Are we there yet? - Page 65

Quote:

Originally Posted by swampy1970 

 

The hours have to start adding up - rides 3 and 4 (aka stupid and stupider) in the brevet series I'm looking at are ~260 miles and ~380 miles. The first aint that hilly so it shouldn't be as hard as the Alta Alpina but the latter ride starts at night and head to the foothills of the Sierras. Two nights of riding and a 40 hour limit - something I've not done before...

 

 

I will be interested in how this goes for you. I was amazed at your events for last year.

People have asked me why I train the way I do if I am just a recreational cyclist, but I have come to respect in worthy events one must have fairly good fitness because of lot of the notable events have a cut off time and if you don't make it to that point you have just wasted a lot of effort and potential expenses. Most of the events on the east coast a person in half good shape can make the cut off point/time. So I can appreciate what you are striving to do. That is some serious business for a goal.

best wishes

@swampy, I will continue to keep a look out on ebay for those bars.  I heard some great things about them and now I see why.  Comfy is the  name of the game for me.

@felt, love the video dude.   That is a really long bike path!  Very well maintained also.  Did you prefer it over the roads?  Around here they are just too crowded to really get in a any good miles but yours looks not that bad.

Best wishes to all in hitting those goals...

-js

I like the path in a sense that it is flat (like being on the trainer so it throws out the variability of terrrain), but it does get populated. The reason I put in the clips of the intersections and people was to show that there is an issue with being able to do sustained blocks of time at level and it gets worse as the weather improves. I could have put in more video where I was out in remote areas doing long stretches and seeing no one else and fewer intersections.

It really to unsafe to use for training when it gets that populated. Because it is flat and I had a tailwind on the return there was a point that I was over 24 mph and only at 174 watts. If I was more toward my FT I would be going an unsafe speed when families or others are using the path. With that tailwind and spinning at my comfortable rpm with the gearing I could have been doing close to 30 mph. Once a cyclist can get to about 30 miles out from the zero mile marker it is far enough to be out there alone or with random other cyclists.

Right now my best route is out in a rural area and I have found the flattest section with some low rolling hills that I can use for long sustained blocks of effort.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider 

I will be interested in how this goes for you. I was amazed at your events for last year.

 

People have asked me why I train the way I do if I am just a recreational cyclist, but I have come to respect in worthy events one must have fairly good fitness because of lot of the notable events have a cut off time and if you don't make it to that point you have just wasted a lot of effort and potential expenses. Most of the events on the east coast a person in half good shape can make the cut off point/time. So I can appreciate what you are striving to do. That is some serious business for a goal.

 

best wishes

 

Thanks Felt. :)

While the events that I ride are long they all fall back on the simple rule of pacing - you just have to remember to ride at "all day pace" from the get go and not after mile 70. I have no doubt that you could finish something like the Death Ride or the Davis Double.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsirabella 

All I can say is amazing day on the trainer with numbers I did not think possible a couple months ago.  I think I am really getting to figure this TSS/CTL charting and how I can make it work for me.  The other thing I am starting to realize is that in the past the lack of L3 in my diet may have been holding me back.

 

I have not had a TSS score over 200 since starting the 3 hour rides, first one came today with a 215!

 

-js

Me too

I am still a long way from using a lot of the other information like TSB and ATL, but I am glad to be getting to the point where I can use this information to start shaping my training schedule to work more efficiently.

I saw on one of your post that you got the Joule. How are you liking it? Are you keeping tabs of TSS while training?

Now that I can see TSS and IF while training that is helping me as well. Before I was sort of guessing and would not know until I got home and uploaded my data. Guessing I would be close, but now it is nice to have a bit more confidence during the training event that I am getting enough stress and yet not so much that it interferes with the next training session.
 

Edit: Post removed since Swampy and danfoz answered

One thing that I find useful as an aid to stretching is just relaxing on the bike during a "warm down" after a session. Just pedalling very easy in a low position seems to help relax me on the bike and if I do it for more than 10 minutes it does seem to reduce the feeling of fatigue the day after. It works well for me but as we always say - YMMV.

Felt, it may indeed be true that some sports physiologists believe stretching is a waste of time but you'd be hard pressed to find the same sentiment in the world of dancers, martial artists, gymnasts, and many others who take there athletics very seriously. If you don't need the range of motion then why waste time getting it right? In the competitive bicycle world maybe that just means getting lower on the bars. I saw a beautiful De Rosa in my park the other day, all except for the fact that the stem was flipped and there were too many spacers under the stem and the rider still looked like he was uncomfortable. Too many spacers under the stem, is there such a thing? Absolutely. The general rule for a a 1-1/8 carbon steerer is 3 cm at most to retain structural integrity. Beyond this I'm going to take a wild gander and say anyone who disagrees with the stretching sentiment probably isn't comfortable riding the drops for too long, or is too young to know what waking up a little stiffer each morning feels like.

If I do not stretch my glutes (and to some degree my lower back) thouroughly and regularly it's probably only a matter of time before my back goes out. I'm not sure what stretches you are doing but it's way more important to feel a gentle stretch that you could hold for even longer than 30 secs than to look like the picture of the person streching. Most people go too deeply into the stretch to start. For 'static' stretching it should be a very subtle feeling as the muscle tightens a bit, and then you focus on your breathing and 20,30,40 seconds down the road then you feel it relax a little. There's a few different types, dynamic stretching, static (which we are all most familiar with) isometric, etc. At one point I started riding with a slightly higher saddle position and noticed that it exacerbated the situation. In my case a higher seat "toe down" definitely doesn't work for me. Two that really helped me were the piriformis stretch, and the low back stretch where you lie flat face down, use you arms to push yer upper body causing your back to arch, and then rise back onto the haunches getting somewhat fetal. It a pretty common stretch. You can easily find what they look like by doing a Google or Yahoo images search. Maybe some of this helps.

Stretching is also sometimes perceived as feminine. Dunno why. I was stretching at work one day after a particularly hard day on the bike. A colleague of mine walked past and said what are you doing? I replied I'm stretching. He responded in his thick Lebonese accent (making it even more comical) "What are you a girl?" I laughed pretty hard at that one. Ok enough with the stretching. Are we there yet?

Thanks swampy and danfoz

I really do need to do a better job of stretching on a regular basis before the situation gets acute. I ought to know better by now.

My lengthy post to js because I know it has been an ongoing low back issue he has worked hard on solving. I know a lot of stretching positions, but was having trouble really getting a deeper stretch in the spinal erectors. I could tell by the deep squat that I descibed that I have found the trouble area and just need to work diligently at getting it worked out because I plan on keeping my training intense.

........well that is if the sick coworker that has visited my office and talking to me several times today with his cold/bronchitis doesn't take me down. argh!

@felt, Yeah I would definitely say I am the poster child here for bad backs.  I read all your guys posts and let me give you my 2 cents and some may seem like I am talking down, it is just me trying to figure out things as I write them so bare with me.

In my case my lower back issues and even thoracic issue has nothing to do with muscle issues.  The muscles are simply reacting to injuries in my lower back.  I always say my body is smarter than me.  My body knows there are injuries in my L5/S1 and my T5.  The muscles tighten to try and provide stability.  The more injuries,the more you push it, the more it till tighten!  Go too far the muscles lock up stopping you from moving.  I am happy to say even with all my issues my back never totally locked.  It is god awful pain.  

There is a difference between muscle pain and nerve pain.  In my case, most of my pain was nerve.  The nerve pain is causes by in lower back issues from pressure on the sciatica nerve.  It is one of the longest nerves in your body.  The more pressure on the nerve, the further down your legs it will go.  Again muscles try and hold the spinal column steady so will not press on nerve but needs help from core muscles to provide the most stability, similar to doing a squat or deadlift.  In many cases that helps but still may not be enough.

Also of note the spinal column discs all work together so problems in L5 will put more pressure on L4 which usually leads to problems in L4.  That is why surgery is avoided at all costs cause in surgery they fuse the bones which means less movement and more chance of problems above and below the discs fused.

Now all this behind us, my advice to you felt is to try and find a mckenzie certified PT person in your area.  I believe for most bike issues it is not muscles but pressure on the L5/S1.  They can show you exercises and perform a different set of spinal manipulation that is not like chiroprators, very different.  The exercises or stretches I do go in the exact opposite direction.  They are the cobra and mini-cobra as I am trying to get pressure off the nerve.  In bending forward and sitting, you are putting pressure on the nerve in my case.  I do exercises like the begging man to stretch in the other direction but would not go as deep down as you are doing in the exercise.  Since I know my issue is nerve I would use a heating pad to loosen the muscles before I go to bed.  If I feel pain going down the leg I would use ice to calm down the nerve.  Most recommend combinations of ice/heat on/off 15 minutes at a time.  

BTW, I did do your exercise for the heck of it and it felt good but not through the spine, mostly glutes as an FYI.  As far as stretching goes I am not the biggest stretcher and there are many idea of what and how much stretching to do.  I know guys who were hard core stretchers and would stretch for one or two entire workouts a week but this was not easy type stretching.  It was nutty.  I lean toward danfoz that some stretching is a good idea but I tend to lean on the side of less/easier.  Most folks will tell you with back issues posture is more important.

Now for the fun stuff, cause of Saturday I did only 2 hours on Sunday and a 120 TSS.  Was off yesterday and today was ready for the 3 hour stint.  BTW you hit it on the nose, I now aim my ride for a TSS score but it has to be made up of a certain zone, today was >150 and mostly L3 with some L4.  The strange thing was today it felt so easy to do and nailed a 217 TSS without feeling dead and the third hour again being a high.  I even nailed again a 230 at the end.  This was one of my best rides this year on the trainer and one of the easier ones.   I can really say looking at the way I was plowing through hour 3 that my ftp is higher than 245 now and I can in the next couple month or so pull off a >210 for 3 hours.  Still doing about 200-210 now.  I am going to up the numbers a bit more Saturday.  Tomorrow will be L2/L3 and TSS 130-150.

On a different note, my back did well.  3 hours and not too bad.  I am sure tomorrow no matter the zone my back will be more sore to put in that much time on the saddle on the trainer.  

-js

js, that was exactly what I needed wanted to know about your back condition. I have some similar issues with nerves, but this lately is been a result of muscles feeling overly tight.

I really need to stay dedicated to stretching before I let it get this bad.

Nice job on training today

@felt, hope I wasn't too overly detailed.  For a couple of years I lived every living moment thinking/studying about spines and used to hang around this one forum.  

No set backs and stay away from the colds dude!

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsirabella 

@felt, hope I wasn't too overly detailed.  For a couple of years I lived every living moment thinking/studying about spines and used to hang around this one forum.  

 

No set backs and stay away from the colds dude!

Thanks for the detail. Knowing you have looked deeply into your issue was why I asked you the question. In my situation, as seen in my x-rays, I have several spots on my spine where my nerves can easily be pinched with just the wrong move and once they are inflamed the trouble begins.

After my chiro said last week that everything looked okay the next thing was to look at the amount of training stress I have been putting on muscles through my hips and legs. So I am grateful on one side that it may not be an inflamed nerve, but now need to look a consistent effort to keep this area stretched as much as I can with schedule. Which stretching also helps when I have pinched a nerve because it opens up the area to release the inflamation as my chiro has described. When it is a nerve issue I can use my inversion table to hang upside down and it opens up the spine and that will help me heal faster.

I think what I am experiencing is muscular and the stretching advice I was given to stretch the spinal erectors a bit more deeply may be the ticket. I tried the one position this morning and could feel it a bit deeper. The squat posture that I mentioned to you (thanks for trying it) really opened up the hamstrings like you mentioned you felt. That area is also super tight. Last night I did 3 x 20's @ L4. The first 20 was really discomforting, but by the end of the second 20 my legs, hips and lower back seemed more relaxed. So it took about 40 minutes to really get warmed up to train. I wish I had more time during the weekday to do a proper warm up, but it is what it is.

Thanks for your post 

@felt, inversion tables are great.  I never personally used one but know many that have done so with great success.  In the end it all comes down to releasing the pressure on the nerve which you already know.  I am the same in terms that the first 20 minutes I get a bit more discomfort which than leads to less discomfort as the ride goes on.  A good test is after you finish your ride to try and touch your toes.  You will find it much easier than when you started.

Loving making these rides by TSS, today I did a 130 cause of yesterday which was 2 hours and 2 x 20 @ 230 to make it a bit more spicy 130TSS.   It is much better planning your rides this way.

-js 

Figure I throw in an update even just to keep myself focused.  

I took off yesterday but for some reason did not feel the usual Saturday freshness.  I changed my work week with Tuesday being 3 hours L3, Wed 2 hours with 2 SST/L4 efforts and Thursday back to 3 hours L3.  I usually make Thursday the 2 hour day so maybe that could be the reason or the CTL hitting my highest of about a 96 or riding in the van all day yesterday doing outdoor shooting.

In anycase put in the 3 hours and did get an avg of 205 with the last hour being a 225 and the last 20 minutes 228.  The last 20 was killer as I always feel that is my test of where I really stand.  Next week I head to Florida and would love to bring my breakaway ritchey bike but not sure if really makes sense.  Alot of hassle and I spend alot more time working than riding.  Got to give it some thought.  And when I do not do it, I ask myself why I bought the breakaway in the first place!  

It has no become my main bike though here with the Canon in 2nd.  On a side note as we are moving I put up a bunch of old frames, wheel sets and parts and sold them all.  Going to get that TT frame soon enough.  The last thing to sell is the Cervelo R3 frame.  That will bring in the real bucks to get that TT frame!

-js