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Sequencing Workouts/Intensity - Page 18

post #256 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveI View Post

Based on how you described your training, you could experiment with the idea that greater polarisation is a good thing, so more L2 and L5 rather than focusing completely on L3/4. If your easy days are easier, you can make your hard days harder, and some believe this is a good approach.


 

"Most riders train too hard on easy days and too easy on hard days".

 

-Cyril Guimard
 

 

post #257 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by acoggan View Post


No chamber, just a tent (which hasn't been used since my wife briefly slept in it in 2007). 

 



I know if I told my wife to go sleep in a tent there'd be words said... :P

 

So with all this good stuff - do you have an autoclave for custom carbon bits and a haematology lab? I kid, I kid...

 

 

post #258 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felt_Rider View Post

Stevel, thanks for the suggestion and your personal example. It makes sense. Certainly something for me to consider.

 

No doubt the monkeywrench for me is how lifting impacts cycling. Since being on this forum and when the debates on cyclists lifting weights comes up I have always sided with the coaches that state specificity with focus on cycling only. If I were not a lifter first and desired to compete in cycling I would no doubt not lift weights at any part of the season. I would focus full out on cycling only.

 

Last night played out just as I expected even with a very earnest effort in trying to keep in L4. You can see how the fatigue of training legs with weights on Monday impacted last night's attempt for a 2 x 30 effort as I was fading from the start to the finish. I started the session with extreme muscular soreness in my legs. Within a few minutes of finishing the intervals last night my legs went to another level of soreness. But this is the way I have been training now for almost a year.


So is your FTP around 200W, and if you're in the untrained section on WKO+, you must weigh at least ~77kg? That certainly is quite low for how much cycling you're doing. It is possible of course, that you just got unlucky when your genes were handed out - there was an episode of the TV programme Horizon on here recently where that was one thing they talked about. As you can see from the brief details in this review, they said that 20% of the population are "non-responders" in that their VO2max doesn't particularly increase in response to training:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/reviews/last-nights-viewing--horizon-the-truth-about-exercise-bbc2-timothy-spall-all-at-sea-bbc4-7462470.html

Or it may be that a good coach could reorganise what you're doing a bit to improve matters. Based on what you've said, I'd certainly consider having Tue and Wed as easier days if you do weights on Mon. Easier doesn't necessarily mean low TSS, but if you rack up the TSS by riding for longer in zone 2 rather than shorter zone 3 sessions, you may find you're more ready to do a good quality session on Thu.

post #259 of 279



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveI View Post


So is your FTP around 200W, and if you're in the untrained section on WKO+, you must weigh at least ~77kg? That certainly is quite low for how much cycling you're doing. It is possible of course, that you just got unlucky when your genes were handed out - there was an episode of the TV programme Horizon on here recently where that was one thing they talked about. As you can see from the brief details in this review, they said that 20% of the population are "non-responders" in that their VO2max doesn't particularly increase in response to training:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/reviews/last-nights-viewing--horizon-the-truth-about-exercise-bbc2-timothy-spall-all-at-sea-bbc4-7462470.html

Or it may be that a good coach could reorganise what you're doing a bit to improve matters. Based on what you've said, I'd certainly consider having Tue and Wed as easier days if you do weights on Mon. Easier doesn't necessarily mean low TSS, but if you rack up the TSS by riding for longer in zone 2 rather than shorter zone 3 sessions, you may find you're more ready to do a good quality session on Thu.



No doubt about it that it is genetic. In 1993 I qualified for the NPC national level by winning my weight class and I won a lot of competitions before that so my genetics were better suited for the gym. I am on the decline these days with age, hormones and not being able to train as heavy. Endurance anything was never good for me, but just about anything lifting I once excelled. (past tense)

 

I have trained others on the opposite of this. I remember one guy that I coached for a year or so and he really wanted to add lean muscle. He was a definite ectomorph and at the end of the year I think he may have added a pound or two and barely increased his squat by just a few pounds. I think he would have been much better at cycling or running. Realizing this I am content with the truth that I will not progress a whole lot on that power profile.

 

Although I am a light framed 5'6" I was at a fairly lean 86 kg in 2004 when I got into cycling and I am now down to fairly lean 76 kg. My FTP is currently set at 205.

 

Dave and Rapdaddyo helped me get on track with endurance events by advising me to train in long blocks of L3/SST/L4 type of schedule. I feel for the goals that I described to them at the time and then getting on this type of schedule it did improve me enough to hold a fair pace on any 100 mile event in my area. Previous years trying to hang with my cycling club full of veterans I would start getting fitness cramps about mile 50 or 60. Now I can complete those 100 mile events at a good pace, do my share of pulls, go back and pull people back up to the group and not feel trashed at the end. But all of that is down at a lower club level of riding and not racing.

 

I suppose what I could look at for positive impact is my general health has drastically improved, whereas, back in the day with carrying that extra lean mass it was very difficult on me. According to the doctors I was getting real close to flirting with having a stroke. I could squat a lot of weight, but I could barely walk to my car without having to stop to catch my breath and let my legs flush out. smile.gif

 

 

What you have stated about schedule / intensity is something to consider. Thanks

post #260 of 279

How are we getting back on track here.   Where'd that old saddle sore go?  Us long-time-lurkers were thoroughly enjoying (i.e. learning something from) the debate this thread devolved into.

post #261 of 279

Felt,

 

Have you ever considered having a go at track sprinting/kilo - if there's a track in your area that is?

post #262 of 279



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by swampy1970 View Post

Felt,

 

Have you ever considered having a go at track sprinting/kilo - if there's a track in your area that is?



I cannot tell you how many people in my local scene have asked me that question. I suppose I must give that type of appearance. There is a track, but it is way on the opposite side of Atlanta from me. I have a friend that bought a track bike and used it once at that track, but I don't think he ever returned and I think it must be the drive time and the difficulty getting a time slot on the track.

 

 

....................................................................

 

 

I have been thinking or reevaluating where I am at and where I hope to go with cycling.

 

I think of it like trying to piece together a 10,000 piece jigsaw puzzle. Based on my experience competing in a different activity I understand you first need a clear view of the picture or the final results and then start to look at the various pieces. You start separating the pieces out while looking at each one as an individual aspect and then you begin to start putting it together.

 

A bit more than a year ago my picture of cycling (goals) and what I would like to achieve finally became clear to me. Without going into all the finer details I finally came to the point of being content with a training schedule and one that I felt would help put this puzzle together.

 

However, I am still considering some small tweaks like what Stevel suggested. I may tweak the schedule as far as interval intensity, but that too has to work out with the overall picture. Generally I feel like I am on track to putting my puzzle together. It really does not suprise me that potentially I will not achieve a higher level (good FTP) performance in cycling and it does not disturb me that I may never achieve this. I still enjoy training hard and with some sort of organization to the schedule with sound training principles.

 

I mentioned in a previous post a guy that I trained whose genetics did not result in obvious improvements as far as gains in lean mass or noticeable strength gains and I can testify the guy earnestly put in the effort as I tried to help him, but he did not get discouraged. He continued to lift weights just because he enjoyed lifting weights. That is how I view my days in cycling. It is not my forte, but I do enjoy the activity and I enjoy training. I also enjoy learning sound training principles, but I may not necessarily apply all of them since I do not plan on competing.

 

Good stuff guys and thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

 

 

 

post #263 of 279

Felt-

 

20 sets of squats????  I wouldn't even want to see a bike (or a chair, or anyone else) after that.
 

It just seems like somethings gotta give.  I'm not much of a lifter, but once the initial "shock" of pumping iron wears off, DOMS (for me) usually fades out (that takes much longer at 40 than 20).  Back off the lifting and FTP will likely pop. Or back off the cycling 'till your body adapts better to the weights and then ramp up.  But both at the same time sounds like stagnation and misery.  

 

Thanks to Dave and RDO's suggestions, I've seen real gains in FTP in the last three months, and have done some kettle bell training and other stuff to maintain core strength, but nothing like what you're talking about.  And my CTL is only around 50 right now (time seems to be conspiring against me), with the goal of getting it to 80 or so.  

post #264 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrumpole View Post

Felt-

 

20 sets of squats????  I wouldn't even want to see a bike (or a chair, or anyone else) after that.
 

It just seems like somethings gotta give.  I'm not much of a lifter, but once the initial "shock" of pumping iron wears off, DOMS (for me) usually fades out (that takes much longer at 40 than 20).  Back off the lifting and FTP will likely pop. Or back off the cycling 'till your body adapts better to the weights and then ramp up.  But both at the same time sounds like stagnation and misery.  

 

Thanks to Dave and RDO's suggestions, I've seen real gains in FTP in the last three months, and have done some kettle bell training and other stuff to maintain core strength, but nothing like what you're talking about.  And my CTL is only around 50 right now (time seems to be conspiring against me), with the goal of getting it to 80 or so.  



whew....I had to check what I wrote.....20 sets for legs mainly squats, but not all squats.smile.gif  Although that is fairly light compared to my days in prime time that had up to 40 sets for legs. There is a picture of my legs at this link from back in the day of competing in bodybuilding. Link It took many years to build up or adapt to that type of training load just like it does for cyclists to handle 15 hours or more a week. I am still new to cycling and start feeling the limit at around 10 hours of structured training. I know that will get better the more I stick with it.

 

train more so you can train more

 

I am a lifter that enjoys cycling, but I am fading in the lifting department since I cannot handle that much weight on my back anymore. All of this has been sort of a personal experiment to see what will happen juggling the two. It is going just like I expected. You cannot be progressive in both. There is not enough time to train progressively and recover from both just as I figured, but am at that point in my life where I am going to just do it anyway because I enjoy both. I hope to carry some strength and cardio fitness into my older years.

 

Keep following Dave and RDO's suggestions. The two of them gave me good direction as well and even though I cannot train full out in cycling because of the lifting I have still improved a little bit.

 

I have been watching your posts on the other thread.....good going

 

 

post #265 of 279
"There is a picture of my legs at this link from back in the day of competing in bodybuilding. Link "

 

Holy crap man....  Like the say, a picture is worth a thousand words. From your rather modest descriptions in previous threads, I doubt anyone will be expecting what they see in your link.  

post #266 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAL1955 View Post

 

Holy crap man....  Like the say, a picture is worth a thousand words. From your rather modest descriptions in previous threads, I doubt anyone will be expecting what they see in your link.  



 smile.gif maybe a picture will  explain why I have not done as well in cycling and why it hard to spin over 80 rpm cadence, but I am morphing into a cyclist a little more each year and I am smaller and unimpressive in the gym world now. From 190 lb off season weight now down to 168 lb crossfit kind of guy, but crossfit / garage games are all the rage in my area now combining strength and endurance events. Maybe there is a place for me in this world. smile.gif

 

post #267 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felt_Rider View Post



 smile.gif maybe a picture will  explain why I have not done as well in cycling and why it hard to spin over 80 rpm cadence, but I am morphing into a cyclist a little more each year and I am smaller and unimpressive in the gym world now. From 190 lb off season weight now down to 168 lb crossfit kind of guy, but crossfit / garage games are all the rage in my area now combining strength and endurance events. Maybe there is a place for me in this world. smile.gif

 


A friend of my son runs a crossfit studio here near Tampa. I suspect that you would be an ideal fit for that competition. He is big into the current competition and is top 10% or so this year, up from last year in his attempt to qualify for the national games.
post #268 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAL1955 View Post


A friend of my son runs a crossfit studio here near Tampa. I suspect that you would be an ideal fit for that competition. He is big into the current competition and is top 10% or so this year, up from last year in his attempt to qualify for the national games.



That is really impressive. A lot of those guys and gals are as fit if not more fit than those making it through Navy Seal training.

 

Being on topic....they really have a lot factoring on Sequencing Workouts/Intensity. From what I understand it is full out every training session.

My chiropractor  is a judge at the local events and when he describes what the contestants have to do it makes me feel like a real slacker in my training - past and present.

post #269 of 279

Wow.  Those are some sequoias.  (You should have just posted a pic of your quads. Then everyone would have been confused. wink.gif)

 

In looking at your history--80 is a big base.  The rides themselves, though, seem fairly flat (?).   What would happen if you went to either 5x1, or 5x5 for a little while (really short rides for a couple of weeks).  And then go back to the FTP/SST stuff?  Not enough to bring on a full peak, but enough to "pull" your FTP up.  (E.g., more rest).  Have you tried any of this stuff?  Or is it just too hard with the lifting load?

post #270 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrumpole View Post

Wow.  Those are (were) some sequoias.  (You should have just posted a pic of your quads. Then everyone would have been confused. wink.gif)

 

In looking at your history--80 is a big base.  The rides themselves, though, seem fairly flat (?).   What would happen if you went to either 5x1, or 5x5 for a little while (really short rides for a couple of weeks).  And then go back to the FTP/SST stuff?  Not enough to bring on a full peak, but enough to "pull" your FTP up.  (E.g., more rest).  Have you tried any of this stuff?  Or is it just too hard with the lifting load?


I needed to put in an edit to your post smile.gif , but thanks

 

I went on this quest more than a year ago with Dave and RDO being kind of enough to give me some suggestions on how to improve my endurance on long distance events. In a simple format it pretty much is sustained periods of time at submaximal power output and consistency in schedule. It was not a detailed program, but I started trying to do longer sessions of L3/SST/L4 and though my FTP is not great I do feel like my endurance has drastically improved.

 

I do pick a flatter route trying to hit those long blocks of training at level outside. I stopped riding with my group to reduce coasting, drafting and stop time. My goal for the outdoor route is getting it as close to the quality of indoor training as I can.

 

I think it is going to be difficult to throw in L5 type work with lifting, but I am considering giving it a try. It typically takes 3 or 4 days to recover from training my legs on Monday morning, but I go ahead and do indoor intervals on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday evenings. The discomfort of going to L4 with legs that are already sore is almost more than I can take mentally.

 

I did 3 five minute L5 intervals at the end of and L4 session last night just toying around and I was able to hit that level. So it may be that Thursday's I could be recovered enough and may be able to coax my legs into hitting some L5's. I may give it a try next week.

 

 

 

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