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Sequencing Workouts/Intensity

post #1 of 279
1/12/12 at 11:11am
Thread Starter 

I've just completed "Base" training (12 weeks of mostly SST & Endurance rides), and I am now moving into a 5 week "Build" phase. My plan is to ride Tue, Wed, Thu, and then do a hard group ride on Sunday.

 

My Tue-Thu plan is as follows:

 

Tue - ~ 20-25 mins of Vo2 - 5x4 or 5x5 + Additional Coggan L2/L3 miles = ~ 250 TSS

Wed - 2x20 TH + Additional Coggan L2/L3 miles = ~ 150 TSS

Thu - 1x45-60 SST + + Additional Coggan L2/L3 miles = ~ 225 TSS

Sun - Group Ride = ~ 300-350 TSS

 

In years past I've always taken an easy day between harder Tue/Thu workouts. I'm curious as to how others have approached resting/pushing themselves between harder workouts and what they observed in terms of performance later on.

 

Were you able to do higher quality work by resting between harder days?

Or did you see a better long-term payoff by pushing yourself using an approach similar to the Tue-Wed-Thu plan above?

Last, would you flip the Wed Thu wkts. given an SST ride "feels" easy compared to a 2x20 @ TH?

 

Thanks in advance for any thoughts/insights you might have.

 

Best,

 

gene r 

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post #2 of 279
1/13/12 at 11:00am

4 days a week seems to be a bit light.

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post #3 of 279
1/13/12 at 1:52pm

if you're doing a build i'm assuming that right after this build you're not going to be racing?

 

if so, I'd ditch the VO2 ride in favor of ~10mins/slightly higher power Threshold ride on the Tuesday.. that way you're doing some pull up but not loosing Th volume..

 

VO2max is no problem to take care of... 3 weekw of VO2MAX in the build just before enter racing phase will be sufficient to take care of that.. that's all it takes to sufficiently max out your VO2max capacity.. concentrate on Threshold..

 

for Thursday i'd start at ~30min SST and then increase each week and see how it goes.. that's a tough three days..

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post #4 of 279
1/13/12 at 2:09pm
Thread Starter 

I agree that it might be light in terms of days ridden, but in terms of TSS and IF its not a "light" week. 

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post #5 of 279
1/13/12 at 2:18pm
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the input Doc. I have a couple of B-races during the Build phase, but my spring "A race" comes about 3 weeks after Build ends.

 

vo2 workouts seem to bring me to a peak fairly quickly, so maybe I'll hold of on the Tue vo2 stuff in favor of more TH, and then introduce late in the Build phase. 

 

A prominent power coach told me last year that his preferred method for training clients (with a solid base and a few years of training under their belts) is to have them do 3 and 4 day blocks, basically whip them until they can stand no more and then have them taper hard for a target race.

 

In essence he told me you have to give up on the notion of weeks and just focus on blocks. After 20 years in this sport I still struggle with that concept. 

 

I guess in making those 3 days a hard block I'm trying to incorporate some of his thinking while still holding onto my traditional approach to doing things. 

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post #6 of 279
1/13/12 at 2:41pm

are you sure VO2max is that easy to take care of? 

 

1) it takes me waaaaaaay longer than 3 weeks to build my MAP/Vo2max to full capacity (i'm a bit soft and don't like going that hard though)

2) i sure as eggs are eggs remember taking longer than 3 weeks to build pursuit power (which is essentially VO2max) in the guys i coach who do IP/TP (more like several months rather than several weeks)

 

Ric

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post #7 of 279
1/13/12 at 2:45pm

I totally agree with that coach.. longer the build the better.. 3 weeks min.. 6 weeks max.. i try to plan for 4weeks and then adjust up or down depending on how it goes.. build, dip a little and then up again... i don't do a full rest between build.. don't want to de-train too much.. leave a little residual fatigue in there.. just up.. dip a little and then up again.. stepwise.  i also like to increase weekly TSS as the build goes on.. everything is going up as you build, you build capacity to train as you go so you keep taking it up.. then i taper hard.. i prefer to take time right off the bike.. know that doesn't work for everyone but i was forced to to it one year (honeymoon) and it worked.. week and 1/2 right off and came back.. did a tune up week and i was a monster.. my last week before the break was a 925TSS week and i had 3 builds 5, 4, 3 [edit]wks[edit] to get there so i was pretty ready for a break at that point.. but it worked for me and i've been doing that ever since.. got to really watch what you eat so you don't gain weight though.. train hard bury yourself and then taper hard.. if you can do double workout [edit]days[edit].. they make your fitness go up REAL fast.. always do higher intensity workout earlier in week or day.. also found that if you don't let yourself d-train in the off season you don't need to do all that base training.. but like your coach said.. that's will only work when you've had a lot hard of season in your legs..

 

[edit]I'd add that when i start a new build cycle.. the starting week is the same or slightly less TSS as the last week of the previous build cycle[edit]


Edited by doctorSpoc - 1/14/12 at 10:07am
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post #8 of 279
1/13/12 at 2:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST View Post

are you sure VO2max is that easy to take care of? 

 

1) it takes me waaaaaaay longer than 3 weeks to build my MAP/Vo2max to full capacity (i'm a bit soft and don't like going that hard though)

2) i sure as eggs are eggs remember taking longer than 3 weeks to build pursuit power (which is essentially VO2max) in the guys i coach who do IP/TP (more like several months rather than several weeks)

 

Ric


yes.. 4 weeks max... i have no experience with track, but for road.. yes.. that is sufficient to enter the season.. at that point your doing your B races and that racing will get you where you want to be.. if you care to look it up i'm pretty sure the literature will support the 3-4wk that i stated as well...

 

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post #9 of 279
1/16/12 at 6:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LT Intolerant View Post

I agree that it might be light in terms of days ridden, but in terms of TSS and IF its not a "light" week. 

 

TSS is not a good measure. My weekly TSS is 50% higher than yours. I suspect your weeks are harder than mine.

 

A better measure is how many days a week you need to recover.

 

----

 

My theory of "how others have approached resting/pushing themselves between harder workouts and what they observed in terms of performance later on" is that in races you put out your efforts when you are tired not when you are rested. So you should train (at least once in a while) when you are tired. That is why I think your weeks have too many rest days.

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post #10 of 279
1/16/12 at 8:03am
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the response OG. TSS, and what comprises my TSS, is all I really care about. Hours/days/miles etc. aren't as meaningful as they once were. That said I can see where 3 days of rest might seem like a lot to some. As an old guy myself I've found that resting hard really helps me push through tougher blocks of training and complete quality work. 

 

BTW if you are putting in 1300-1500 TSS weeks I for one am impressed! I think that puts you in rarified air, as most Masters racers I know are in the 700-1,000 range. 

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post #11 of 279
1/17/12 at 12:22pm

As I said TSS is not a good measure.

 

1400 TSS is only 200 TSS/day. 200 TSS is 4 hours at 50% of FTP. Not really much to brag about, but it does produce high weekly totals. Most likely that type of riding will not improve what you want to improve.

 

---

 

No I don't ride at 50%.

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post #12 of 279
1/18/12 at 12:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by An old Guy View Post

As I said TSS is not a good measure.

 

1400 TSS is only 200 TSS/day. 200 TSS is 4 hours at 50% of FTP. Not really much to brag about, but it does produce high weekly totals. Most likely that type of riding will not improve what you want to improve.

 

---

 

No I don't ride at 50%.



4 hours with NP at 50% of FTP = 100 TSS

 

You need to ride at a touch over 70% of FTP to get 200 TSS in 4 hours.

 

TSS is a great measure if you know how to calculate it properly.

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post #13 of 279
1/18/12 at 7:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LT Intolerant View Post

Thanks for the response OG. TSS, and what comprises my TSS, is all I really care about. Hours/days/miles etc. aren't as meaningful as they once were. That said I can see where 3 days of rest might seem like a lot to some. As an old guy myself I've found that resting hard really helps me push through tougher blocks of training and complete quality work. 

 

BTW if you are putting in 1300-1500 TSS weeks I for one am impressed! I think that puts you in rarified air, as most Masters racers I know are in the 700-1,000 range. 


TSS works is a good measure of training volume and likely payoff as long as the mix of workouts that is used to build that TSS is suitable for the event(s) you're training for.. 

 

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post #14 of 279
1/18/12 at 8:09am
Thread Starter 

Agreed Doc, and that's why I said, all I care about is "TSS, and what comprises my TSS..."

 

g

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post #15 of 279
1/18/12 at 9:55am

I am another one that really looks at TSS because I am concerned on how it will impact my training on following days.

 

I saw this guideline from Dr. Coggan a while back and even though it is just a guide my current conditioning it seems to be right on the money for me.

 

The following scale can be used as an approximate guide:

  • Less than 150 - low (recovery generally complete by following day)
  • 150-300 - medium (some residual fatigue may be present the next day, but gone by 2nd day)
  • 300-450 - high (some residual fatigue may be present even after 2 days)
  • Greater than 450 - very high (residual fatigue lasting several days likely)

 

 

 

I know that my weekday training can be done virtually every day because I do not have time to rack up substantial TSS, but on Saturday and Sunday I have to be careful if I do not want to disrupt the following days of training and being consistent is something I feel is important. It took a few rides (big mile solo / group rides or fast paced group rides) to figure out what TSS impacted recovery and fatigue. Now I feel as if I can adjust intensity during the ride as necessary. The one thing I love about using the Garmin 800 with a PM is knowing on the bike what my TSS is and then I adjust my training accordingly.

 

As it applies to me (this is per individual) I can do a 300 TSS ride and get away with training L3 the next day, but if I end up with 350 TSS it seems like my legs are toast for a couple of days just as the guide above indicates. If I do a fast paced group ride with a lot of burned matches that is about ~310 TSS my legs seem to be toast for a couple of days. So I have learned on the long training rides if I am doing big blocks of L3 and I am reaching 300 TSS with 20 miles to go I may back it down to L2 level for the remaining miles so that my following days of training are not impacted. If I am in a fast group ride and I am supposed to be meeting training goals I will drop off the back of the group and do my own thang in order not to exceed what I want for TSS that day.

 

If I have the following day off from training I will forget it and have fun chasing. smile.gif

 

I am certainly not pushing my pespective and I do not race so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I will say that TSS is important to me in keeping my schedule consistent.

 

 

This kind of goes along with my latest blog ramblings of training in a manner that allows consitency.

 

http://www.thecyclingaddiction.blogspot.com/2012/01/forward-thinking-training.html

 

 

 

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