How many days to back off training before a race?

Fourlegsgood2wheelsbad · Aug 22, 2023

I'd recently ( in last month )experienced an episode of DOMS lasting up to 4 -5 days post ride . Ah must've been Ebett's pass LOL.
Really scared me like I thought I'd perhaps not get my legs back in time for a scheduled training ride- weekend scenic tour ,ect.

So the event is a timed hill climb . Feel I got the base training and adequate milage / vertical this year esp. last 100 plus days .

Any advice as to how many days previous to event to cease weight training and even training hills on the bike. I'd planned on some gentle spinning in flats the day before race and a bit as a warm up after registration on morning of.

4

cobbwheels · Aug 22, 2023

I cease weight training on Wednesday. Thursday is rest day. Friday is "Primer day". A "primer session" on Friday to me is just one 5 minute high intensity Z3-Z4 ride or trainer session for the whole day on Friday before the long ride or event on Saturday.

Technically, Friday is still a rest or recovery day but you have one 5 minute primer session so your legs are not "lazy" at the start of the Saturday long ride or event. Having lazy legs at the start can ruin your whole ride.

It is also very important that following a long hard ride on Saturday, you should make Sunday a rest day. No exercise, no riding if you can avoid it but if you must ride, most intensity should be Z1 and only short intervals in Z2, and not more than Z2 with duration of not more than 1 hr. This is very important if you do long and hard rides every Saturday of the week.

You should also avoid doing "traditional" weight training if you do long rides. Typically this is doing "reps to failure" using weights big enough the effort cannot be sustained with large number of reps. This type of weight training requires more period of rest and doesn't go well with long bike rides. Been there, done that, it's not sustainable.

Use weights that you can do with large number of reps and the perceived effort should be relatively easy, not hard. Time your sessions. Use timer. You shouldn't feel like the end of the world after each session but fresh. In time, as your muscles get stronger, you can add more weight but keep it as progressive as possible. Only add small weights at a time each week or two. It's not the traditional way you do to make bigger muscles but it's the only way that works well with long rides.

The key to climbing performance is developing fast and powerful muscular movements. Reps should be quick, not slow which means using less weight for strength training. Slow reps with larger weight gives bigger muscles but the training style is not well-suited for cycling.

Fourlegsgood2wheelsbad · Aug 22, 2023

thats something I am going to have to read through a few times.

I do totally get that weight training can conflict to long distance cycling. I do some fast rep excercises as well . my program is pretty broad and diverse balanced for a home-body hero. But "reps to failure" is what got me the watts ATM . I'm climbing faster & moving more gear inches and gaining muscle as a result of heavy or failure and negatives combined. Riding too , lost all my fat.

Sure I am my own worse enemy as the DOMS would be minimal if I laid off the weights some . I can say for sure the core work- lower back abs obliques I believe helps me a lot on the bike.

I want mass even if it is of no help on bike. I'd rode road with fellow greater blessed bodybuilders in the 80's - we all trained the gym together -they would dump me in the flats or into the wind. Where I'd shine was when the climb starts being less buff and much lighter system weight . I believe strong upper body complements attacks out of saddle sprints and aero position holding . Pulling up on the bars or hoods in sprint or climb while pushing down with legs , oblique core has got to help .
I've a body- image mental thing , feel I look skinny as a pin despite thick stout bones.

cobbwheels · Aug 23, 2023

Fourlegsgood2wheelsbad said:
thats something I am going to have to read through a few times.

I do totally get that weight training can conflict to long distance cycling. I do some fast rep excercises as well . my program is pretty broad and diverse balanced for a home-body hero. But "reps to failure" is what got me the watts ATM . I'm climbing faster & moving more gear inches and gaining muscle as a result of heavy or failure and negatives combined. Riding too , lost all my fat.

Sure I am my own worse enemy as the DOMS would be minimal if I laid off the weights some . I can say for sure the core work- lower back abs obliques I believe helps me a lot on the bike.

I want mass even if it is of no help on bike. I'd rode road with fellow greater blessed bodybuilders in the 80's - we all trained the gym together -they would dump me in the flats or into the wind. Where I'd shine was when the climb starts being less buff and much lighter system weight . I believe strong upper body complements attacks out of saddle sprints and aero position holding . Pulling up on the bars or hoods in sprint or climb while pushing down with legs , oblique core has got to help .
I've a body- image mental thing , feel I look skinny as a pin despite thick stout bones.

What I'm suggesting is a "reset". Starting with easy weights and then *very progressively* work the weights up in small increments. You'll still end up working with serious weights with the big boys in a few months.... you'll just take longer to get there!

Patience over workout injury or prolonged DOMS!

If you're training for long rides, long continuous climbs, you'll want to be working out the "Type 1" muscle fibers. These muscle fibers are not as big and explosive as Type 2 but they last a lot longer without fatigue and takes much less time to recover. More resistant to DOMS too.

Type 1 fibers prefer much easier intensity level of strength training at greater number of reps. It should be at a level of effort that you can sustain for long periods, at least 30 minutes continuously without fatigue but for the sake of avoiding over-doing your strength training, use a timer and limit your sessions to 5 to 10 minutes. Type 1 fibers will get stronger eventually but strength training these fibers must be spread over a longer period of time like months adding weight in small amounts instead of just few weeks with bigger weight increments.

Having way too much DOMS or even cramping won't help you in the long run. You'll "plateau" sooner in training if you keep having these. If not to your perfect riding conditions and terrific riding scenery all the time you'll be quitting soon!

I don't really experience DOMS in comparison. A day at most is all I get after say a 70 to 80 mile ride without eating nor drinking. Sometimes none. I can feel my muscles are weaker after a long ride and all I want to do is to sleep but not sore nor cramping. I take my weekday training, including strength training relatively easy to help my muscle recover from the long weekend ride in spite of continued workouts.

cobbwheels · Aug 24, 2023

Primer or "taper" day is coming! 1x5 minutes Z3 to Z4 effort.

Just want to say, careful not to over-do this. This shouldn't include strength training. It can ruin your big ride the next day if you come out of this session with sore muscles.

Personally, I do this in 4 min, 30 sec in Z3 using a bit harder gear. Something I can spin at ~80 rpm cadence and raise my HR to Z3. This gear inches or gear ratio is hard enough but not hard that I'm in pain the entire time. In fact, there should be no pain at all. You should be breathing hard in Z3 heart rate, yet, no pain, no soreness in the legs. The remaining 30 seconds is a seated sprint at 160 to 180 rpm cadence in Z5 using the same gear ratio/inches as I used in the Z3 interval.

Avoid doing standing sprint using harder gears at lower cadence rpm in this training session. It can compromise your next day performance even if you don't end up sore.

15 minutes easy warm up before the 5 minute primer session. Cooldown after is optional. Personally, I don't do cool downs.

Mr. Beanz · Aug 24, 2023

I'm not a technical guy but my event was 100 miles 10,000 ft gain.

I did 7,000 ft 2 weeks before the event. Flat easy 40 next day.

Week before, 3,000 ft on Saturday 35 miles. 40 easy flat on Sunday

M-F event week. Tuesday and Thursday, East easy 20 flat miles just to loosen the legs.

Figure by that point, I'm about as trained as I can get.

Now this was after 6 months of climbing 5,000 ft every Saturday. I planned way ahead for my event. Last couple weeks easy to save the legs.

I felt great

cobbwheels · Aug 24, 2023

Mr. Beanz said:
I planned way ahead for my event.

It always works.

This is the "Taper" protocol for marathon but works just as well for cycling but would require planning ahead of the event.

How to perfect your marathon taper – 11 tips for marathon runners of all experience levels

Is the two-week taper enough for a marathon? How big a reduction in mileage should you aim for? The final weeks of marathon training can be confusing. Here is our guide to the mysterious world of doing a little bit less...

www.runnersworld.com

There are variations to the taper. For example, the last "easy" training week before the event would have long training session on Wednesday and a short but punchy session on Friday the day before the event. Not just to loosen the legs but to loosen everything including the cardiovascular system and mental conditioning.

Fourlegsgood2wheelsbad · Aug 25, 2023

cobbwheels said:
Primer or "taper" day is coming! 1x5 minutes Z3 to Z4 effort.

Just want to say, careful not to over-do this. This shouldn't include strength training. It can ruin your big ride the next day if you come out of this session with sore muscles.

Personally, I do this in 4 min, 30 sec in Z3 using a bit harder gear. Something I can spin at ~80 rpm cadence and raise my HR to Z3. This gear inches or gear ratio is hard enough but not hard that I'm in pain the entire time. In fact, there should be no pain at all. You should be breathing hard in Z3 heart rate, yet, no pain, no soreness in the legs. The remaining 30 seconds is a seated sprint at 160 to 180 rpm cadence in Z5 using the same gear ratio/inches as I used in the Z3 interval.

Avoid doing standing sprint using harder gears at lower cadence rpm in this training session. It can compromise your next day performance even if you don't end up sore.

15 minutes easy warm up before the 5 minute primer session. Cooldown after is optional. Personally, I don't do cool downs.

I'd have died and fallen off the bike having done what you'd described!!!
Had dropped heavier lifting for time being , till Oct 1st. Today rode the hill climb race course in about 5 minutes faster than last attempt.

Still not meeting my time goal .

All this stuff complicated.

Mr. Beanz said:
I'm not a technical guy but my event was 100 miles 10,000 ft gain.

I did 7,000 ft 2 weeks before the event. Flat easy 40 next day.

Week before, 3,000 ft on Saturday 35 miles. 40 easy flat on Sunday

M-F event week. Tuesday and Thursday, East easy 20 flat miles just to loosen the legs.

Figure by that point, I'm about as trained as I can get.

Now this was after 6 months of climbing 5,000 ft every Saturday. I planned way ahead for my event. Last couple weeks easy to save the legs.

I felt greatView attachment 6711

5000 ft every Saturday , gulp!

cobbwheels · Aug 26, 2023

Fourlegsgood2wheelsbad said:
I'd have died and fallen off the bike having done what you'd described!!!
Had dropped heavier lifting for time being , till Oct 1st. Today rode the hill climb race course in about 5 minutes faster than last attempt.

Still not meeting my time goal .

All this stuff complicated.

5000 ft every Saturday , gulp!

5 minutes is A LOT if we're talking of improvement within just a few weeks, congratulations!

The key to make lifting work with cycling is you feel fresh during the repetitions and right after the reps. Little to no soreness/discomfort/pain from the beginning to the end of the lifting session. This means you cut back on the weights and reduce the number of reps and you must also avoid lifting if your muscles are still sore from a ride or still having DOMS. Once you've settled on the training, you can then increase weight in small increments every two weeks. Resist the temptation to add bigger increments of weight because you're not getting sore. You goal with strength training for cycling is NOT to get sore but to work up your strength very progressively.

Yet, it's totally fine to go all out strength training with your arms. You barely exert any effort with your arms anyway while climbing so you'll be fine even if it's sore.

It takes practice to sprint seated at ~180 rpm. It's part of training of pro track sprinters. Track sprinters do the training at >200 rpm.

For me it's useful for hitting zone 5 without putting too much stress on the leg muscles because you need to be on easier gears to hit those high cadences. Additionally zone 5 intervals are best for inducing post-workout "afterburn". It's the most time efficient way to burn calories. Best training stimulant for release of the body's natural "Human Growth Hormone", and also best stimulant for release of the body's natural antioxidants to help reduce inflammation and hasten post-workout recovery and any existing DOMS you are having. Ofc, you still need to do your base training in addition to these.

cobbwheels · Aug 26, 2023

One simple hack I have with climbing is NOT to look ahead. Just look towards the front wheel.

It's a psychological trick to make the road look flat and NOT knowing if you're near or far the summit or the end of the climb can seem to make the climb feel shorter. Generally seems to reduce perceived effort of the climb. Allows you to push harder and climb faster.

However, this is only safe if you're absolutely sure no vehicle is going to cross into your lane and hit you head-on and if you have good peripheral vision.

Mr. Beanz · Aug 26, 2023

Fourlegsgood2wheelsbad said:
I

5000 ft every Saturday , gulp!

I also did some mtb after work on weekdays. Once or twice a week depending on how I felt. 5 miles with 2,000 ft gain. Pretty rough as you can tell from the sweat. Mtb does help gain some mad roadie descending skills.

Fourlegsgood2wheelsbad · Aug 26, 2023

cobbwheels said:
5 minutes is A LOT if we're talking of improvement within just a few weeks, congratulations!

The key to make lifting work with cycling is you feel fresh during the repetitions and right after the reps. Little to no soreness/discomfort/pain from the beginning to the end of the lifting session. This means you cut back on the weights and reduce the number of reps and you must also avoid lifting if your muscles are still sore from a ride or still having DOMS. Once you've settled on the training, you can then increase weight in small increments every two weeks. Resist the temptation to add bigger increments of weight because you're not getting sore. You goal with strength training for cycling is NOT to get sore but to work up your strength very progressively.

Yet, it's totally fine to go all out strength training with your arms. You barely exert any effort with your arms anyway while climbing so you'll be fine even if it's sore.

It takes practice to sprint seated at ~180 rpm. It's part of training of pro track sprinters. Track sprinters do the training at >200 rpm.

For me it's useful for hitting zone 5 without putting too much stress on the leg muscles because you need to be on easier gears to hit those high cadences. Additionally zone 5 intervals are best for inducing post-workout "afterburn". It's the most time efficient way to burn calories. Best training stimulant for release of the body's natural "Human Growth Hormone", and also best stimulant for release of the body's natural antioxidants to help reduce inflammation and hasten post-workout recovery and any existing DOMS you are having. Ofc, you still need to do your base training in addition to these.

Gosh there's a ton of info here. Going take a while to digest. Hmmm I recorded 180 rpm yesterday on my decent . Though it to be error ?!

Fourlegsgood2wheelsbad · Aug 26, 2023

Fourlegsgood2wheelsbad said:
Gosh there's a ton of info here. Going take a while to digest. Hmmm I recorded 180 rpm yesterday on my decent . Though it to be error ?!

On the zone 5 thing , well .... that's going to be a while . I'm getting only fractions of zone 5 in my climbs and rides

Fourlegsgood2wheelsbad · Aug 26, 2023

Mr. Beanz said:
I also did some mtb after work on weekdays. Once or twice a week depending on how I felt. 5 miles with 2,000 ft gain. Pretty rough as you can tell from the sweat. Mtb does help gain some mad roadie descending skills.

View attachment 6713

Yes I use those MTB skills every road ride , expecting gravel in a turn or going into a skid recover ect. Hopping a cattle guard, road seam pine cone ect Some time you just cant swerve and have to go over stuff .

cobbwheels · Aug 26, 2023

Fourlegsgood2wheelsbad said:
Gosh there's a ton of info here. Going take a while to digest. Hmmm I recorded 180 rpm yesterday on my decent . Though it to be error ?!

It's relatively easy to hit 180 rpm if the resistance at the pedals is light enough. Definitely NOT an error!

the zone 5 thing , well .... that's going to be a while . I'm getting only fractions of zone 5 in my climbs and rides

You're doing fine. It's supposed to be really short, a tiny fraction of your rides. During sprint day training, I only get total of 3 minutes in zone 5 with rest periods in between. 6 x 30 second sprint intervals per day. 2 x 30 second sprint intervals on the day before a long ride to loose up my legs, lungs, and also my mind!

In order to avoid wrecking your muscles close to the event, you'll have to do those intervals seated in easier gears at ~180 rpm. Don't tense up at 180 rpm. Try to feel as "relaxed" as possible. Ofc, it's impossible to stay relaxed at zone 5 but you get my point!

Fourlegsgood2wheelsbad · Aug 26, 2023

cobbwheels said:
It's relatively easy to hit 180 rpm if the resistance at the pedals is light enough. Definitely NOT an error!

You're doing fine. It's supposed to be really short, a tiny fraction of your rides. During sprint day training, I only get total of 3 minutes in zone 5 with rest periods in between. 6 x 30 second sprint intervals per day. 2 x 30 second sprint intervals on the day before a long ride to loose up my legs, lungs, and also my mind!

But to avoid wrecking your muscles close to the event, you'll have to them seated in an easier gear at ~180 rpm.

I'd regularly recorded 145-160 delaying shifts until rpm dropped from the rolling hill in from of you. 180RPM really surprised me . I wont wreck myself , or at least try not to . Here's a little data from a ride. I'm fairly new back riding again and I don't know a lot of this zone stuff.

Fourlegsgood2wheelsbad · Aug 26, 2023

Fourlegsgood2wheelsbad said:
I'd regularly recorded 145-160 delaying shifts until rpm dropped from the rolling hill in from of you. 180RPM really surprised me . I wont wreck myself , or at least try not to . Here's a little data from a ride. I'm fairly new back riding again and I don't know a lot of this zone stuff.View attachment 6714

that was sustained effort , just 10 or so fairly steep miles uphill.

cobbwheels · Aug 26, 2023

Fourlegsgood2wheelsbad said:
I'd regularly recorded 145-160 delaying shifts until rpm dropped from the rolling hill in from of you. 180RPM really surprised me . I wont wreck myself , or at least try not to . Here's a little data from a ride. I'm fairly new back riding again and I don't know a lot of this zone stuff.View attachment 6714

You're used to high cadences and that's good.

Ironically, it's much safer to sprint zone 5 seated at much higher cadence than to sprint out of the saddle at much lower cadence. I even have to do it maneuvering around traffic and I do it without any foot retention on the pedals. Just plain flat pedals wearing crocs shoes.

You'll nail it with practice. Progressing little by little without getting beyond your comfort zone. It shouldn't be tensed up. Shake yourself loose like dancing. Don't try to keep still or you may end up wasting more energy just trying to keep still.

Fourlegsgood2wheelsbad · Aug 26, 2023

I'm an out in front sprinter - even as a kid 15 plus years old. Developed my own CaV style sprint- tossing the bike wildly . , I can sight down the down tube during as example if I lower my chin momentarily to gaze at crankshaft. Might just be just 10 -15 strokes torso out front but do that at in high speed sprint as well.. Nothing special IMHO .
I can't run the lower range of PSI for 28mm in front , I will feel the rim . As with some severe steep climbs like upper torso way out the front. We're not talking a long ways - just to get past the 17% section or too keep the bike in upper chainring over a roller. Get tire marks on shoes with clip-in even with clearance because of the steep angle my foot coming down at . Got abit of upper body strength for size . many will argue out of saddle not efficient. but there have been many pro's ( and amateurs as well) that can excel with this style . Others sit it all out. In my book you are doing it wrong when you are last . I'd sat in the parking lot at summit of yesterdays ride and watched countless approaches. It's a steep single lane , I can't see a right or wrong way .

Im expecting a fairly large ride tomorrow and a little hesitant.
This year has been crazy - since acquiring my new bike a few stats I was putting together reviewing my garmin data . I'm super pleased regardless how it might compare to others. If it's bragging so what. I know many are faster!
Lately more women have pushed me off the mountain top than men. Not literally , just demonstrated superior fitness over mine. On that uphill 12 mile stretch at least .
I stay quite humbled .

Laid bare -
Had new bike for 120 days
Climbed a pinch over 60,000 ft in 600 miles total to tonite ( rest day)
So if my math is close that one ride every 3 days of about 20 miles in about I think 90 minutes duration and about 2000ft of vertical. might be a slow 14MPH avg.
I failed math in HS so I might be corrected on that LOL

that avg seems to rise dramatically if I add some flats ( relative ) to my local training route. Here a happy house is a happy rider. I think your right about needing that
re-set cobbwheeels , feel like I'm hitting a wall .

What is nice about this forum its just us 3-4 or so and a little spam. So not to hard to find my post and replies. The reddit and FB makes hard to me as so so much has been added in just hours . Here I can sort of keep up , I like slow !

Fourlegsgood2wheelsbad · Aug 26, 2023

cobbwheels said:
You're used to high cadences and that's good.

Ironically, it's much safer to sprint zone 5 seated at much higher cadence than to sprint out of the saddle at much lower cadence. I even have to do it maneuvering around traffic and I do it without any foot retention on the pedals. Just plain flat pedals wearing crocs shoes.

You'll nail it with practice. Progressing little by little without getting beyond your comfort zone. It shouldn't be tensed up. Shake yourself loose like dancing. Don't try to keep still or you may end up wasting more energy just trying to keep still.

I'm the most un-still person on the bike. I see my support videos I'm wriggling like a snake to keep moving . Head shoulders a slight bob. May as well finish destroyed than " I could have gone harder". Not a racer of any kind , just 100% committed to myself & the bike when on it.

How many days to back off training before a race?

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