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Evidence overwhelmingly indicates Greg LeMond Doped....

post #1 of 122
Thread Starter 
Whatever the outcome maybe of the forthcoming investigations into the Lance Armstrong saga, it is too bad that LeMond won't be remembered for being a great cyclist, but instead as a great whiner & in the process turned into a pathetic curmudgeon. He’s been bested & ousted from his perch as the best cyclist ever to come out from America - deal with it.

While Greg throws insult after insult, hoping for it to stick to something, Lance is able to remain calm and let Greg lose his reputation. Lance keeps the higher ground and doesn't in dignify himself with a fight. If they both got into it verbally, nobody would look good.

With the same amount of proof that has been brought to light against Lance, I charge LeMond of doping as well.


-Explain, how in the course of a couple of days, mid 1989, he could go from being shelled out the back at even dropped by the sprinters in the mountains of the Giro to finishing on the podium during the final time trial - and then going onto win the Tour and the Worlds. Seeing Greg go up the final climb in the worlds just made a complete mockery of everyone in the race. An impressive piece of big gear climbing. The first half of the season is a complete disaster for Greg with many races not even finished and then "oh, I have an iron deficiency". I almost remember Greg almost quiting pro cycling during the early part of 1989 and his mystery overnight "recovery" from aenemia by vitamin B12 and iron shots from his soigneur, Otto, and coming back into form. Having suffered from aenemia and gone through similar 'shots' I know, like many others, that you don't just recover mystically overnight, or even over a few days... If Greg was given something, knowingly or not, for anemia and the resulting low hematocrit and hgb and it worked really fast - it certainly wasn't "iron shots". I could think of something that was out in the pro peloton that'd fit a rapid increase of performance. When you're dropped on all the mountain stages and do very poorly in the prologue and the first time trial of the Giro but 'mystically' come back for a podium finish in the final time trial then something, somewhere happened. So what did miraculously turn his form around overnight & what did he take?. I claim EPO. When you're talking about quitting the sport you know things are really bad.

- Gregs' increase in performance from a few shots of vitamins and iron in the hiney does not compute. Insinuate from that what you will... EPO might take weeks but there's always transfusions...

- And for someone who rides as hard as Greg, I don’t buy it for one second he rode it as training, look at his resume pre ’89, riding hard in every event.

-Whatever happened to the LeMond line of bicycles? That's right. It was sold to Trek which later became a sponsor of and exclusive builder for the United States Postal squad. As I recall that team had a fairly good American rider on it and soon after it began its association with U.S. Postal the LeMond line of bicycles practically disappeared off the face of the planet. I wonder if Mr. LeMond finds that annoying? Answer: YES! He sued Trek in 2008 and Trek counter-sued to sever the business relationship with LeMond because nobody wants to buy a bike with that mewling turds name painted on it. Yet another reason for LeMond's hatred of his better and his desire to see druggie Floyd succeed in destroying Armstrong? Get a life Greg, you use to be just irrelevant but now most American cycling fans think your a pathetic desperate loser.

-In his the book "Bad Blood", he seems to indicate he left the Tour because he could not keep up with the r-EPO era cyclists. Didn’t stop him challenging the dopers of Fignon &co of ’89 & ’90. The drug testing starts advancing & its suddenly “he could not keep up with the r-EPO era cyclists of ’94. BS.

-I remember one exchange between Greg and Lance when Lance said something like the following to Greg: "How is it that you have the fastest time trial ever in the Tour de France?" Greg didn't have much of a response. It's a good question though since if everyone was doping at the time and Greg's time trial was still faster, he's either genetically from another planet or he was also doping when he rode that time trial.

-He beat a man (Fignon) who has since admitted to doping in 1989. He had the fastest time trial of that length or greater for many years (including all the years he claimed were full of dopers) DESPITE the fact that if you watch it, he's rocking all over the place and very un-aero and using a flexier bike than today. He made up 58 seconds on Laurent Fignon (confessed doper), ultimately winning the race by 8 seconds. YEAH RIGHT.

- Were Fignon ('89) and Chiapucci ('90) denied their rightful place as winners of the TdF in 1989 and 1990 by an EPO doper? You need to answer these questions Mr. LeMond.

One big piece of "evidence" he gives for proving he was dope free and others doped was how just one year after he won the TDF, suddenly he was finishing in the pack and beaten by others he'd beaten his whole career. But, in 1990 Lemond won with an average speed of 38.621 kph. The next year, the Big Mig won at an avg speed of 38.747 kph. That's a 0.3% difference. 1/3 of a percent.

-As well, his claim that him finishing 7th the next year, and thus was beaten by dopers, doesn't hold up. If Big Mig was a doper, then wouldn't Lemond's claim also hold true for him? But Big Mig won 5 years in a row and then the next year was 11th, even bigger of a drop off than Lemond.

LeMond portrays himself as Mr. squeaky clean but like so many other riders, hes dirty as the next rider, make no quarms about it. So look on the bright side -- at least someone is "probing" Armstrong – unfortunately it's not you!.
post #2 of 122

Re: Evidence overwhelmingly indicates Greg LeMond Doped....

Well said!!!!!!! Excellent write up!
post #3 of 122
Thread Starter 

Re: Evidence overwhelmingly indicates Greg LeMond Doped....

Remaining defiant in the face (no pun intended) of dispair...

post #4 of 122

Re: Evidence overwhelmingly indicates Greg LeMond Doped....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormsgate View Post
Well said!!!!!!! Excellent write up!
yet he put's forth exactly the same arguements to support his case that Lemond doped, as others use to support the case that Lance doped...'evidence' that the Lance fanboi's dismiss when it doesn't suit their arguement...lame post that provides nothing further. Lets see what the investigation reveals...Lance in federal prison I'm tipping!
post #5 of 122

Re: Evidence overwhelmingly indicates Greg LeMond Doped....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapeau! View Post
Whatever the outcome maybe of the forthcoming investigations into the Lance Armstrong saga, it is too bad that LeMond won't be remembered for being a great cyclist, but instead as a great whiner & in the process turned into a pathetic curmudgeon. He’s been bested & ousted from his perch as the best cyclist ever to come out from America - deal with it.

While Greg throws insult after insult, hoping for it to stick to something, Lance is able to remain calm and let Greg lose his reputation. Lance keeps the higher ground and doesn't in dignify himself with a fight. If they both got into it verbally, nobody would look good.

With the same amount of proof that has been brought to light against Lance, I charge LeMond of doping as well.


-Explain, how in the course of a couple of days, mid 1989, he could go from being shelled out the back at even dropped by the sprinters in the mountains of the Giro to finishing on the podium during the final time trial - and then going onto win the Tour and the Worlds. Seeing Greg go up the final climb in the worlds just made a complete mockery of everyone in the race. An impressive piece of big gear climbing. The first half of the season is a complete disaster for Greg with many races not even finished and then "oh, I have an iron deficiency". I almost remember Greg almost quiting pro cycling during the early part of 1989 and his mystery overnight "recovery" from aenemia by vitamin B12 and iron shots from his soigneur, Otto, and coming back into form. Having suffered from aenemia and gone through similar 'shots' I know, like many others, that you don't just recover mystically overnight, or even over a few days... If Greg was given something, knowingly or not, for anemia and the resulting low hematocrit and hgb and it worked really fast - it certainly wasn't "iron shots". I could think of something that was out in the pro peloton that'd fit a rapid increase of performance. When you're dropped on all the mountain stages and do very poorly in the prologue and the first time trial of the Giro but 'mystically' come back for a podium finish in the final time trial then something, somewhere happened. So what did miraculously turn his form around overnight & what did he take?. I claim EPO. When you're talking about quitting the sport you know things are really bad.

- Gregs' increase in performance from a few shots of vitamins and iron in the hiney does not compute. Insinuate from that what you will... EPO might take weeks but there's always transfusions...

- And for someone who rides as hard as Greg, I don’t buy it for one second he rode it as training, look at his resume pre ’89, riding hard in every event.

-Whatever happened to the LeMond line of bicycles? That's right. It was sold to Trek which later became a sponsor of and exclusive builder for the United States Postal squad. As I recall that team had a fairly good American rider on it and soon after it began its association with U.S. Postal the LeMond line of bicycles practically disappeared off the face of the planet. I wonder if Mr. LeMond finds that annoying? Answer: YES! He sued Trek in 2008 and Trek counter-sued to sever the business relationship with LeMond because nobody wants to buy a bike with that mewling turds name painted on it. Yet another reason for LeMond's hatred of his better and his desire to see druggie Floyd succeed in destroying Armstrong? Get a life Greg, you use to be just irrelevant but now most American cycling fans think your a pathetic desperate loser.

-In his the book "Bad Blood", he seems to indicate he left the Tour because he could not keep up with the r-EPO era cyclists. Didn’t stop him challenging the dopers of Fignon &co of ’89 & ’90. The drug testing starts advancing & its suddenly “he could not keep up with the r-EPO era cyclists of ’94. BS.

-I remember one exchange between Greg and Lance when Lance said something like the following to Greg: "How is it that you have the fastest time trial ever in the Tour de France?" Greg didn't have much of a response. It's a good question though since if everyone was doping at the time and Greg's time trial was still faster, he's either genetically from another planet or he was also doping when he rode that time trial.

-He beat a man (Fignon) who has since admitted to doping in 1989. He had the fastest time trial of that length or greater for many years (including all the years he claimed were full of dopers) DESPITE the fact that if you watch it, he's rocking all over the place and very un-aero and using a flexier bike than today. He made up 58 seconds on Laurent Fignon (confessed doper), ultimately winning the race by 8 seconds. YEAH RIGHT.

- Were Fignon ('89) and Chiapucci ('90) denied their rightful place as winners of the TdF in 1989 and 1990 by an EPO doper? You need to answer these questions Mr. LeMond.

One big piece of "evidence" he gives for proving he was dope free and others doped was how just one year after he won the TDF, suddenly he was finishing in the pack and beaten by others he'd beaten his whole career. But, in 1990 Lemond won with an average speed of 38.621 kph. The next year, the Big Mig won at an avg speed of 38.747 kph. That's a 0.3% difference. 1/3 of a percent.

-As well, his claim that him finishing 7th the next year, and thus was beaten by dopers, doesn't hold up. If Big Mig was a doper, then wouldn't Lemond's claim also hold true for him? But Big Mig won 5 years in a row and then the next year was 11th, even bigger of a drop off than Lemond.

LeMond portrays himself as Mr. squeaky clean but like so many other riders, hes dirty as the next rider, make no quarms about it. So look on the bright side -- at least someone is "probing" Armstrong – unfortunately it's not you!.
Fignon doped, "cappuccino" doped - records from Conconni showed that many Carrera and ex-carrera riders doped under the guidence of professor Conconni.

I dig Greg and all that he did... But that turn around mid 89 was as dramtic as indurains improvement or lances' 1998 vuelta result. Gregs final time trial win is up there with Indurains 92 Luxembourg time trial apocalypse or lances' alpe dhuez ride. All way above and beyond to such an extent that you really have to wonder... Schleck was the same way after he dropped his chain atop the final mountain of the day. That ride back was just awesome. Passing guys who were putting out about 6w/kg like they were the local paper boy....

Having one domestique put out about 6.5w/kg for 10 minutes at the bottom of the Tourmalet (as measured via srm and graph on trainingpeeks)... and then have another go even faster up hill and then still have enough in the tank to attack. 20+ minutes of following 6.5w/kg and then shell the guys that could hold that pace... And this days after LeMond was going on about power levels falling back into the relms of the believable. On what planet is that power level attainable after 2.5 weeks and at the end of a hard stage?

Clean? Fark off.
post #6 of 122

Re: Evidence overwhelmingly indicates Greg LeMond Doped....

Like other allegations flyin' 'round about other riders, there's a lot of spray and little substance.

The worst part of doping in cycling is the rumormongering. Critical thought was chucked out the window 8 or 9 exits ago. This goes for fans as well as officials.
post #7 of 122

   Fignon and LeMond never used EPO in my opinon.  Fignon's book is very clear about this subject and I believe him because he is so honest and sincere in his writing.  To say LeMond couldn't work himself into shape in the 89 Giro and finish 2nd in the final time trial is nonsense.  LeMond had the fastest time tiral in tour history because...it was short (15 miles), slightly downhill, he used aero bars, an aero helmet,  the Tour de France was at stake and LeMond was one of the best against the clock. 

 

   It seems like Lance Armstrong wrote this piece of nonsense.

 

Ed Price

Santa Cruz California

post #8 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by steadyeddy53 View Post

   Fignon and LeMond never used EPO in my opinon.  Fignon's book is very clear about this subject and I believe him because he is so honest and sincere in his writing.  To say LeMond couldn't work himself into shape in the 89 Giro and finish 2nd in the final time trial is nonsense.  LeMond had the fastest time tiral in tour history because...it was short (15 miles), slightly downhill, he used aero bars, an aero helmet,  the Tour de France was at stake and LeMond was one of the best against the clock. 

 

   It seems like Lance Armstrong wrote this piece of nonsense.

 

Ed Price

Santa Cruz California


Lets forget Lance...

 

Ed, explain how one overcomes iron deficiency anemia during a three week grand tour when it's usually accepted that treatment, when resting, takes ~ 2 months and can take more than 1 year for the body to increase it's iron stores in bone marrow to 'normal' levels. Intravenously, it's a faster process but not that fast. Maybe you're privy to some treatment that only "the pro's" are in on. Honestly, I would really like to know how he did this.

 

 

 

 

You can't ride yourself into shape when you're anemic. It just isn't possible.

 

Fast forward ~6 weeks from his miraculous recovery mid-Giro and he produces what could well be classed as the time trial ride of the century and a few weeks after that a performance in a one day race the likes he had never done before or would never repeat again. Those are facts, not rumors, insinuations or gossip. He would never ride that good again. How do you go from an anemic state mid grand tour and do all this with in such a small time frame?

 

The fact that he had the fastest Tour time trial speed is irrelevant because it was the same for all the competitors but it was the margin that he beat them that was incredible. Almost as incredible as winning the 89 Tour's first, long, time trial and not even being out of breath immediately after getting off the bike:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl57qAfH09I

 

1hr 38minutes of TT fun on the bike and finishes looking like he's just completed the first part of his pre race warm up... Really? This man was anemic 4 weeks earlier?

 

I know there are some very clever people on here, some working in the medical field, some dealing with exercise physiology and some just plain smart... so, if anyone can explain how you go from zero (clinically anemic) to hero in a couple of weeks with a couple of B12 shots and a few iron tablets I'd really like to know how it's done.

post #9 of 122

he probable did, but:

the doping evidence would be ?

post #10 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitchy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormsgate View Post
Well said!!!!!!! Excellent write up!
yet he put's forth exactly the same arguements to support his case that Lemond doped, as others use to support the case that Lance doped...'evidence' that the Lance fanboi's dismiss when it doesn't suit their arguement...lame post that provides nothing further. Lets see what the investigation reveals...Lance in federal prison I'm tipping!


Yup.  Gotta love the peanut gallery.  ;)

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by swampy1970 View Post


Lets forget Lance...

 

Ed, explain how one overcomes iron deficiency anemia during a three week grand tour when it's usually accepted that treatment, when resting, takes ~ 2 months and can take more than 1 year for the body to increase it's iron stores in bone marrow to 'normal' levels. Intravenously, it's a faster process but not that fast. Maybe you're privy to some treatment that only "the pro's" are in on. Honestly, I would really like to know how he did this.

 

 

 

 

You can't ride yourself into shape when you're anemic. It just isn't possible.

 

Fast forward ~6 weeks from his miraculous recovery mid-Giro and he produces what could well be classed as the time trial ride of the century and a few weeks after that a performance in a one day race the likes he had never done before or would never repeat again. Those are facts, not rumors, insinuations or gossip. He would never ride that good again. How do you go from an anemic state mid grand tour and do all this with in such a small time frame?

 

The fact that he had the fastest Tour time trial speed is irrelevant because it was the same for all the competitors but it was the margin that he beat them that was incredible. Almost as incredible as winning the 89 Tour's first, long, time trial and not even being out of breath immediately after getting off the bike:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl57qAfH09I

 

1hr 38minutes of TT fun on the bike and finishes looking like he's just completed the first part of his pre race warm up... Really? This man was anemic 4 weeks earlier?

 

I know there are some very clever people on here, some working in the medical field, some dealing with exercise physiology and some just plain smart... so, if anyone can explain how you go from zero (clinically anemic) to hero in a couple of weeks with a couple of B12 shots and a few iron tablets I'd really like to know how it's done.


Wow Swampy.  Really?  This argument is in the same vein as those against Lance -- using only comparative performances.  And the counterargument of the Lance fanboys are all the same -- counterarguments that you too have used in defence of Lance.

 

In support of Lemond, his VO2 max was documented to be among the highest, if not the highest, around.  Lance's was shown to be not.  Lance was also shown to be just as heavy or heavier post-cancer.

 

So you demand "evidence" against Lance, but spew anecdotes on Lemond.

 

Also, to the OP, you "call EPO"?  EPO in 1989?  No.

 

post #11 of 122



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sappie66 View Post




Yup.  Gotta love the peanut gallery.  ;)

 




Wow Swampy.  Really?  This argument is in the same vein as those against Lance -- using only comparative performances.  And the counterargument of the Lance fanboys are all the same -- counterarguments that you too have used in defence of Lance.

 

In support of Lemond, his VO2 max was documented to be among the highest, if not the highest, around.  Lance's was shown to be not.  Lance was also shown to be just as heavy or heavier post-cancer.

 

So you demand "evidence" against Lance, but spew anecdotes on Lemond.

 

Also, to the OP, you "call EPO"?  EPO in 1989?  No.

 


Comparative performances - you mean just like the comparative performances that Greg himself points to as being the key to showing that riders dope?


EPO was in the pro peloton in the late 80's. Moser blood doped in 84. The US Olympic Team blood doped in 84. The Russians and Germans were rumoured to have been doing that even before that. The first rider banned for EPO use was in 88. Riders such as Eddy Plankaert admitted to using it in 88... some acknowledge it was in use within cycling in 87 and maybe even 86. Before you try a witty comeback - get your facts straight. Some of us were racing back then and read about it as it happened. Some of us knew people that had said that a new drug was making the rounds...

 

I stated it before but I'll put it as a question to you. How do you ride yourself, during a three week grand tour, namely the 89 Giro, from an anemic state, which he admitted he was and took the "vitamin B12 injections" for and quickly turn around within that same race get yourself into a condition where you can podium during the final TT? Just answer that simple question.

 

Given that it's near impossible to recover from anemia in a rested state during that time frame, how do you do it when out of form and struggling? How?

 

How do you then carry on said recovery to post the fastest ever tour time trial at the very end of the Tour - only never to repeat the feats of such amazing performance again?

 

Remember, Greg was thinking about retiring from not just the race - but the sport, mid way through that Giro. Weeks later he's posting speeds at the end of a Tour that not even a wind tunnel tested Cancellara on modern equipment can beat when he's fresh, unless its a short prologue effort.

 

If you've ever seen the Champs Elysees in person you'll wonder how you'd ride up the top part in the 13 sprocket in a big ring that was, knowing Greg and his liking for dinner plates up front, bigger than a 53. After 2,500miles - weeks after being anemic.

 

Years ago I was diagnosed anemic and went through mainly oral B12 supplementation and it took forever to get "better". Sure B12 via injection is faster, IF you have that type of anemia, but not as fast as Greg's performances seem to claim and most likely not under those circumstances. Note - we're not talking about a "healthy" person here that just went faster - we're talking about someone that had a low blood count and was racing a three week Grand Tour - where's it's acknowledged that values decrease naturally, not increase. If B12 fixed that situation, everyone would be taking it by the bucket load. It doesn't when you're healthy and racing a three week grand tour - it doesn't especially when you're not healthy.

 

 

Just for the record I liked watching Greg race back in the day almost as much as I did watching Lance. I always felt that Greg could have been a little more on the attacking side though. I was that much of a LeMond fan boy - I even bought the shoes (brancale)

 

Me almost having being knocked off during a National Hill climb.

NationalHillClimb001.jpg

 

(Yes, it was fecking cold and those are thermal armwarmers and thermal socks.)

 

The frame that followed the POS above was even painted to match LeMonds '89 Tour winning frame - well, the steel one he used before the mountain stages... I still have it hanging up in the garage... Me a Greg hater? Really?

 

LeMondoframe.jpg

 

Personally, I think he throws a little too many stones in a glass house he once occupied.

 

I would love it if someone would actually point me to evidence that someone in Greg's position in the 89 Giro can, with just a couple of B12 shots can overcome an anemic condition and post performances that they'd never equal again. I really would - but I'm not holding my breath. I gave up looking for that explination years ago... Maybe you, as a fellow Greg fan could point me to that specific literature.

post #12 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by sappie66 View Post


Yup.  Gotta love the peanut gallery.  ;)

 


Wow Swampy.  Really?  This argument is in the same vein as those against Lance -- using only comparative performances.  And the counterargument of the Lance fanboys are all the same -- counterarguments that you too have used in defence of Lance.

 

In support of Lemond, his VO2 max was documented to be among the highest, if not the highest, around.  Lance's was shown to be not.  Lance was also shown to be just as heavy or heavier post-cancer.

 

So you demand "evidence" against Lance, but spew anecdotes on Lemond.

 

Also, to the OP, you "call EPO"?  EPO in 1989?  No.

 


Unfortunately this is par for the course, sappie.

 

The poster in question operates on double standards throughout - he was whinging about how the Italian federation is dealing with Basso.rolleyes.gif

 

post #13 of 122
changing a little bit the subject, have you guys seen the weekends and todays mountain stages of the Vuelta... amazing spectacle !
back to Greg Lemond, i can tell you guys that his training method in his complete book of cycling works, it does marvels to your training,
the only problem i had was to maintain the top fitness level once you reach it, if you follow the book you will reach top fitness !
post #14 of 122
yes. I like to assume they're innocent until proven guilty. If you were accused of something but were innocent, you would ask, "where's the evidence?" There is no Lemond has evidence he has taken anything. His first TDF he was a contender for the win, unlike Arms, Indurain. So he had no Need to dope. In fact I believe other riders (first the Italians) started doping because Lemond was winning everything. like Moser doped to "beat" merckx's record.
post #15 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by needawheel View Post

yes. I like to assume they're innocent until proven guilty. If you were accused of something but were innocent, you would ask, "where's the evidence?" There is no Lemond has evidence he has taken anything. His first TDF he was a contender for the win, unlike Arms, Indurain. So he had no Need to dope. In fact I believe other riders (first the Italians) started doping because Lemond was winning everything. like Moser doped to "beat" merckx's record.

 

Blood doping was around before Moser. The irony with the Italians and doping is that CONI, who is now becoming intent on handing out the stiffest penalties possible actually worked with Conconi (Ferrari's mentor) to help the Italians with a planned doping program for the 92 winter Olympics. Now if anyone so much is rumoured to have worked with Ferrari then it's a ban and you're off the Italian National Squad. ROTF.gif

 

My only beef with LeMond is 89 is how do you go from being anemic in a Grand Tour (the Giro) and suffering, not just in that race but the entire season, to finishing on the podium in the final TT a week later and the a mere 7 weeks later winning the Tour with the fastest ever TT. I think it still is the fastest ever TT - and if anyone says "it was all down hill", I'm gonna say "get your bike out and ride up the Champs Elysees" - that ain't no downhill.

 

Greg cites his soigneur giving him a couple of B12 injections, but it just doesn't work that way, especially if you're in the middle of a Grand Tour and your hemocrit level is supposed to be dropping. I remember being at a friends house watching it on Eurosport and feeling mixed emotions - I wanted him to win but how was he doing this after his "anemia" and beating guys by such a margin. I'd been diagnosed anemic prior to 89 and I just didn't get how Greg was doing what he was doing...

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