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New Training Paradigm

post #1 of 37
Thread Starter 

I've been reading a fair amount on the following forum where a very different form of training seems to be the norm. Most riders on the forum support this kind of training and there are some persuasive testimonies. Basically it is about cutting all L2 to be able to do more high L3/L4 as those zones bring the best improvements in FTP. Then when FTP has been worked on for a couple of months and start to plateau L5 is introduced.

 

What is you take on it?

 

http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/9-Endurance-Athletics-and-Sports-Specific-Training

 

Some examples;

 

"But be aware that real "base" is not about doing 20- 30 hours a week with a significant amount of JRA(just riding around... at endurance power level). If you do more then 15 hours a week, and have a job, you will not be able to train threshold properly. You probably know this but have gotten sucked into building "false base" as it has been hammered into the psyche of cyclists for many many years. High mileage weeks will hinder threshold gains and ultimately reduce your fitness and ability to get stronger. It will also not build mitochondria(O2 power houses) once you are in half decent shape ...and you are in good shape!

I train GOOD Cat 1 riders that only do 10-14 hours a week..EVER...but they work hard at threshold all year long and ramp it up with VO2 work in March.

Once a week in the winter hit a tough group ride and work threshold and some VO2 max in a non structured way.

Then a few weeks before your first important races do structured 4-6 minute VO2 max intervals (20-30 minutes a day) once or maybe twice a week if not doing a hard group ride.

If you have a job or go to school then reduce winter time on the bike to 10-14 hour per week(seriously) and do three days a week of threshold work. Sound nuts...nope...not if you are training correctly. Reduce JRA(endurance power level training) to one day a week for 2-3 hours max. Take one day off the bike each week and one recovery day(at least). Take a recovery week once every 4-6 weeks....really really easy week of 5-7 days that includes two days off the bike, two recovery rides and one day with a little intensity but reduced such as 10 minutes at threshold and some tempo.

Before rest weeks.. peak the block out with more time at threshold and NOT simply more time....keep the hours down and train HARD.

Sprint one day a week year round.

Three 20 minute intervals at 95% of your functional threshold power per workout is a super workout and does WAY MORE than JRA for 3-6 hours! As the season nears do some of your threshold work at 100-105% of your threshold power."

_________________________________

 

 

"IN THE OFF SEASON I LIKE THIS....

3 days of hard training followed by one day of recovery riding for 30-60 minutes and then one day OFF....then a hard group ride on day 6 of 2-4 hours or a pretty hard ride with a couple friends for 2-3 hours.
Day 7 is off or very easy recovery ride or an easy moderate length endurance ride at most.

Day 1 would usually be a double day with Sprints in the am and threshold work in the pm. I recommend sprints year round...but not "hog wild" in the winter.
Day 2 would be more threshold work but either less time or less intensity(ie: 92% FTP instead of 95%).
Day 3 would usually be tempo focus(85% FTP) but if feeling good then add one 20 minute threshold interval before the tempo work.
In time you should be able to hold tempo for 90 minutes non stop.
You can throw in some high endurance intensity training(sub tempo) here if you like.
Day 4...30 minutes on the trainer watching TV at a power less than 200 watts...HR 110. Then I would go for a brisk walk at some time in the day.
Day 5...off and a walk
Day 5.group ride or ride with friend...pretty hard...and really hard in the Spring with structure(yes timed) VO2 max pulls.
Day 7 OFF or recovery ride....maybe an moderate endurance length endurance ride if feeling really good.

Recovery rides need to be REALLY REALLY easy with no hills and no pressure on the legs. HR like 110. Power less than 200 watts. Time...60 minutes is more than enough.

Macrocycles should be 4 to 7 weeks in length(including a recovery week)....with progression in load from week to week before a recover week....then start up again but with a lower load than the last week or two of the previous cycle. Longer cycles are better IF IF IF you can make progression. You do longer cycles with less build up from week to week...you trick you body into progressive gains.
"

 

 

 


Edited by numminummi - 3/13/12 at 2:02pm
post #2 of 37

Currently I am doing 6-7 rides 3-1/2 to 4 hours mostly L3 each week. But there is a 20 minute section on the way out and on the way back that I do at L4 most days. I used to do similar work when I was younger but the days were 6 hours long.

 

If you read the claims of the short hard work weeks, they appear to be sufficient for 1 hour events. Not so good for 3-6 hour events.

 

---

 

For middle of the pack guys racing a couple times a month any plan works. If you want to race with the pros, no plan is going to work.

 

 

post #3 of 37
Numminummi,

Where's the new training paradigm - or was that article written in 1991? :p

Old Guy,

Where during that near hour of threshold and many hours level3 do you put in the hour of sprints?

Since I ride 26 hours a day I'm finding a little hard to figure out where to put the L9 work.
post #4 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by swampy1970 View Post

Numminummi,
Where's the new training paradigm - or was that article written in 1991? :p
Old Guy,
Where during that near hour of threshold and many hours level3 do you put in the hour of sprints?
Since I ride 26 hours a day I'm finding a little hard to figure out where to put the L9 work.


Hahah :) - new to me however. only thing is that a lot of guys on that forum seems to support that cutting out L2 and substituting with more L4 gives greater gains than 20 hours weeks.

post #5 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by swampy1970 View Post


Old Guy,
Where during that near hour of threshold and many hours level3 do you put in the hour of sprints?
 


The best rule of thumb for getting better in sprints is to not take a stronger sprinter to the line.

 

----

 

I guess you sit around all day waiting until it is time to do your training.

 

I usually ride my bike until it is time to do my training. Typical day: an hour of base miles (L3); 20 minutes of training (L4); 30 minutes of base miles; 20 minutes of training; an hour of base miles.

 

---

 

Yesterday was the first warm day (80+) this spring for cycling. I was toast after 2-1/2 hours - a couple pounds light in the water department. But I am feeling much better this morning.


Edited by An old Guy - 3/14/12 at 9:07am
post #6 of 37

GO find the "Its Killing me but" thread. There are 325+ pages of discussion on this exact topic. RapDaddyo and RG from the CM site could be twins..... at least in their training recommendations.

post #7 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAL1955 View Post

GO find the "Its Killing me but" thread. There are 325+ pages of discussion on this exact topic. RapDaddyo and RG from the CM site could be twins..... at least in their training recommendations.



Hard to find the good stuff in 'its killing me' after p. 30 most is just chit chat. Any specific pages in the thread that has good advise? :)

post #8 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by numminummi View Post



Hard to find the good stuff in 'its killing me' after p. 30 most is just chit chat. Any specific pages in the thread that has good advise? :)


 

IMO Dave's summary in one post

 

http://www.cyclingforums.com/t/314849/its-killing-me-but/4740#post_4010686

 

 

 

post #9 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felt_Rider View Post


 

IMO Dave's summary in one post

 

http://www.cyclingforums.com/t/314849/its-killing-me-but/4740#post_4010686

 

 

 



I've been looking for something like that for 89 pages now hissyfit.gif

 

THANKS!

post #10 of 37

You should be looking for the posts by RDO, they will be mostly long and detailed. Dave sums it up pretty well. The crux of the program is to work at 91+% of FTP at least twice a week around your other riding. The recommended starting point is 2 by X minutes based on how long you can hold 91% of FTP pace. The starting point for Tyson was 2x10 minutes at 130 watts. You gradually increase the duration to 20 to 30 minutes and the intervals to 3 by X. When this is accomplished and you feel like you can do more up your target wattage by 10 watts and repeat, rinse, repeat, etc.  This process builds your FTP. You still have to address your AWC and VO2max through higher intensity shorter duration intervals.

 

The thread reads like a War and Peace novel at times and like a "Housewives of" script at others, but in between, there are many nuggets of wisdom, and a few times throughout, there are summaries by folks like Dave, Felt and others. The cilff notes version loses a lot of the explanation of why and details of the how for many of the concepts. For me, that was important to understand, so I waded through all 328 pages as I formulated my plan. I also found the Q&A between serious and experienced posters to be helpful in my understanding. Ignore the banter, and just ignore "The Old Guy"; he's entertaining but his posts seem more than a little hard to believe.  As someone a year ago that struggled to hold a 16mph pace in a pace line, to one who can hold a 22-23mph pace for an hour now, I find the concepts to work. I'm never going to race or compete in anything other than our spirited group rides, I just want to hang with the cool kids (guys half my age) for longer.

 

Enjoy and Good Luck

 

DAL 

post #11 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAL1955 View Post

You should be looking for the posts by RDO, they will be mostly long and detailed. Dave sums it up pretty well. The crux of the program is to work at 91+% of FTP at least twice a week around your other riding. The recommended starting point is 2 by X minutes based on how long you can hold 91% of FTP pace.

 

Enjoy and Good Luck

 

DAL 



Does it say anything about how often to hit L4 during season with races sat & sun?

post #12 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAL1955 View Post

As someone a year ago that struggled to hold a 16mph pace in a pace line, to one who can hold a 22-23mph pace for an hour now, I find the concepts to work. I'm never going to race or compete in anything other than our spirited group rides, I just want to hang with the cool kids (guys half my age) for longer.

 

Enjoy and Good Luck

 

DAL 


Ahh...it is good to see another positive testimony. I am right there with you on all that you said.
 

 

post #13 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by An old Guy View Post


The best rule of thumb for getting better in sprints is to not take a stronger sprinter to the line.

 

----

 

I guess you sit around all day waiting until it is time to do your training.

 

I usually ride my bike until it is time to do my training. Typical day: an hour of base miles (L3); 20 minutes of training (L4); 30 minutes of base miles; 20 minutes of training; an hour of base miles.

 

---

 

Yesterday was the first warm day (80+) this spring for cycling. I was toast after 2-1/2 hours - a couple pounds light in the water department. But I am feeling much better this morning.


No... The way to get better in sprints is to train to sprint. The way to become more sucessful if you're not a sprinter is to not drag a sprinter to the line. A big difference.

 

My training schedule is revolves around work and "life". Then again I don't claim to be able to do the impossible like some around here.

 

No L5? Wimp. ;)

 

Numminummi,

 

Andy Coggan put together an interesting PowerPoint presentation about training for the individual pursuit. Do a search for:

 

andy coggan pursuit training powerpoint

 

Fortunately training isn't rocket science - change the last phase to something that suits the road more than a few minutes of death on the pines (aka the pursuit) - maybe you don't need to change it if you're lacking in top end... The Allen/Coggan book on training and racing with a powermeter has lots of good stuff in there too. Part of "the fun" is figuring out what works best for you and working that into what you'd like to do and then what you need to do - based upon your strengths/weaknesses. More people fail in situations where they don't have enough power to cover a move than they do in not having the endurance yet many fail to act upon that in training.

post #14 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by numminummi View Post



Does it say anything about how often to hit L4 during season with races sat & sun?


There is a discussion in there about "minutes at L4" in relation to preparing for an event or two. Tyson was working up to some long races and I know there was talk of his preparation and tapering up to the event. Better yet, RDO is still around, send him a pm with your specific questions, he will probably answer, but give the guy some respect and read his previous posts. He has put a wealth of info out there for us to use. If you can't find your answer, PM him.

DAL
post #15 of 37


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by swampy1970 View Post

More people fail in situations where they don't have enough power to cover a move than they do in not having the endurance yet many fail to act upon that in training.


IME the new paradigm covers this shortcoming pretty well but falls short on the endurance piece. The L4/5/6 intensive programs (AKA time crunch) are good for developing repeatable short effort power but not so great for long term FTP gains (which is where Dave's summary of Felt's post and the War and Peace epic that is "it's killing me..." shine). With this type of training I can cover many or the moves in my local relatively flat races but I'm not likely to break away solo or do any TT's proud. And to further digress, they are probably good for a wheelsucker like me looking to be chauffeured to within the final 200m. The downside for a "sprinter type" on this kind of plan is one's limiting factors will likely remain limiting factors. Hopefully I haven't missed the context of the discussion, am a little light on sleep today.

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