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Irrefutable Truths and Cycling Training

post #1 of 134
12/31/09 at 7:04pm
Thread Starter 
Is there such a thing where it pertains to increasing cycling performance? With the amount of debate going on concerning training philosophies, power and otherwise, I'm interested in hearing if such a truth, or truths, actually exist...sometimes I have to wonder...do I resign myself to accepting that nebulous of all answers - "it depends"?...
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post #2 of 134
12/31/09 at 7:12pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Irrefutable Truths and Cycling Training

1st Commandment:
Ride your bike, and you will get faster...
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post #3 of 134
12/31/09 at 7:25pm

Re: Irrefutable Truths and Cycling Training

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyzackery View Post
1st Commandment:
Ride your bike, and you will get faster...
Heh, does it?? :-) i have some gf's that are permanently stuck in z1 it seems & they go backwards on every climb we do.

irrefutable truth in cycling? here's one: EPO works!

truth is i am in the 'it depends' camp these days. why?

b'cause as i see it, it mirrors what in math is called a sextic equation (one with 6 variables). sometimes you can solve them but many times no.

in the real world think of all the things that differ among riders:

age
genetics
physiology (vo2max, slow twitch/fast twitch composition, etc)
goals
(available) training time
consistentcy
dedication
skills
diet
rest

i doubt you will ever meet anyone that has the same variables you have. meaning you & i & anyone else we meet will not - and probably shouldn't - train the same exact way. that being the case there will always be a case of it depends.

the stuff i see as irrefutable? the physics & biology of bicycling - such as less weight on a hill climb = more speed (all else equal). lower cda = more speed on the flats (all else equal). anaerobic glycolysis gets you 2 net ATP, aerobic glycolysis gets you more like 36 ATP. that's diesel vs. high octane :-)

also the basic principles seem irrefutable like: specificity & overload.
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post #4 of 134
12/31/09 at 7:32pm

Re: Irrefutable Truths and Cycling Training

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyzackery View Post
1st Commandment:
Ride your bike, and you will get faster...
Or phrase it in the negative and then you'll get an absolute:

'Don't ride your bike and you won't get faster on the bike'

Gotta go with the 'it depends' group as do most things in life...

-Dave
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post #5 of 134
12/31/09 at 7:44pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Irrefutable Truths and Cycling Training

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming View Post
Or phrase it in the negative and then you'll get an absolute:

'Don't ride your bike and you won't get faster on the bike'

Gotta go with the 'it depends' group as do most things in life...

-Dave
So, IYO (in your opinion) there are no "irrefutable truths" as they pertain to increasing endurance (speed AND duration) cycling performance??
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post #6 of 134
12/31/09 at 8:21pm

Re: Irrefutable Truths and Cycling Training

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyzackery View Post
So, IYO (in your opinion) there are no "irrefutable truths" as they pertain to increasing endurance (speed AND duration) cycling performance??
I suppose their are some basic 'truths' but those that are beyond refute are so trivial as to hardly be worth mentioning (like the example above) or so general that they're subject to interpretation.

I could probably come up with a list that I believe to be true but I'd bet folks could strike them down one by one with exceptions. Still it's those beliefs that guide my training and are the filter through which I evaluate alternative training philosophies.

I think there are some physiology 'truths' or at least 'truths' to the limit of current knowledge and these can lead us to train one way or another. And there are some physics 'truths' that dictate how fast we can go on the bike and these can lead us to train in particular ways.

Bottom line is that there are many approaches to training and many coaching philosophies and programs that have yielded race winning cyclists at all levels. Did some of those athletes succeed in spite of poor training or are there just a whole lot of ways to skin the training cat?

-Dave
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post #7 of 134
12/31/09 at 8:29pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Irrefutable Truths and Cycling Training

^^Well, I guess there with the absence of 'irrefutable truth' the debate(s) will rage on...heck, you gotta wonder what some people would do with their days if they didn't have this medium (this forum in particular) within which to wax philosophic...

With that written:

2nd Commandment - Overload + Rest + Proper Nutrition = Supracompensation
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post #8 of 134
12/31/09 at 9:42pm

Re: Irrefutable Truths and Cycling Training

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming View Post
I suppose their are some basic 'truths' but those that are beyond refute are so trivial as to hardly be worth mentioning....
Yep. People don't come here looking for truth, as the basic truth of most things is blatantly obvious. People come here looking for "better," "best," "optimal," "most effective," or some other way of looking "beyond the truth" that we all can see. There are probably some great secrets to be found out there, but there's also plenty of snake oil.

Think about how many people are *searching* for a way to lose weight. What is there to look for?
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post #9 of 134
12/31/09 at 10:47pm

Re: Irrefutable Truths and Cycling Training

Every workout should have a specific purpose. (hat tip to Jack Daniels)
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post #10 of 134
12/31/09 at 11:18pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Irrefutable Truths and Cycling Training

Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchyge View Post
Yep. People don't come here looking for truth, as the basic truth of most things is blatantly obvious.
Negative. I think some people do come to this forum seeking information that could be considered "truth" - something definitive, something concrete, some method that is without question. There are many people out there that don't have all the "blatantly obvious" information that you seem to already possess...
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post #11 of 134
1/1/10 at 12:41am

Re: Irrefutable Truths and Cycling Training

Irrefutable Truth:
-your potential ability & ultimate performance ceiling in cycling are genetically based
- how close you get to that ceiling is a function of consistency (or lack of), training time & training method

i gather people come here for all sorts of reasons & who am i to pigeonhole them into one or the other category? i have asked hella questions here - some were does this work (yes/no), others were how/why, others were maybe nonsensical

example questions you see asked:

will 2 x 20 @ 91% of FTP raise threshold? (this is simple yes/no format - aka close-ended question)

what is the best way to raise threshold? (not so simple - open ended question).

another example:

what will get you closest to your ultimate potential in cycling given unlimited training time........

LSD? SST? willet style 4 hrs/week @ 20MMP? HIT?
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post #12 of 134
1/1/10 at 3:49am

Re: Irrefutable Truths and Cycling Training

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyzackery View Post
Negative. I think some people do come to this forum seeking information that could be considered "truth" - something definitive, something concrete, some method that is without question. There are many people out there that don't have all the "blatantly obvious" information that you seem to already possess...
Really? Someone who's ever ridden a bike needs to come to an internet forum to realize your commandment #1? Sorry if it sounds elitist, but that was blatantly obvious to me long before I came here. That's not to pick on your commandment, but rather that I understood from childhood that doing something tended to make me better at it.

Yes, people would like to hear that something is the true, best way to train..... but what that comprises is frequently and repeatedly debated. So, I wouldn't consider most of the advice we throw around here to be irrefutable.
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post #13 of 134
1/1/10 at 4:38am

Re: Irrefutable Truths and Cycling Training

Here's a truth:
There are many myths about cycling training.
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post #14 of 134
1/1/10 at 5:20am
Thread Starter 

Re: Irrefutable Truths and Cycling Training

Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchyge View Post
Really? Someone who's ever ridden a bike needs to come to an internet forum to realize your commandment #1? Sorry if it sounds elitist, but that was blatantly obvious to me long before I came here. That's not to pick on your commandment, but rather that I understood from childhood that doing something tended to make me better at it.

Yes, people would like to hear that something is the true, best way to train..... but what that comprises is frequently and repeatedly debated. So, I wouldn't consider most of the advice we throw around here to be irrefutable.
LOL! With over 4000 posts, I'd be willing to wager you personally at some point replied to a poster who obviously had no clue as to how to get faster on their bike. Further, with all the conjecture as how to get faster (weight lifting, core training, cross training, etc...) I think Commandment #1 is apropos.

The fact that you knew something before you got here is irrelevant to all the others that aren't you - who knew?! It's quite apparent that you'd be better entertained/served on another thread seeing as this one does nothing for you...
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post #15 of 134
1/1/10 at 1:04pm

Re: Irrefutable Truths and Cycling Training

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyzackery View Post
LOL! With over 4000 posts, I'd be willing to wager you personally at some point replied to a poster who obviously had no clue as to how to get faster on their bike.
I've responded with "just ride more" when I felt that people either just needed encouragement or needed a dose of the obvious to help them refocus on the basics, but my experience has been that even those folks have already tried some degree of "riding their bike to get faster at riding their bike" and are here looking for something more. I'm not sure what we're disagreeing about here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyzackery View Post
Further, with all the conjecture as how to get faster (weight lifting, core training, cross training, etc...) I think Commandment #1 is apropos.
Sure, I don't have a problem with what you see as the basic tenet of endurance training, and I think the principle there is general enough to be expanded to most anything else -- ie, doing something helps make you better at doing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyzackery View Post
It's quite apparent that you'd be better entertained/served on another thread seeing as this one does nothing for you...
Possibly, if something else comes up. My post was mainly in agreement with Dave's comments above it (ie, anything that is beyond refute is readily apparent to all (==> blatantly obvious), otherwise there'd be someone out there denying it), and I didn't really have much else to add. That you chose to respond to my comments led me to believe there was something about them that you wanted to discuss, and that is the only reason I'm still posting here. Cheers.

Dancen has made some good, topical posts to discuss, for those so inclined....
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