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1,531 Five Second Average: Sprint Power Increasing In My Off Season:

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 

Hello all,

 

Just thought I'd see if anyone else is experiencing an odd increase in power since the "race season" has ended?

 

I've been working with a coach doing two structured trainer sessions per week that work on low cadence pedal efficiency-Upper Level 2- intervals mixed in with lower intensity high milage sort of training.

 

In the past two weeks I've hit a maximum of over 1,600 watts and held more than 1,500 watts for five seconds. These were just hard efforts thrown in to keep 3+ hour level two rides from getting boring.

 

Oh, since I last posted here I've had two 1st place CAT 5 finishes & got moved up to CAT 4 after my 7th and final race of the season which I won. Nice way to stay motivated through the off season and I'm looking forward to working hard to carry the momentum into next season.

 

Here's a photo just before crossing the finish line of the last race....

FinishNotSoClose.jpg

 

 

 

post #2 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2011 SWORKS View Post
...Just thought I'd see if anyone else is experiencing an odd increase in power since the "race season" has ended?...

That's actually pretty normal. Short duration neuromuscular power doesn't rely much on overall metabolic fitness and benefits tremendously from freshness. Most of my peak 5 to 10 second efforts have happened in the pre season or post season when I'm training less and relatively fresh.

 

-Dave


Edited by daveryanwyoming - 11/9/11 at 11:21am
post #3 of 15

Just remember that it is a LONG ways till next season.  The best way to carry momentum is to take a breather this time of year, so you have the mental and physical drive to do what you need to do when it matters next season.  If you plan to keep this effort up you should be prepared to come out in the early season and destroy those that are not quite on form, building confidence and points towards upgrading to a 3.  You will then upgrade to a 3 about the time that you will physically and mentally be exhausted regardless of the drive that you think you have now.  You will find yourself in a bad place and in a much harder category with everyone reaching peak form, so unless you have a mid-season recovery plan you will have a difficult road forward. 

 

Or you could allow yourself some mental and physical recovery until February, start off with long duration low intensity, increasing as you reach race season, going out and being in equal form and what seems like better strength than most in your class still allowing you to win plenty of races.  You will then upgrade while still reaching peak form and will be able to compete just fine as a category 3, potentially upgrading again by the end of the season....

post #4 of 15

Gotta get to the finish line with that power - I'm sure you're aware of that already.  Off-season for me is all about increasing threshold power in order to get to the finale with as much of my AWC left in reserve as possible.

Those are good numbers.  They'll be more impressive if you're putting out that wattage at the end of the race.

My best max numbers versus my best race day max numbers differ on average by 200-300w.  I want to keep narrowing that gap.  Ymmv.

post #5 of 15
Thread Starter 

bgoetz: I have brought the intensity of my training way down since that last race in September and only throw in a sprint here and there to keep things fun. Here is my schedule:

 

Mon: Off

Tues: 15min warm up, 3 min in 53x12 gear/60RPM @ around 260 watts/Tempo...Recover for 3 minutes and repeat 10 sets

Wed: Level 2 spin night ride 1.5 hour

Thurs: Same as Tuesday.

Friday: Off

Saturday: 3.5 hour level 2

Sunday: 2.5 hour level 2 (this is where I throw one or two county line sprints in with the guys to keep things fun)

 

I haven't had any consistent level 3 training or higher since September and I'm getting hungry for getting back to working at FTP (my coach has me aiming for that in January).

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence on the upgrade to CAT 3 but that is not on my mind for 2012. I want to see how far I can take things with the PA BAR points in CAT 4, get a handle on my weight, stay safe, increase fitness, and then see what happens for a upgrade in 2013. This is only my 2nd season riding a bike and I need to improve my base (and everything else) to compete with those CAT 3's and the distances they race.

In the short time I've been around the race scene it seems like there are a fair amount of folks that move to CAT 3 and kind of burn out with racing because they are finishing mid pack and never able to contend with a podium finish or even close to a top 10. By NO means am I suggesting "sandbagging" as a CAT 4 but I want to make sure I have to physical/mental ability & training time to invest in cycling before I consider upgrading.

 

Tonyzackery:

 

I would imagine that you are on whole other level of training and competition than I am. So you you work on increasing threshold in November? Do you take any months to tone it down and only work at endurance & tempo levels? I'm really liking these low RPM intervals I'm doing. They help me "feel" the entire rotation of the pedal stroke and hope it improves my pedaling efficiency.

 

Yep, a strong sprint is worth absolutely nothing if you can't make it to the final 200-400 meters with some gas in the tank. That last race of the season I maxed at 1,447 watts in the sprint. The pace of that race was so slow it was almost boring till the last corner so it wasn't a problem to produce numbers. The week prior to that race I held an average power of 996 watts for 20 seconds to take 4th place in a CAT 4-5 race (1st place CAT 5). That field was awesome and the 4th place finish among the best CAT 4's in the state (PA BAR champ and ultimately 2nd, 3rd, & 4th place BAR points contenders) felt so much better better than wining the CAT 5 race.

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #6 of 15

Seems like you have the right focus and mindset, keep it up and you will have a great year next season....

post #7 of 15

As others have said it responds hugely to a reduction in training load (which is why you might taper before a very important event, even though you'll be sacrificingg fitness a few weeks later)   I would question why you want to reduce your training load now though with nothing to gain from the freshness.

post #8 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JibberJim View Post

As others have said it responds hugely to a reduction in training load (which is why you might taper before a very important event, even though you'll be sacrificingg fitness a few weeks later)   I would question why you want to reduce your training load now though with nothing to gain from the freshness.



JibberJim,

 

bgoetz has a pretty good description on the second response to this thread as to the timing/intensity of your training realative to peak form. Nobody I know keeps high intensity training year round. Just this past Saturday I ended up riding with a two-time national road race champion, two state bar champs, and a host of very talanted cyclists that were out for a 3.5 hour low intensity training ride. Felt honored to ride along side the two-time champ and have a conversation (hell of a nice guy). Fortunate for me these elite athletes subscribe to a similar training mindset of "building your base" at this point in the season with a lot of low intensity training that will allow for much to gain physically and mentally over the next few months.

Now if I were to go out with these guys on their training rides in March.... I'd likely be dropped in their "warm up".

 

post #9 of 15

I said nothing about intensity, I discussed overall load - if you only do one 3.5 hour ride a week at a low intensity then your load will plummet if you do more higher intensity rides in the normal course of your effort.   If you do five 3.5 hour rides a week then your load will likely not change much,  However if you do that, you'll also be very unlikely to see the big gain in 5second powers.

 

Also if you don't subscribe to doing any sort of intensity - why are you testing your 5second power?

post #10 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2011 SWORKS View Post


Just this past Saturday I ended up riding with a two-time national road race champion, two state bar champs, and a host of very talented cyclists that were out for a 3.5 hour low intensity training ride. Felt honored to ride along side the two-time champ and have a conversation (hell of a nice guy). Fortunate for me these elite athletes subscribe to a similar training mindset of "building your base" at this point in the season with a lot of low intensity training that will allow for much to gain physically and mentally over the next few months.

Now if I were to go out with these guys on their training rides in March.... I'd likely be dropped in their "warm up".

 


A single ride is too short of a time to understand what type of winter training those riders are doing. Even talking with them is not going to give you insight into their training.

 

I think you are more on the track when you say that they would drop you on their "warm up." If these guys are as good as you say they are, they should have dropped you on a 3.5 hour L2 effort (their L2 effort not yours). I suspect these guys were just doing "community service" not doing a training ride.

 

----

 

If you want to view winter as "building your base." You might be better off using the power numbers you want next season to determine your intensity as opposed to using your current numbers. The workouts will be harder but you will start your summer training closer to what your goal.

 

post #11 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JibberJim View Post

I said nothing about intensity, I discussed overall load - if you only do one 3.5 hour ride a week at a low intensity then your load will plummet if you do more higher intensity rides in the normal course of your effort.   If you do five 3.5 hour rides a week then your load will likely not change much,  However if you do that, you'll also be very unlikely to see the big gain in 5second powers.

 

Also if you don't subscribe to doing any sort of intensity - why are you testing your 5second power?



JibberJim,

 

From my original post...."In the past two weeks I've hit a maximum of over 1,600 watts and held more than 1,500 watts for five seconds. These were just hard efforts thrown in to keep 3+ hour level two rides from getting boring."

 

From my next response where I explained my training..."Sunday: 2.5 hour level 2 (this is where I throw one or two county line sprints in with the guys to keep things fun)"

 

 

Do you ever finish a ride and then view it in a software like WKO+ ?

WKO+ will show you your best average 5 second power, peak power, etc....not to mention one of the fields on my Garmin Edge 800 is a "max power" display.

I was not "testing" 5 second power but I always look at my fit files when I finish a ride, don't you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #12 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by An old Guy View Post


A single ride is too short of a time to understand what type of winter training those riders are doing. Even talking with them is not going to give you insight into their training.

 

I think you are more on the track when you say that they would drop you on their "warm up." If these guys are as good as you say they are, they should have dropped you on a 3.5 hour L2 effort (their L2 effort not yours). I suspect these guys were just doing "community service" not doing a training ride.

 

----

 

If you want to view winter as "building your base." You might be better off using the power numbers you want next season to determine your intensity as opposed to using your current numbers. The workouts will be harder but you will start your summer training closer to what your goal.

 


 

Old guy,
 
You said "Even talking with them is not going to give you insight into their training"
 
Are you telepathic or do you just pass notes to communicate with your riding buddies?
If you want real insight into how successful people in your area are training I would recommend talking to them. You would be surprised at the response you might get. But first, you MUST follow these suggestions:
 
1. Forget everything you think you know. Your advice on this forum is borderline delusional.
2. Put in a solid year of riding working your way up to pushing the pace of your local "A" group rides.
3. At the beginning of your second year try riding in your local criterium circuit training rides. You will develop a feel for competitive riding, cornering, positioning, and timing your sprint. Just as important as all of that... you will start making relationships with folks that race. ***Note: Do not forget step # 1***
4. Halfway through that season begin racing. It will hurt you, bad. You will get crushed in your first race but walk away with an incredible feeling of accomplishment & a new addiction to racing.
5. End up wining your last 2 out of 7 races and you will get an early move to CAT 4.
6. Win 4 local criterium circuit training "B" rides in a row.
7. By this point you will be invited to move up to the "A" criterium circuit training. HOWEVER you must be careful. You still know next to nothing about racing. Remember, these training rides include the 3rd ranked CAT 1 in the State and a host of very strong riders from all ages & categories 3 to 1. You must show respect to these athletes that have decades of experience over your 1.5 years. ***Note: Do not forget step # 1***
8. Race season will end. You will have made contacts with the local race teams. You will be asked to join more than one of them because you have let your riding & actions in races and on training rides speak for themselves.
9. Commit to racing for a team the following season. You are now riding on a team with all category racers. Just imagine the wealth of knowledge and shop support you will receive. It is a great thing.
10. Treat fellow cyclists as you would a teammate no matter what team they race for. You are all out there on race day for similar reasons. Respect your enemy & embrace him as your brother with a common passion. Besides, you don't know what the future might bring and what team you might race for down the road.
 
Ok. You are now up to speed on my 1.5 year on a bike which leads us up to last weekend.
That entire elite group of riders was comprised of two racing teams (one of which had asked me to join them. Unfortunately I had already committed to racing next season for another team but told him I hoped that wouldn't interfere with us training together.) It was while I was riding with him that this group of his teammates passed bye on their training ride. I have good insight to their training because I've been riding with some of them all season (just not their highest level guys).
 
Now listen close "Old Guy". Get the chip off your shoulder about being old. You don't have to state your opinion on things you are not familiar with (re-read most of your posts). I have been on more than one training ride with The (correction)Three-Time State Road Race Champion I was referring to above and he was working well above level 2. I didn't mention that he is 68 years old and his name is Barry Free, USCF Masters National Road Race Champion, 1994,1999, & 2008. Your cynical comment about the ride having to be a "charity ride" shows how little you know about training. Even for high level athletes "endurance" miles this time of year is a legitimate part of many of their rides.  
 
This year's CAT 4 PA State BAR champ was at my house last night for a trainer session and enjoyed my interval workout (see above). There is an awards banquet January 14 to celebrate the "Best All-Around Riders" in the State of PA. I was invited by the previous mentioned athlete as a guest. You should come along and sit next to me. I will show you how much insight you can gain by talking to some very talented athletes.  


 

 

post #13 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2011 SWORKS View Post
 
Ok. You are now up to speed on my 1.5 year on a bike which leads us up to last weekend.
That entire elite group of riders was comprised of two racing teams (one of which had asked me to join them. Unfortunately I had already committed to racing next season for another team but told him I hoped that wouldn't interfere with us training together.) It was while I was riding with him that this group of his teammates passed bye on their training ride. I have good insight to their training because I've been riding with some of them all season (just not their highest level guys).
 


A lot of guys get a big head when they upgrade from Cat5 to Cat4. I am pleased to see you did not.

 

I think you are misusing the term "elite." Since those teams want you to race and you are a Cat4, I am led to believe that there were other Cat4s on the ride. Perhaps even some Cat5s. Around here Cat4 and Cat5 is not considered elite. But your paragraph (the one I quoted above) seems to include 3 racing teams. One of which caught and passed the other two (and you were with the two).

 

Perhaps you are using the word "elite" to indicate that guys who are on "racing" teams are better in some way. I just don't know.

 

---

 

You talk about riding and training with these guys. I don't know what you mean by that. When I was riding with the fast guys, I either rode at the front or 20 yards off the back. No drafting for me. That was my idea of training. I bet your idea of training with these guys is sitting back and watching them do the work.

post #14 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2011 SWORKS View Post
I have been on more than one training ride with The (correction)Three-Time State Road Race Champion I was referring to above and he was working well above level 2. I didn't mention that he is 68 years old and his name is Barry Free, USCF Masters National Road Race Champion, 1994,1999, & 2008. Your cynical comment about the ride having to be a "charity ride" shows how little you know about training. Even for high level athletes "endurance" miles this time of year is a legitimate part of many of their rides.  
 
This year's CAT 4 PA State BAR champ was at my house last night for a trainer session and enjoyed my interval workout (see above). There is an awards banquet January 14 to celebrate the "Best All-Around Riders" in the State of PA. I was invited by the previous mentioned athlete as a guest. You should come along and sit next to me. I will show you how much insight you can gain by talking to some very talented athletes.  


 

 

 

I am sure Mr. Free is pleased with his accomplishments. You seem to be enamored with them also. But age group performances don't mean anything to me. Cat4 performance means even less.

 

I measure my abilities against those who actually have some ability. It is humbling. Even at my best it was humbling.

 

---

 

I will be unable to make the January 14 banquet - I don't date on the internet. In any case, I have a family I prefer to spend time with.


 

 

post #15 of 15

Jibber,

I think Sworks explained the intensity reduction well, and I think you understand it.  With regards to the volume, it is really nothing more than a mental break.  You can crank away on the bike at L1 from now until February until it is time to increase intensity, but by that time you are already tired of being on the bike.  The idea is to WANT to be on the bike, that desire will translate to your training and will make those high intensity efforts much more productive.  This time of year all you need to do is maintain your cardio fitness and strength, the more you can do that off the bike the better, it will just make you want it that much more when you need to be on the bike......

 

Unless you have a target race in March this time of year is all about staying fit and enjoying life, so you have the drive to put aside everything and put in the hard hours needed come February. 

 

Oldguy,

your hopeless.......

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