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Advice on wheels for heavy rider - Page 4

post #46 of 127

Tying and soldering wheels is like the age old arguement of tubs 'n clinchers. Places like competitive cyclist will tell you that tubulars are "faster" and then go onto selling you Mastik 1 which allows tire squirm and the induced rolling resistance increase which makes them slower than clinchers...

 

If one wanted to really try and stiffen the wheel you'd mig weld the stainless spokes where they crossed rather than tie some fancy chicken wire around the spokes and low temp solder it. It takes far less time to spot weld than wirewrap and solder and it'd be a far stronger joint too. Probably lighter.

 

To solder to stainless you need almost 1000F - which isn't something that I'd want to put a high tensioned stainless spoke through for the sake of having a little wire hoop there for the sake of having a little wire hoop. Soldering at much lower temps will often lead to the solder not "sticking" to the spoke leaving you with that little wire hoop that's about as effective as a single wrap of string rigidly holding together two long chopsticks. I've seen more than a couple of wheels where the soldered wire isn't doing much of anything  - might as well use a zip tie. Mig does melt the wire to ~3000F but it's for a far shorter period.

 

How many builders prep their spokes by removing all oils from them before soldering?

 

If the effect was that great you'd probably have Mavic bond their aluminum spoked Kysriums together where the spokes crossed. Even quicker and probably a much more reliable joint too.

post #47 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by alienator View Post


No, it's not an apples and oranges argument. I clarified in a couple of posts that tying and soldering don't improve lateral stiffness. You can read any test you want, and you'll find that frontal stiffness doesn't vary a whole lot in wheels. No apples. No oranges. Anyone is free to do the actual lab testing to refute Jobst Brandt's results, but until they do (in method consistent with scientific method and one that can be replicated by others), any other claims fall short. Sorry, the human ass doesn't cut it as an accurate sensor. Anyone who thinks it does doesn't get the whole measurement thing. FWIW, the physics describes what happens in the wheel. There's no black magic that falls outside the physical description. Don't confuse what you're body tells you with reality. Your body's response is moderated by a brain which susceptible to all manor of bias: emotions; stress; state of rest; hydration; nutrition; illness; other pre-existing conditions; and on and on and on and on........



Totally agree that lateral stiffness won't be affected...that's the apples.  The oranges is that I think the radial stiffness or ride qualities of the wheel aren't the same characteristic as the lateral stiffness, or at least aren't automatically the same.  EG, if I add weight to the rim of the wheel, believe the ride quality will change, and further that the change could be measured.  My point was simply that lateral stiffness and ride quality aren't the same characteristic.  Not really a scientific claim, but I don't see why the two qualities should be automatically equated as they seem to be in this discussion. 

 

post #48 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhk2 View Post



Totally agree that lateral stiffness won't be affected...that's the apples.  The oranges is that I think the radial stiffness or ride qualities of the wheel aren't the same characteristic as the lateral stiffness, or at least aren't automatically the same.  EG, if I add weight to the rim of the wheel, believe the ride quality will change, and further that the change could be measured.  My point was simply that lateral stiffness and ride quality aren't the same characteristic.  Not really a scientific claim, but I don't see why the two qualities should be automatically equated as they seem to be in this discussion. 

 


You're right. They shouldn't be equated. Stiffness, whether lateral or frontal, is a measurable physical quantity, while ride quality is a wholly subjective quantity. Tying and soldering can change vibration damping properties of wheels/spokes and alter feedback to the rider.
post #49 of 127

In their marketing, both Fulcrum and HED use the spoke patterning argument to highlight the "stiffness" of their wheels. Using quotes as it may not be the appropriate terminology. HED changed their drive side patterning between 2010 and 2011 to supposedly create a more responsive wheel, and Fulcrum has been touting itself as a good wheel choice for sprinters also based on their spoke patterning for some time. What is the objective measure these companies would be using to make their claims (i.e. to claim more or less stiffness from one wheel generation to the next)?

post #50 of 127

Tying and soldering can change vibration damping properties of wheels/spokes and alter feedback to the rider.

 

No foolin'?

 

Because...they are stiffer.

post #51 of 127

To solder to stainless you need almost 1000F

 

Say what? How about 500°...or less. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder

 

How many builders prep their spokes by removing all oils from them before soldering?

 

All those that have soldered more than...twice?

 

Acetone and flux...how do they work?

 

 

post #52 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB View Post

To solder to stainless you need almost 1000F

 

Say what? How about 500°...or less. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder

 

How many builders prep their spokes by removing all oils from them before soldering?

 

All those that have soldered more than...twice?

 

Acetone and flux...how do they work?

 

 



CB, have you ever tried to solder SS spokes using low-temp solder and a soldering iron or torch?  I used to do a lot of soldering of electronics and cu plumbing pipe, so I kindof knew it didn't work.  But, just for fun tried it again in the garage using plumber's solder and my propane torch.  Cleaned the spokes well with spray throttle-body cleaner, the hottest solvent I've got around. 

 

As expected, the solder rolled right off.  Perhaps old-school zinc-plated spokes could be soldered, but if you see any T&S wheels with SS spokes, my guess is the solder is only bonded to the tie-wires, not the spokes themselves.     

 

post #53 of 127

When I was 12 years old I was soldering stainless steel slot car chassis together from plate, tube and rod stock.

 

With a Weller. And an Ungar. 12 years old. Some of my early joints weren't pretty, but they were fully functional.

 

They took repeated full throttle blasts into the walls that line the tracks with very little breakage. And ram shots from other cars as they drilled into my de-slotted car or vice versa.

 

No. Torch. Required. No 1000° F. Conventional low temp solder with a high <green weenie gasp!> lead content.

 

3857626149_c342028237.jpg

 

JS_Stainless02_1000.jpg

 

I have no clue what it is that you are doing wrong, but...you're doing it wrong.

 

The picture of the chassis in the bottom picture is from 1971 and is very similar to what we raced in the mid-1960's. The drop tongue with pan lift & tilt is what we called a "double-plumber" style. BTW, carbon fiber chassis have been available for several years now and are all the rage in G7 and G27 classes on some tracks.

 

Believe it or not, those chassis were not only built without a torch, there wasn't even a strain gage within ten miles on my building jigs. I don't know how the hell we managed to discern good handling from crappy handling without five certified scientists and a bank of instumentation...but we did.

 

Oddly enough, thru the use of varying diameters and number of longerons it was the relative stiffness or flexibility of the chassis that determined traction/bite and cornering characteristics. Adding bracing or or de-soldering joints at the track, with a soldering iron, was common practice and still is.

 

 

 

 

post #54 of 127

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhk2 View Post


CB, have you ever tried to solder SS spokes using low-temp solder and a soldering iron or torch?  I used to do a lot of soldering of electronics and cu plumbing pipe, so I kindof knew it didn't work.  But, just for fun tried it again in the garage using plumber's solder and my propane torch.  Cleaned the spokes well with spray throttle-body cleaner, the hottest solvent I've got around. 

 

As expected, the solder rolled right off.  Perhaps old-school zinc-plated spokes could be soldered, but if you see any T&S wheels with SS spokes, my guess is the solder is only bonded to the tie-wires, not the spokes themselves.      


FWIW.  I think you are using the wrong kind of wire ...

 

  • and, other than for cosmetics, you don't need to use DT's "wire"
  • you should be able to use stripped-of-its-insulation armature wire of the gauge of your choice

 

That is, the wrapped copper wire is fluxed-and-soldered & NOT the spoke ...

 

  • that's not to say that the spoke can't be soldered, too, but I think it was a collateral 'bond' with the tied-and-soldered wire in the past rather than the objective

 

post #55 of 127

Here's an 'easy' level stainless chassis kit that is designed to be assembled with...a simple ol' Ungar soldering iron. Go read the kit assembly instructions if you thinks it's impossible for any youth hobbyist to solder it together. PDF versions of DRS' kit instructions...complete with pictures of soldering irons being expertly wielded...are also online.

 

http://www.shoppscr.com/dl-kr-1-drag-chassis-stainless-steel-inline-dlkr1

 

 


Edited by CAMPYBOB - 2/16/12 at 4:57pm
post #56 of 127

OK, now understand SS can be soldered.  Apparently lots of people knew that already :)  As for what I did wrong in my quick experiment today, a bit of google research here indicates my old plumbing paste flux and solder won't cut it for SS.  Indeed, it can't be done with the only stuff I've got.  Looks like silver-solder and a strong liquid acid flux are required for starters.  Also recommended is that the surfaces be sanded just before applying the flux, to ensure all oxidation is removed and improve adhesion.  

 

We've taken the thread way off-track, but my knowledge of soldering now extends a bit beyond the bronze age. 

 

 

post #57 of 127


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB View Post

To solder to stainless you need almost 1000F

 

Say what? How about 500°...or less. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder

 

How many builders prep their spokes by removing all oils from them before soldering?

 

All those that have soldered more than...twice?

 

Acetone and flux...how do they work?

 

 

 

If all you want is a pretty little metal hoop that is fastened around the spoke but isn't ultimately soldered too it then have at it with tin solder. From what I understand, such solder is suitable for things like low pressure stainless pipe work - not having a 200+ lb guy smash his wheels down potholes on and the ensuing vibration.

 

A phosphoric acid based flux is recommended for stainless... After the surface has been cleaned with solvents and then emery cloth to a bright shiny finish. 

 

I could ask some of the guys at work that deal with welding/brazing but most aren't interested in "normal stuff" just the fancy stuff like welding pipes that take hydrogen at 2800psi at nearly 3000F.

 

You might find that bssa.org is a good read. I figure  that since Britain knows a thing or two about quality stainless the British Stainless Steel Association might know a little more about the subject that the dude down the local bike shop who also tells me that "my bony bit below my knee MUST be exactly above the pedal spindle" and that in order to go well during the summer I must ride hundreds of miles every Saturday and Sunday in a small gear pedalling very fast because it burns way more fat and you become super efficient - and because it kinda worked for him.

 


 

 

 

post #58 of 127

We've taken the thread way off-track, but my knowledge of soldering now extends a bit beyond the bronze age. 

 

I've been DOING this crap SINCE the fracking Bronze AGE!. mad.gif Yeah, I'm old...but very experienced!

 

Glad I could be of some help.

 

And if you've ever watched top class slot cars crash and stay in one piece, you'ld certainly know that a wheel's solder joint will hang in there.

 

I have no clue where people (not referring to you, swampy) get their ideas about engineering, 'science' and common sense in general from, but cyclists just plain scare the bejeezus out of me.

 

Some of the very important ideas I've learned while at Cycling Forums:

 

1. Heavy bikes are just as good as lightweight bikes. Hence, the invention of lightweight bikes never happened. And you wouldn't be able to tell the difference anyways.

 

2. Flexible components are better than stiff components. Thus the quest for ever more flexible cranksets. And you can't tell the difference anyways.

 

3. Stiffening a wheel up doesn't make it stiffer. Explains the market desire for flimsy wheelsets. And you couldn't tell the difference anyways.

 

4. You couldn't possibly successfully use a firearm to defend your life and property when blindsided by superior numbers. And you couldn't have a happy outcome anyways.

 

5. Wheel stiffness analysis is affected by proper hydration. So drink your rum and the data set will point you in the right direction. And you couldn't tell if you were properly hydrated anyways.

 

6. Soldering stainless steel requires a doctorate level degree and an oxy-acetalene torch. And you couldn't tell if the joint will hold anyways.

 

Well, thank God manufacturers keep getting my bikes lighter and stiffer. Thank God the component manufacturers keep developing lighter and stiffer components for me. Thank God folks use firearms to defend themselves from ghetto thugs. Thank God young children were encouraged to build things and learn to do things such as soldering. And thank God there's still wheel builders tying and soldering spokes. They. like me, were raised to ignore 'experts'. biggrin.gif

 

Off topic? No matter.

 

Just another thread reduced to mental masturbation. Or do I need strain gages and 6 pages of 'data' in order to be able to say that?

 

 

 

 

post #59 of 127

Wheel Building - Update No2
 

Quote:

Make sure you have everything you need.   Then decide how precise you want to be about building your wheel.   It is good to practice on cheap wheel or lightly damaged wheel.  A wheel that you can disassemble and rebuild, several times if necessary, for practice.  It is good to focus on the mechanics of building a wheel more than the theory building a wheel.   If you are comfortable with that, then move on to building your own wheels for riding.    It's easier to learn with a regular wheel (32 spokes, heavy gauge, double butted spokes, and brass nipples).     Don't try to be a hero on the first wheel.
 

If you want to be super precise and you want to build a good wheel, you should have a decent truing stand, which doesn't have to be super expensive but it should be stiff, as a stiff stand will make truing easier. You also will want a tensionometer.   A nipple driver works and is handy, but for new guys, I don't recommend a fixed dimension one like the Sapim.   The reason for this is that not all spokes have their threads cut/rolled the same, particularly in a rear wheel when you are dealing with two different length spokes which come from different production batches.

 

You could build you own wheel building jig by using an old pair of forks, which can be Carbon, Steel, Ti, or Alloy.   If they have snapped, in a crash, etc, you can join each fork leg together by epoxying them into a block of wood with the dropout facing upwards, otherwise they can be fixed into a block of wood via the fork steerer.   Then attach two zip ties to act as roundness and truing gauges.   You can slide the zip ties up and down or they can be twisted to adjust to rim size.   Also beneficial is to place a sheet of white paper (A4) under the jig for some contrast. You can fix the wheel to the jig/forks via a QR skewer.

 

Some good useful tools are Phil Wood spoke cutting machine, TS-3 stand with dial gauges that have rollers for tips (very smooth, even readings), anti-seize compound for threads (regular automotive stuff), Kendall Super Blu for nipple/rim interface, DT spoke wrench, FSA tensiometer, Park WAG-4 dish tool, long nipple driver, and a few different tools to put the nipples in place in the rim.   

 

You should check the ERD, even if you think you know the ERD by measuring it yourself.   Sometimes the ERD provided for your guild is wrong.   Using spoke rods from Wheelsmith 310mm blanks, etc, cut the elbows off,  then thread the other end and screw on a nipple and thread lock with red Locktite.    Measure the overlap and subtract that from a constant.    Measure the rim in 4 places.    This is more important with alloy rims and it will give you an idea of how round the rim is before you start.
 

To determine the required spoke length you can use spocalc.exe, which is a great spoke calculator (simply Google it).   Once everything is measured, put the numbers into spocalc, but here the important part. For light gauge spokes (1.5 butted, CX-Rays or Aerolites), subtract 1mm from the calc for the front and DS (Drive Side) spokes.    Subtract 0.5mm from the NDS (Non Drive Side) spokes. This gets the spoke flush to the top of the nipple.    For heaver spokes like 1.8mm or 2.0mm only subtract 0.5mm from the front and DS spokes and 0 from the NDS spokes.

 

Take a look at some spokes at random an you will notice that some have 9mm of thread, some 10mm, some 10.45mm and others 10.2mm.   The point is that the thread lengths tend not to be equal, however spokes length tend to be more consistently equal.   For an experienced wheel builder this isn't a very big deal, it simply takes a couple minutes longer when tensioning a wheel.   So if you start with a nipple driver that has an adjustable depth pin you take out the initial uneven tightening you get by using the last thread as a stopping point. There are several out there, the one that comes to mind first is the problem solvers holy driver. You set the tip depth to whatever you want (something close to the first thread on the first spoke you do) and then as you tighten each spoke, the tip will hit the spoke as it comes into the nipple and actually push the nipple driver off of the nipple. This ensures that each spoke/nipple is started and equal distance from the end of the spoke, which produces a more consistent starting point and makes for a wheel which requires less attention to rounding.

 

The FSA tensiometer is very good, although a little more expensive, but it's great if you plan on doing many wheels, otherwise, the Park tension meter is fine.

 

It is difficult to achieve perfect roundness.   If the rim is not perfectly round and you achieve a perfectly round build, then spoke tensions will not be perfectly even, and visa-versa, if the spoke tensions are perfectly even then the build will not be perfectly round.   That's due to the fact that tolerances in rim manufacturing are not perfect.   Some wheels are definitely going to be more perfectly round than others.   A good example is that a carbon rim will almost never be as true as an alloy rim. This is because alloy rims are extruded and carbon rims are formed.   Rims can also vary in width which can affect your truing. Rims can also be less round or vary in width at the seam.

 

Lubrication of the threads of the spoke is important. I personally don't like thread lock to start a wheel with (I use spoke freeze at the end) but to each their own. I like spoke prep or linseed oil on the threads of the spoke.   Another often overlooked lube point is the eyelet of the rim.   A drop of grease on there reduces friction from the nipple/rim interface.   Linseed Oil can be used as a thread lock and it works well.    Just dip the thread of the spoke in linseed oil before lacing and remove excess by touching the thread to a bit of newspaper.    The Linseed Oil lubricates the nipple while you are building the wheel and helps to reduce spoke windup.    Once the wheel has been left untouched for a couple of days the linseed oil has solidified and acts as a very mild thread lock.   If you do adjust the wheel at a later date the linseed oil tends to crack and falls away from the nipple/thread.   The Linseed Oil also seems to be sufficient to prevent the nipples seizing to the the Spoke thread.   You would not want to use Linseed Oil on internal Nipples with carbon rims, if Linseed Oil is not compatible with the carbon resins in the rim.   If you use linseed oil do not to leave rags that have become soaked in linseed oil lying around because they can spontaneously combust under certain conditions.

 

Some have used Purple Extreme lube for threads and nips on alloy rims.  A few mm's in the bottom of a jam jar, dip the threaded ends in then rattle the excess off the inside of the jar.   Then, when the wheel is built loosely, drip one drop into each eyelet.   If high tension is required then they have used grease.   They have also used a tiny amount of Coppaslip on carbon rims with external nips just at the interface.   Purple Extreme evaporates over time and just leaves a nice amount of lube to enable smooth movement in the future.   It was developed for ocean wet lubing so it is good enough to last the winter on a bike wheel. Nothing else seems to last as long.

For locking threads, I'll use ABS nylock nips on the non-drive side or the whole wheel if its called for. These don't move even in a hard landing or nasty pothole so are great for CX wheels, MTB and BMX use. For alloy nips, I crimp Sapim 14mm alloy just a tiny amount at the top of the threads or use Loctite 280 after the wheel is finished. It creeps down the thread with capillary action so works really easily.

 

For holding the nipple in place you can use a metal punch.    It should hold the nipple in place just enough to let you use a driver to thread the spoke.    This will vary depeding on the rim, ie high profile rims.    For high profile rims you can use another spoke that you thread one nipple on as far as you can so there are a few mm of threads sticking out the other end.    Then use that thread and screw the new nipple on backwards, then insert this down into the rim and screw the new nipple onto the spoke.

 

Some suggest you true and round the rear wheel using only the drive side (DS) spokes, but not at full tension.   Even tension is the most important factor for wheel strength and any deviations to this should be to make the wheel acceptably round.   Radially stiff rims that aren't round to start with need a lot of tension variation to make them perfectly round.   I've settled on a variation of up to .015" with minimal tension variation (+-5kg or so) before I'll say the rim is no good. Although the variation could possibly be higher before you would feel it.   A good way to achieve both of these goals is to start with a round wheel with very light tension, and keep it as round as possible throughout the building process.   So keeping that in mind once that's done you add the non drive side (NDS) spokes and use those to dish the rim (ie. centring the rim to the axle).   As you dish the rim you will bring the DS spokes up to tension. Some people like this method, others don't.  Another trick for bringing tension up without taking a rim out of round is to tighten only every third spoke rather than each one in order. By doing this you tension only one of each spoke of each set and in order.   Also use small turns when bringing tension up. 

 

When tensioning a centred rear wheel you need to take into account the different angle of the NDS and DS spokes. The NDS spokes will pull the rim more to the side than the NDS spokes with the same amount of turn on a nipple. So if you tension all the spokes by 1 turn, the rim will not be true and centred towards the NDS. It would appear that the ratio for keeping the rim true/centred is 1 NDS turn to 2 DS turns, but this will depend on the spoke pattern that you have decided to use.

 

Don't sacrifice even tension for that last bit of truing.    Some rims are just not perfect and it's better to have more even tension.    It will take many wheels to judge where this compromise is.    In general, rims like Reynolds and Edge Composites get true and still have very even tension.    The same cannot be said for many alloy rims.

The term Dish is simply saying that when a rim is centered between the axle ends or the points at which the stay dropouts sit on the axle, the rim does not look centred between the hub flanges.   This is because you have a cassette on DS of the hub and as such the two flanges, that hold the spokes, are unevenly spaced between the axle ends (ie. where from the stay dropouts sit on the axle).   So when the rim is centred on the hub/freehub/axle, the rim looks like it is dished to the DS hub flange, and not appear centred between the hub flanges.  Note that this is not an issue with a front wheel build.

 

Hub Graphics (this is not important but a nice touch)

If you are lacing a hub with the common method of DS trailing, spoke ahead of valve hole first, then to get the graphics on the hub to fall perfectly in line with the valve hole ...

  • Count the number of 'crosses' you intend to make, for example 3x.

  • Look for the first hole forward of the writing on the drive side, then start with the next hole forward, counting 1,2,3 away from you.

  • If you insert your first spoke in the 3rd hole, the writing on the hub will always be seen through the valve hole.

  • Works for all lacing patterns. 1x, 2x, 3x or 4x, simply put the 1st spoke into the corresponding hole - hole 1 for 1x, hole 2 for 2x etc.

  • Radial is easier obviously.

 

 

With this information you will be able to repair your wheels and perhaps even perform a build, although information about radial/1cross/2cross/3cross/4cross patterns is required, but there is more to come   :-)

 

 

 

 

post #60 of 127

Thanks klabs! It would have been nice to have had that info in 1972. smile.gif

 

How to tie & solder your spokes...a good picture tutorial here: http://urbanvelo.org/how-to-tie-solder-spokes/

 

I had to learn to build wheels by attempting to copy the work of other wheel builders. It was all trial and error to find out what worked and what didn't work.

 

Nowadays, I think the kiddies call that "science" and post links to the "scientific method" and explain wheel stiffness by claiming the rider's "hydration" is incorrect!

 

How things have changed since then and how things have stayed the same...

 

Last week's snow has all melted away and Ohio is having a very mild winter. There's been only two real snowfalls this year of about 5" each and today is going to be another good day to hit the road!

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