Sequencing Workouts/Intensity - Page 2

I made the flip from hrs to TSS about 3yrs ago.. i think it's much more useful number for a lot of the reason already given.. i do still map hours though.. it's interesting to see just the huge increase in efficiency of my training.. the hours to achieve a certain TSS has gone through the floor.. and this is also validated out in my own actual racing performance.. racing performance does really seem to track well with TSS..  really does seem to be that TSS volume (with the right mix of training) is the really indicative of what your training volume really is and adaptation..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Simmons 

4 hours with NP at 50% of FTP = 100 TSS

 

You need to ride at a touch over 70% of FTP to get 200 TSS in 4 hours.

 

TSS is a great measure if you know how to calculate it properly.

I am sorry. I made a typo. I don't usually do the computation by hand. (I did the computation to not embarrass those who believe in TSS.)

According to the PowerAgent (PowerTap) software my TSS is over 300 everyday. 5 hour+ at 75% IF. I don't make any claims that my efforts are monumental. Just daily training. Certainly not efforts that lead to fatigue or need a day off.

Sorry for the typo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by An old Guy 

I am sorry. I made a typo. I don't usually do the computation by hand. (I did the computation to not embarrass those who believe in TSS.)

 

According to the PowerAgent (PowerTap) software my TSS is over 300 everyday. 5 hour+ at 75% IF. I don't make any claims that my efforts are monumental. Just daily training. Certainly not efforts that lead to fatigue or need a day off.

 

Sorry for the typo.

checked my files quickly... ~.75 IF for 5hrs are hard days.. all pretty epic, hard rides.. what kind of VI are you seeing? For me these are all rides that I might do another similar ride the next day, but never 3 of those in a row..

I do see a few rides .8 to .85 IF, 300 + to 325TSS in the 4.5 to 5 hr, 6hrs regions.. one of those was a 200km ride in a small 5-6 man group one of which was the Canadian National Champion that year.. super HARD rides... 

As I said TSS is not a good measure. The fact that you think my TSS scores would be hard for you supports my statement.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by doctorSpoc 

I do see a few rides .8 to .85 IF, 300 + to 325TSS in the 4.5 to 5 hr, 6hrs regions.. one of those was a 200km ride in a small 5-6 man group one of which was the Canadian National Champion that year.. super HARD rides... 

Rides are as hard as you make them. 5 hour rides are a lot easier if you train for 5 hour rides and not 1 hour races.

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I am impressed by your numbers. 40Kph for 5 hours is great. It is not going to keep a good chase group away, but it does get rid of the rift-raft. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by An old Guy 

As I said TSS is not a good measure. The fact that you think my TSS scores would be hard for you supports my statement.
 

Rides are as hard as you make them. 5 hour rides are a lot easier if you train for 5 hour rides and not 1 hour races.

 

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I am impressed by your numbers. 40Kph for 5 hours is great. It is not going to keep a good chase group away, but it does get rid of the rift-raft. 

TSS is not an absolute measure.. it's based on the athletes own FTP/abilities.. it shouldn't matter who you are, how good or bad you are, those numbers should be hard for anyone..

I'm starting to think that maybe you're under estimated your FTP or your power meter simply hasn't been zero's correctly.. me and you can do the same workout and at the end have very different TSS's at the end of the day if we are of different abilities..
 

So training for 5 hour rides makes the big TSS rides easier such that back to back to back 300+ TSS rides are just daily occourances?

You should tell that to Juan Antonio Fletcha - his power analysis for last years Tour de France is on TrainingPeaks. Even epic days like the stage that Andy Schleck won, traversing the Agnel, Izoard and Galibier was 'only' ~350 TSS and that was with producing some really mind boggling numbers at high altitude and 6.5hr in length.

If daily 5hr, 300TSS rides are that easy one wonders why Pro's have such a hard time doing 5hr TSS rides in France during July...

Quote:

Originally Posted by swampy1970 

So training for 5 hour rides makes the big TSS rides easier such that back to back to back 300+ TSS rides are just daily occourances?

 

You should tell that to Juan Antonio Fletcha - his power analysis for last years Tour de France is on TrainingPeaks. Even epic days like the stage that Andy Schleck won, traversing the Agnel, Izoard and Galibier was 'only' ~350 TSS and that was with producing some really mind boggling numbers at high altitude and 6.5hr in length.

 

If daily 5hr, 300TSS rides are that easy one wonders why Pro's have such a hard time doing 5hr TSS rides in France during July...

Ah, geez.  You forget that Old Guy used to ride 5000 mile weeks.  Really.  Honest.  Don't listen to the training experts.  Listen to Old Guy.  He's been there, done that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swampy1970 

So training for 5 hour rides makes the big TSS rides easier such that back to back to back 300+ TSS rides are just daily occourances?

 

You should tell that to Juan Antonio Fletcha - his power analysis for last years Tour de France is on TrainingPeaks. Even epic days like the stage that Andy Schleck won, traversing the Agnel, Izoard and Galibier was 'only' ~350 TSS and that was with producing some really mind boggling numbers at high altitude and 6.5hr in length.

 

If daily 5hr, 300TSS rides are that easy one wonders why Pro's have such a hard time doing 5hr TSS rides in France during July...

Perhaps you should ask the TdF riders why the rides are hard. What are the TSS for those who ride the Race Across America - while they are riding it?

As I said TSS is a poor measure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alienator 

 

 

Ah, geez.  You forget that Old Guy used to ride 5000 mile weeks.  Really.  Honest.  Don't listen to the training experts.  Listen to Old Guy.  He's been there, done that.

 

I think you have me confussed with someone else. 1400 miles (84 hrs = 7 12 hour days) seems like a reasonable estimate based on my abilities when I was doing long miles. There are several people I know of who have done  close to 2000 mile weeks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by doctorSpoc 

 

I'm starting to think that maybe you're under estimated your FTP or your power meter simply hasn't been zero's correctly.. me and you can do the same workout and at the end have very different TSS's at the end of the day if we are of different abilities..
 

 

I'm inclined to agree.  When you look at TSS the other way, whether your FTP is 150 or 400, a 300+ TSS ride is damn hard.

Dave
 

It is more likely that the TSS formula does not predict what you think it does.

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Perhaps you could measure my FTP and calibrate my PowerTap. My billing rate is $100/hour door to door plus expenses. (I know my FTP is correct and that my PowerTap is properly calibrated. I am not willing to incure the expense of showing that you are wrong.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by An old Guy 

 

It is more likely that the TSS formula does not predict what you think it does.

Perhaps it does not predict what you think it does.  And I am wondering what you think TSS is? 

I somehow doubt your TSS calc was a "typo" but rather a misunderstanding of how TSS is calculated and what it represents.

TSS is training stress score, not a training prediction score.  It is direct measure of training stimulus (since it accounts for both duration and intensity), which needs to be taken in context of training history.

If you have a high CTL, then high TSS days are less relatively stressful than for someone with a low CTL.  That should be relatively obvious.

("The more you train, the more you can train")

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Simmons 

TSS is training stress score, not a training prediction score.  It is direct measure of training stimulus (since it accounts for both duration and intensity), which needs to be taken in context of training history.

 

If you have a high CTL, then high TSS days are less relatively stressful than for someone with a low CTL.  That should be relatively obvious.

("The more you train, the more you can train")

I think we agree. At least for the better part.

Because the TSS predicts the same stress for people regardless of CTL, I would make the claim it is not a good measure to compare the stress for people with different CTLs. (I did say TSS was not a good measure several times.)

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Today I was on my trainer at 90+% FTP for 30 minutes - 43TSS,  8Nm torque. My knees hurt more from that effort than on a day with much higher TSS  but lower average torque. But the pain does not affect my power production - I will simply use a lower gear and higher cadence on my next ride.

Of course, TSS does not take into account the stupidity of training in the wrong gear. (I did say TSS was not a good measure several times.)

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I guess you have explained why TdF riders can do 300TSS days and not be affected as much as amateur racers.(I did say TSS was not a good measure several times.)

OG... let's narrow this down... you are saying that TSS is not a good what.. exactly?

Quote:

Originally Posted by doctorSpoc 

OG... let's narrow this down... you are saying that TSS is not a good what.. exactly?

Felt_Rider provided the following:

I saw this guideline from Dr. Coggan a while back and even though it is just a guide my current conditioning it seems to be right on the money for me.

The following scale can be used as an approximate guide:

• Less than 150 - low (recovery generally complete by following day)
• 150-300 - medium (some residual fatigue may be present the next day, but gone by 2nd day)
• 300-450 - high (some residual fatigue may be present even after 2 days)
• Greater than 450 - very high (residual fatigue lasting several days likely)

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I am saying that TSS is not good at predicting recovery periods. And that one should not measure their training effort by keeping track of TSS.

I am sure that amateur racers who race less than an hour at a time and train according to plans similar to Dr. Coggan's plans feel it is a good measure. I am sure that both you and Felt_Rider are such riders.

I have no problem following (as a guide) something written or expressed to me by the likes of Dr. Coggan, Hunter Allen, Alex Simmons, Ric Stern, Bill Black, Frank Overton, Rapdaddo, Dave Ryan even though my FT is ranked in the recreational level. TSS, CTL, ATL and all the other metrics can be used as a training guide to the recreational cyclist as much as the Cat 1.