flaming you. I was having a bad day and I overreacted. With that said, I do appreciate your advice. Let me back up and explain what point I am at in my training, and what my goals are, and why I am training twice a day.

I have been riding for 5 years off and on, mainly due to the fact that I was on the swim team in college, so the only times I ever rode was summer or the occasional Sunday. Now, I have finished swimming and I am in grad school, meaning I now have time to focus on riding. Before I graduate from grad school and go into the "real world" I wanted to try to focus on cycling and really make an effort to be the best that I can be, while I still have the time to train.

I've been building up my training for a few weeks and now I have started to really up the distance and intensity, but due to time constraints with school/family/old lady, riding twice a day just makes more sense. I have been able to do group rides 2-3 times a week, sometimes with 20+ riders. I am comfortable with my bike handling skills (meaning I can hold my line, and I don't swerve when looking over my shoulder).

My goal is to do a crit in a few weeks. For my first race, my goal is not to win, my goal is to not get dropped. That way I can gain experience riding in a crit for the whole race, not just the first few laps. Then the next time I do a race, I can focus more on racing, not worrying about turns, accelerations, and people all around me. Baby steps.

So anyways, does anyone have any tips for my first crit?
post #14 of 28

Re: Riding Twice A Day

Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer88
...does anyone have any tips for my first crit?
  • Stay near the front to save energy and avoid crashes
  • Don't overgear, especially on a course with a lot of corners, leg speed is your friend when it comes to saving energy and quickly closing gaps. Use your gears well, don't just pick a big gear and have to jump out of the saddle on every bend. Shifting from the drops is real easy these days, save some energy by reading the course and shifting appropriately.
  • Close all gaps immediately, hesitation will kill you in a fast crit if you're stuck out in the wind having to chase
  • Take safe lines through the corners using all the available road, don't dive underneath riders in front of you because you suddenly see a gap. Start wide, dive through the apex of the corner and exit as wide as your speed demands. Hold a predictable line throughout the corner.
  • Stay off your brakes as much as possible and if you must brake do so gently. Lots of slowing and speeding up is the hardest thing in lower category crits, another good reason to ride near the front.
  • Look for easy opportunities to move up if you fall back in the field. Don't get complacent or mentally lazy and miss the easy opportunities when folks around you slow a bit and holes open up. If you're not moving up in a fast crit, you're falling back it's rare to just maintain a fixed position so always think about moving forward unless you're already very near the front.
  • The first few laps will almost certainly feel ridiculously fast. It's rare the field maintains that early pace so get a solid warmup, a good starting position and expect the race to go out fast. Things generally settle down after a few laps so be ready to dig deep at the beginning to stay with the leaders.
  • The final few laps will be just as fast or faster, expect it and if you have any hope of placing you want to be right up front at the end. That generally means you have to be pretty darn close to the front with a couple laps to go as it's really tough to move up when things heat up. But also be aware of last lap slowing as folks try to get cagey. You can be right up in the top five riders with one to go and if things slow everyone will swarm around you which is bad from a competitive standpoint and can be dangerous as well. Sometimes you need to put yourself out in the wind a bit on the final lap to maintain your position up front, especially in lower category crits where you're unlikely to find a structured leadout train.
  • From a training standpoint make sure you're comfortable cornering at speed pedaling deep, but not dangerously deep into the corners. You can generally stay upright if you clip a pedal, but it's rarely worth the risk. Make sure you're training includes some speed changeup work like Bill Black's HOP workouts to get used to lots of accelerations.
Well, that's a starting point but there's nothing like riding a few crits to get the feel for them.

Good luck and keep the rubber side down,
-Dave
post #15 of 28

Re: Riding Twice A Day

+1 for the valuable advice from Dave. Suggest you print these out and study them often.....they are that good. You may be well-served to practice some tight cornering on your own....a school playground with painted circles makes a good practice venue. Slowly increase the speed until you're comfortable with quick entries and a good lean angle.

Only thing I'd add is don't feel bad if you are dropped your first few times out.....you likely won't be alone. Main thing is just to get out and do it; be safe and have fun.
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