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Titanium vs. Carbon-Fiber - Page 3

post #31 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Froze View Post




 I asked this 3 times because I don't believe you.  


 

I could not care whether you believe me or not. The bikes did rust. Did not rust through, naturally, but did rust.Surface rust. If you do not believe me. Fine. And kids bikes left out in the weather DO rust. 

post #32 of 91



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Froze View Post




Where do you live that this kind of rust would appear?  

 

My oldest bike is 26 years old steel race bike with over 150,000 miles on it, the first 18 years it spent time with me on the coast of California, the last 8 years in Indiana, there isn't a spot of rust anywhere and it's been ridden in rain.  My second oldest steel bike is 23 years old it has about 35k on it and spent the same years in Calif and Indiana, again no rust.  I have cheap kids bikes that sat out in the rain for many years and though they have rust is strictly light surface rust.  

 

So again where do you live that would make a steel frame rust out in just 2 years?  I had a steel bike for 20 years all in Calif., it was my beater that I left locked up and parked outside and I rode it on the beach right in the salt water and salt spray and never bothered to wash it off when I got home.  I left it in Calif because there was some rust flakes in the bottom bracket, but none externally.

 

So again where do you live that would rust out a bike in 2 years.  I asked this 3 times because I don't believe you.  There are kids bikes here in Indiana left outside in backyards getting covered with snow year after year after year after year and the kids ride them every summer.  NO RUST!!


I have a 653 frame that was rust free when I left England 11 years ago and oddly, after hanging up in the garage for the past few years, they've started to rust and I'm in "low humidity central" - not too far from Sacramento, CA.

 

Steel will rust in the presence of moisture and air, unless it's stainless steel - where the high chromium content helps reduce oxidation. It's a simple scientific fact. Not rumour, not "forum lore", FACT.

post #33 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by vspa View Post

In the past some top Italian brands like Benotto had an affordable line that had nothing to do with bikes ridden by the pros. Those were built in Mexico, were heavier and yes they did rust. 

A quality-tubing steel bike will not rust on normal conditions, i have a 50+ years old steel track bike made by Frejus in good condition. 

Froze reported likewise,



Exactly, but even the one bike I rode in the salt ocean spray and water was a Schwinn World Traveller...not exactly quality tubing, I bought new and cheap so I could trash it and not feel bad about it.  I would rinse the bike off specially when sand got on the chain!  But the point is the darn thing held up.  And by the way, the last 8 years of it it's life it spent hanging in a garage too and nothing abnormal happened to it in regards to rust. 

 

There's a bike on another forum that someone bought recently that is trying to figure out what make it is because there's no paint left, and instead it's covered with a dark patina.  We figured out it was built between 1885 and 1918.  I think, though I'm probably wrong, that it's a 1918 Schwinn Admiral track bike, probably made of gas pipe with internal pinned lugs.  And guess what?  It's not rusted out, in fact according to the buyer it's still ridable if he can find the original type of wheels, brakes, chain and bottom bracket (if they used one) he has the crank.

post #34 of 91

I don't see any advantages to CF other than aerodynamic shapes and slight weight savings, so if those are more important than longevity and ride quality than CF may work for you.   But CF has too many downsides IMO especially when you consider the wear factors and ease of damage which can most times not be repaired.    Titanium and even the maraging and biphase stainless steels like Cinelli is using and the Reynolds 953 are very interesting and should be excellent if you can afford one.   I am building a new bike and was originally going with a high end steel frame but have switched to Titanium.  I chose a Lynskey Ti Sportive frameset and will report on it when it comes in and I can complete the build on it.

post #35 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by vjbknife View Post

I don't see any advantages to CF other than aerodynamic shapes and slight weight savings, so if those are more important than longevity and ride quality than CF may work for you.  



Carbon fiber does offer very good vibration damping compared with metals.  One way to demonstrate this is to tap it with your fingernail.  A metal frame will resonate, but one made of carbon fiber will not.

post #36 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by pTricky View Post





Carbon fiber does offer very good vibration damping compared with metals.  One way to demonstrate this is to tap it with your fingernail.  A metal frame will resonate, but one made of carbon fiber will not.

This such a bogus statement it isn't even funny.  What you need to do is read this: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html  There's more about comfort then tapping a frame with a fingernail.

post #37 of 91

Sheldon explains the ringing of a steel frame, i could add that great steel tubing rings more or less like crystal, normal steel tubing will ring less and shorter. But this is true for steel, i don't about testing other materials in this way,

post #38 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by pTricky View Post





Carbon fiber does offer very good vibration damping compared with metals.  One way to demonstrate this is to tap it with your fingernail.  A metal frame will resonate, but one made of carbon fiber will not.

 This only true of high frequency vibrations and not bumps from road conditions where a well designed metal frame can absorb vibrations to a much greater degree than a very stiff CF.   I think CF frames feel like you are riding right on the road with no tires on your rims, feeling every little pebble and crack.   To be honest though, the biggest factor in vibration reduction is tire size and pressure.
 

post #39 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Froze View Post



This such a bogus statement it isn't even funny.  What you need to do is read this: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html  There's more about comfort then tapping a frame with a fingernail.


To quote that particular page: "Damping is the tendency of ringing to die out. All metal frames have very low damping -- they ring long enough to produce a clear tone. A carbon-fiber frame will give a dull sound if tapped, because carbon fiber has more damping than metal. This may affect the feel to some degree, though much less at the low frequencies which affect frame feel."  

 

Care to explain how that contradicts in any way what I said?

Also, I wasn't suggesting that this would be a huge factor, only that it can potentially make some sort of difference.

 

On the whole, I am not convinced that carbon fiber is a sensible choice for most cyclists, but it does have some (although slight) redeeming qualities.

post #40 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by pTricky View Post




To quote that particular page: "Damping is the tendency of ringing to die out. All metal frames have very low damping -- they ring long enough to produce a clear tone. A carbon-fiber frame will give a dull sound if tapped, because carbon fiber has more damping than metal. This may affect the feel to some degree, though much less at the low frequencies which affect frame feel."  

 

Care to explain how that contradicts in any way what I said?

Also, I wasn't suggesting that this would be a huge factor, only that it can potentially make some sort of difference.

 

On the whole, I am not convinced that carbon fiber is a sensible choice for most cyclists, but it does have some (although slight) redeeming qualities.



You don't test the quality of a bike by using a fingernail, that's what was bogus.  And if CF tubing was sooooooo comfortable to ride then someone long before now would have made a CF touring bike designed to be loaded with 60 or so pounds and ride more comfortable then steel.  They don't make CF touring bikes because their not as comfortable regardless of whatever dampening it can or cannot do.  And if you would have read the site completely you would have discovered that instead of cherry picking a small phrase to "prove" your right. You see you missed the part where it says this: Rubber and flesh are both highly damped -- and so the greatest damping in a bicycle/rider system by far is in the tires and the rider's body, unless the bicycle has suspension.  (ok I can't turn off the italics, or the graying, or the caps, weird).

 

And you missed this: 

  • Tire choice. Wider, softer tires make more difference to ride comfort than anything to do with the frame. Unfortunately, many newer sport bikes are poorly designed when it comes to tire clearance. For the last decade or more there has been a fad to build frames with very tight tire clearance, although there is no performance advantage whatsoever to such a design. Such bikes cannot accept anything but super skinny tires, and, as a result, there's no way they can ever be really comfortable. See my Article on Tires
  • Saddle choice. See my Article on Saddles.
  • Frame geometry. Generally, frames with longer chainstays, and less vertical seat-tube and head-tube angles are more comfortable. This doesn't make them any slower, but may reduce maneuverability (also known as twitchiness.)
  • Rider positioning and technique in riding over bumps. See my Article on Pain and Cycling
  • Suspension, if the bicycle has it. A sprung saddle or suspension seatpost also can make a big difference.

But steel is preferred in touring bikes is because of the way it dampens, all materials dampen just in different ways, it reduces the tendency to wobble at high speeds under loads.  And even Sheldon, who owned many bikes said his most comfortable bike was a 1916 Mead Ranger and it was only a tad heavier then his other bikes.

 

And you missed serviceability at the Sheldon site where he states:  Titanium, while costly, is generally the most durable material choice.

 

So if a person was choosing between CF and TI and wanted durability, TI is the way to go. 

post #41 of 91

Quote:
Originally Posted by Froze View Post





You don't test the quality of a bike by using a fingernail, that's what was bogus. 



I wasn't saying it was a test of overall quality, just damping (two completely different properties).  I meant it solely as a demonstration of the intrinsic properties of the materials.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Froze View Post

And if CF tubing was sooooooo comfortable to ride then someone long before now would have made a CF touring bike designed to be loaded with 60 or so pounds and ride more comfortable then steel.  They don't make CF touring bikes because their not as comfortable regardless of whatever dampening it can or cannot do.

 

Carbon does not make sense for touring bikes for a variety of reasons, of which comfort is certainly one, but durability is probably greater.  There are, however, some carbon bikes that are supposed to be fairly comfortable.  The Scott CR1, for example, has been praised as being rather comfortable by most reviewers.

 

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Froze View Post

And if you would have read the site completely you would have discovered that instead of cherry picking a small phrase to "prove" your right. You see you missed the part where it says this: Rubber and flesh are both highly damped -- and so the greatest damping in a bicycle/rider system by far is in the tires and the rider's body, unless the bicycle has suspension.  (ok I can't turn off the italics, or the graying, or the caps, weird).

 

.  I did read the whole article.  But even without reading it, I could have figured it out from common sense.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Froze View Post

And you missed this: 

  • Tire choice. Wider, softer tires make more difference to ride comfort than anything to do with the frame. Unfortunately, many newer sport bikes are poorly designed when it comes to tire clearance. For the last decade or more there has been a fad to build frames with very tight tire clearance, although there is no performance advantage whatsoever to such a design. Such bikes cannot accept anything but super skinny tires, and, as a result, there's no way they can ever be really comfortable. See my Article on Tires
  • Saddle choice. See my Article on Saddles.
  • Frame geometry. Generally, frames with longer chainstays, and less vertical seat-tube and head-tube angles are more comfortable. This doesn't make them any slower, but may reduce maneuverability (also known as twitchiness.)
  • Rider positioning and technique in riding over bumps. See my Article on Pain and Cycling
  • Suspension, if the bicycle has it. A sprung saddle or suspension seatpost also can make a big difference.

But steel is preferred in touring bikes is because of the way it dampens, all materials dampen just in different ways, it reduces the tendency to wobble at high speeds under loads.  And even Sheldon, who owned many bikes said his most comfortable bike was a 1916 Mead Ranger and it was only a tad heavier then his other bikes.

 

 

 

I think perhaps you were reading more into my post than was really there.  I wasn't suggesting that we should all go buy carbon frames because of the dampening properties.  I know there are much bigger changes that can be made elsewhere in the bike.  My point was merely that, although carbon is not necessarily the perfect material for frame building, it does have some good properties  (after all, even when you buy a steel or aluminum or titanium road bike, you will still get a carbon fork).  Selection of frame materials is fairly complex, with many variables, and there are some where carbon will outperform even titanium.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Froze View Post

And you missed serviceability at the Sheldon site where he states:  Titanium, while costly, is generally the most durable material choice.

 

Again, I have read this.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Froze View Post
So if a person was choosing between CF and TI and wanted durability, TI is the way to go. 

I completely agree, and if you look at my previous posts you will see that this has been my point all along.

post #42 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by vjbknife View Post

I don't see any advantages to CF other than aerodynamic shapes and slight weight savings, so if those are more important than longevity and ride quality than CF may work for you.   But CF has too many downsides IMO especially when you consider the wear factors and ease of damage which can most times not be repaired.    Titanium and even the maraging and biphase stainless steels like Cinelli is using and the Reynolds 953 are very interesting and should be excellent if you can afford one.   I am building a new bike and was originally going with a high end steel frame but have switched to Titanium.  I chose a Lynskey Ti Sportive frameset and will report on it when it comes in and I can complete the build on it.



Great choice.....the Lynskey Sportiva frame has my interest as well for the next bike.   A high-quality ti frame, with a bit more relaxed geometry and eyelets for a rear rack and fenders just seems to suit my future use better than another race-oriented frame.  Since I've had corrosion and paint issues with my older steel frames, I like the corrosion resistance and durable finish of a brushed-ti frame.  But mainly I like Lynskey because they make really beautiful ti frames over in Chattanooga, not because there is anything really wrong with CF.  After all, for the most critical part of the bike, the front fork, Lynskey uses CF.   

post #43 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by pTricky View Post

 

Carbon does not make sense for touring bikes for a variety of reasons, of which comfort is certainly one, but durability is probably greater.  There are, however, some carbon bikes that are supposed to be fairly comfortable.  The Scott CR1, for example, has been praised as being rather comfortable by most reviewers.

 

I think perhaps you were reading more into my post than was really there.  I My point was merely that, although carbon is not necessarily the perfect material for frame building, it does have some good properties  (after all, even when you buy a steel or aluminum or titanium road bike, you will still get a carbon fork).  Selection of frame materials is fairly complex, with many variables, and there are some where carbon will outperform even titanium.

 

I completely agree, and if you look at my previous posts you will see that this has been my point all along.


First, you may have been right, I may have read more into then what there really was, so sorry if I came across gruff.

 

Another very comfortable bike that has gotten very high marks for comfort are the Specialized series of CF bikes with the Zertz inserts.

 

Even though most bikes today come with CF forks, I personally don't like it, but I have a bike with one because it came that way.  But I have to admit that if I ever crash the bike I'm going to be very leery of the fork, and if the fork took a hard impact or there's a deep scratch I will probably not risk it and just replace the fork.

 

And frame comfort is too complex just to pile up one material over another, because it involves frame material, thickness of material, geometry, materials used in stays and forks, wheels, tires, PSI in tires, seat, and on and on and on.

 

But all the bikes I own are either steel or TI, I have one odd duck which is all AL, including the fork, that I'm someday going to turn it into a functioning racing bike, right now it's just frame and fork hanging in my basement.

 

I usually only quickly glance at all the posts because they get so numerous it gets tedious and time consuming to read them all, so I did miss your previous posts.

 

post #44 of 91

Aircraft such as the Boeing 787 are being made from carbon fiber. This can lead two directions. On one side, the aerospace industry will invest a lot more money into Carbon Fiber R&D than the bicycle industry so that should lead to improvements in strength. On the other hand, carbon fiber will become more scarce. This will drive up the price.  Eventually old aircraft will be taken out of service and the carbon fiber will be recycled.  Probably the recycled material will go into the bicycle industry.  I doubt that recycled carbon fiber will be as good as new.

 

post #45 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Froze View Post


 

Another very comfortable bike that has gotten very high marks for comfort are the Specialized series of CF bikes with the Zertz inserts.

 

 

And frame comfort is too complex just to pile up one material over another, because it involves frame material, thickness of material, geometry, materials used in stays and forks, wheels, tires, PSI in tires, seat, and on and on and on.

 

 

I totally agree with your assessment of the complexity of the total comfort factor of a bike.

 


I have a Specialized 2006 Sirrus Pro:

aluminum frame with carbon fork, seat stays, seat post and handlebars.   Zertz inserts are on the first three items.   I generally like the way that this bike rides and use it quite a lot.

image2.aspx?w=500&h=500&filename=2006-Specialized-Sirrus-Pro.jpg&f=Photos

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhk2 View Post


Great choice.....the Lynskey Sportiva frame has my interest as well for the next bike.   A high-quality ti frame, with a bit more relaxed geometry and eyelets for a rear rack and fenders just seems to suit my future use better than another race-oriented frame.  Since I've had corrosion and paint issues with my older steel frames, I like the corrosion resistance and durable finish of a brushed-ti frame.  But mainly I like Lynskey because they make really beautiful ti frames over in Chattanooga, not because there is anything really wrong with CF.  After all, for the most critical part of the bike, the front fork, Lynskey uses CF.   


Yeah I am pretty exited about getting the Lynskey frame, it was a good bit more than I originally wanted to pay but I think it will last as long as I will and ride great the whole time.   It should be in late this week and I have everything ready to go onto it.   My wheel builds came out great and they are tough as nails; dish and tension was right on and they are straight as an arrow - Dura Ace hubs with DT Swiss TK540 Rims.  I have the 7900 Dura Ace group to install but it will go smooth and next weekend I should be riding it.

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