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post #16 of 33

Re: How long can uncooked chicken sit outside fridge before going bad?

On 15 Dec 2003 12:14:00 GMT, penmart01@aol.como (PENMART01) wrote:

>And why can't you write proper sentences, is not English your native tongue.

Speaking of proper sentances... you dolt.

-sw
post #17 of 33

Re: How long can uncooked chicken sit outside fridge before going bad?

On 15 Dec 2003 21:09:37 GMT, penmart01@aol.como (PENMART01) wrote:

>sentance structure
^
?
"e"

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
post #18 of 33

Re: How long can uncooked chicken sit outside fridge before going bad?

On 15 Dec 2003 21:09:37 GMT, penmart01@aol.como (PENMART01) wrote:

>sentance structure
^
?
"e"

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
post #19 of 33

Re: How long can uncooked chicken sit outside fridge before going bad?

On 15 Dec 2003 21:09:37 GMT, penmart01@aol.como (PENMART01) wrote:

><sqwertz@clueless> writes:
>
>>(PENMART01) wrote:
>>
>>>And why can't you write proper sentances, is not English your native tongue.'?'
>>
>>Speaking of proper sentances... you dolt.
>
>There's nothing wrong wth that sentance structure, but yours is a friggin' fragment, like your
>meager brain.

I said nothing about sentence structure. And that'll teach you to copy my spelling, too. Care to dig
yourself any further?

>Btw, anyone checks they'll discover I rarely use question marks, only when I actually want
>an answer..

Rhetorical questions still require questions marks to form proper sentences, which was your
original gripe.

BTW, acronyms need to be capitalized; 'Btw" doesn't cut it, and implies that you're trying to form a
vowell-less word of some sort.

Idiot.

-sw
post #20 of 33

Re: How long can uncooked chicken sit outside fridge before going bad?

On 15 Dec 2003 22:15:34 GMT, penmart01@aol.como (PENMART01) wrote:

>Spelling is not sentence structure, you moroon.
^ ?

HTH,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
post #21 of 33

Re: How long can uncooked chicken sit outside fridge before going bad?

Ed wrote:
>
> On 15 Dec 2003 22:15:34 GMT, penmart01@aol.como (PENMART01) wrote:
>
> >Spelling is not sentence structure, you moroon.
> ^ ?
>
> HTH,
> --
> Kenneth

(laugh) I have no idea what you two are arguing about, but moroon is classic Bugs Bunny.

nancy
post #22 of 33

Re: How long can uncooked chicken sit outside fridge before going

Scott wrote:

> In article <robinxjoy-9A2398.23081514122003@news.west.cox.net>, Robin <robinxjoy@yahoo.com> wrote:
>=20
>>I purchased chicken thighs at Costco, and wasn't able to get home for=20 about 4-5 hours. It sat
>>in the car, local temps are about 60-65 degrees=
=2E =20
>>Got it home, put in fridge, now two days later, assuming its still good=
, =20
>>need to cook up now before more time goes by. Would you toss it or use=
=20
>>it? Can you tell by odor alone if its ok?
>=20
> Toss it. According to the US Department of Agriculture:
>=20
> "Pathogenic bacteria do not generally affect the taste, smell, or=20 appearance of a food. In
> other words, one cannot tell that a food has=20 been mishandled or is dangerous to eat. For
> example, food that has been=
=20
> left too long on the counter may be dangerous to eat, but could smell=20 and look fine. If a food
> has been left in the "Danger Zone" =AD between=
40=20
> and 140 =B0 F =AD for more than 2 hours, discard it, even though it may=
look=20
> and smell good. Never taste a food to see if it is spoiled."
>=20
> <http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OA/FAQ/hotlinefaq.htm#6>

Never taste *raw* chicken to see if it's spoiled. Never taste a food=20 *from the counter* to see.
Never leave food on the counter for a few=20 hours and *then pick it up and eat it* without cooking
it or heating=20 it to a safe temperature.

The meat didn't instantly leap from 25F to 65F. It would take the=20 better part of a few hours to
get up to those temperatures if it were=20 just sitting out. In a sealed package with a plastic
wrapper over a=20 styrofoam tray, with the meat pressed together as Costco does it, the=20
temperature wouldn't rise appreciably for quite a while. It's packaged=20 that way just for that
eventuality.

Some science that flies in the face of "common sense": <http://www.hi-tm.com/Documents2001/time-temp-
calculations.html>

Here's the bacterial growth curves for cooked foods. <http://www.hi-tm.com/Documents2001/time-temp-
calculations.html>

Cooking it will kill salmonella and anything else it may contain. By=20 the time it reaches 165F
internal, it's virtually sterile. Spoilage=20 and pathogenic bacteria alike will be killed.

Pastorio
post #23 of 33

Re: How long can uncooked chicken sit outside fridge before going bad?

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 00:51:13 -0500, Bob Pastorio <pastorio@rica.net>
wrote:

>Cooking it will kill salmonella and anything else it may contain. By the time it reaches 165F
>internal, it's virtually sterile. Spoilage and pathogenic bacteria alike will be killed.

It just might not taste very good :-)

-sw
post #24 of 33

Re: How long can uncooked chicken sit outside fridge before going bad?

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 00:51:13 -0500, Bob Pastorio <pastorio@rica.net>
wrote:

>Scott wrote:
>
>> Robin <robinxjoy@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I purchased chicken thighs at Costco, and wasn't able to get home for about 4-5 hours. It sat in
>>>the car, local temps are about 60-65 degrees. Got it home, put in fridge, now two days later,
>>>assuming its still good, need to cook up now before more time goes by. Would you toss it or use
>>>it? Can you tell by odor alone if its ok?
>>
>> Toss it. According to the US Department of Agriculture:
<snip quote>
>> <http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OA/FAQ/hotlinefaq.htm#6>
>
>The meat didn't instantly leap from 25F to 65F. It would take the better part of a few hours to get
>up to those temperatures if it were just sitting out. In a sealed package with a plastic wrapper
>over a styrofoam tray, with the meat pressed together as Costco does it, the temperature wouldn't
>rise appreciably for quite a while. It's packaged that way just for that eventuality.

Did we ever learn if the chicken was originally frozen or just in a refrigerator case? I think those
are supposed to be around 40F. 5 hrs in a car (where it would probably be a good deal warmer than
the ambient 60-65F mentioned) would be plenty of time to make *me* suspicious.
>
>Some science that flies in the face of "common sense": <http://www.hi-tm.com/Documents2001/time-temp-
>calculations.html>

This is for cooked food, presumably starting out with 1 itty bitty bacteria, not for raw chicken.
Since a startling percentage of chicken sold in the US has an appreciable amount of Salmonella
bacteria to start out with, the 'safe' time at various temperatures on this chart has no practical
relevance.
>
>Here's the bacterial growth curves for cooked foods. <http://www.hi-tm.com/Documents2001/time-temp-
>calculations.html>

(same chart)
post #25 of 33

Re: How long can uncooked chicken sit outside fridge before going

Frogleg wrote:

> On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 00:51:13 -0500, Bob Pastorio <pastorio@rica.net> wrote:
>=20
>>Scott wrote:
>>
>>> Robin <robinxjoy@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I purchased chicken thighs at Costco, and wasn't able to get home for=
=20
>>>>about 4-5 hours. It sat in the car, local temps are about 60-65 degre=
es. =20
>>>>Got it home, put in fridge, now two days later, assuming its still go=
od, =20
>>>>need to cook up now before more time goes by. Would you toss it or u=
se=20
>>>>it? Can you tell by odor alone if its ok?
>>>
>>>Toss it. According to the US Department of Agriculture:
>=20
> <snip quote>
>=20
>>><http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OA/FAQ/hotlinefaq.htm#6>
>>
>>The meat didn't instantly leap from 25F to 65F. It would take the=20 better part of a few hours to
>>get up to those temperatures if it were=20 just sitting out. In a sealed package with a plastic
>>wrapper over a=20 styrofoam tray, with the meat pressed together as Costco does it, the=20
>>temperature wouldn't rise appreciably for quite a while. It's packaged =

>>that way just for that eventuality.
>=20 20
> Did we ever learn if the chicken was originally frozen or just in a refrigerator case? I think
> those are supposed to be around 40F.

Commercial packaged chicken isn't "frozen," it's "superchilled."=20 That's the silly trade term.
It's "superchilled" to a rocklike texture=20 and bears a remarkable resemblance to "frozen" chicken.
The poultry=20 and fish cases at Costco are generally kept at 33F to 35F. The=20 "superchilled"
granitic chicken is put into the cases as delivered.=20 The poultry packers discovered that
superchilling their products=20 killed some bacteria, seriously slowed others and extended the
shelf=20 life in stores.

We don't know the beginning temperature of the product as purchased in=20 the post, nor do we know
the final temperature as it was put into the=20 fridge.

> 5 hrs in a car (where it would probably be a good deal warmer than the ambient 60-65F mentioned)

We have no way of knowing that. Was it sunny? Was the car closed? Was=20 the chicken in the path of
an operating heater? Was it in a cardboard=20 box with other cold foods? We have no way of knowing
from the original=20 post.

> would be plenty of time to make *me* suspicious.
>=20
>>Some science that flies in the face of "common sense": <http://www.hi-tm.com/Documents2001/time-temp-
>>calculations.html>

> This is for cooked food, presumably starting out with 1 itty bitty bacteria, not for raw chicken.
> Since a startling percentage of chicken sold in the US has an appreciable amount of Salmonella
> bacteria to start out with, the 'safe' time at various temperatures on this chart has no practical
> relevance.

Yes, it's for cooked food but it makes two important points. First;=20 that there isn't much
bacterial contamination in cooked food (so=20 cooking it drastically reduces and controls that
"appreciable" amount=20 of bacterial contamination, see last reference below) and, second; the=20
growth rate isn't as fast as most people think. If the chicken=20 actually did get to 65F, the total
number of bacteria would double in=20 2 hours thereafter. But that doesn't matter because cooking it
to more=20 than 160F makes it safe.

In my original note, I sent the same thing twice. My mistake. Here's=20 what I meant to send the
first time. This other chart deals with=20 thawing frozen birds at room temp. While we don't know
that the=20 chicken necessarily was frozen when purchased, the situation vis a vis=20 bacterial
growth in frozen and room temp thawed chicken is germane=20 here. This is a small part of the paper,
for full details, go to: <http://www.hi-tm.com/Documents/Thaw-counter.html>

<<<<<<<< begin quote >>>>>>>>>>>>

Differences in bacterial population before freezing and after thawing=20 were assessed. The aerobic
plate count, Enterobacteriaceae, and=20 pseudomonad populations of the skin of uninoculated chickens
did not=20 increase when the chickens were thawed on the counter in less than 10=20 hours to an
internal temperature of 40F within the breast. The most=20 notable observation was that there was a
small increase (0.5 log10=20 CFU/g) in the population of pseudomonad bacteria (spoilage bacteria)=20
when the chicken was thawed under refrigeration, which took about 55=20 hours.

In another part of this study, chickens were inoculated with=20 Salmonella hadar in order to assess
the effect of the different=20 thawing methods on the growth of this microorganism. It was shown=20
that there was a slight decrease in the population of Salmonella=20 hadar-inoculated chickens frozen
and thawed at room temperature to an=20 internal temperature of 40F within the breast. This same
decrease was=20 noted in chickens frozen and thawed in flowing water and in=20 refrigeration. This
latter observation demonstrates the reduction in=20 cell numbers because of freezing injury and the
inability of this=20 strain of salmonellae to grow below 45F.

In summary, the research study by Jim=E9nez et al. (1999) supports the=20 previous study by Klose et
al. (1968). The USDA is correct to allow=20 raw meat, fish, and poultry to thaw at room temperature.
There is no=20 risk in thawing these products at room temperature.

<<<<<<<<< end quote >>>>>>>>

From another paper: <http://www.hi-tm.com/homeprep/home-VI.html> <<<<<<<<<< begin quote >>>>>>>>
Keeping food at 50F for a short period of time, say 1 hour, is a=20 spoilage problem, not a food
safety problem." <<< snip >>>

[And, if the food is held at 50F or more and it noticeably spoils, can=20 it be made safe?]

If Raw Food Is Spoiled High numbers of spoilage bacteria in raw food will NOT make you sick.=20 When
food spoils microbiologically, the spoilage microorganisms grow=20 on the surface until they totally
cover the surface, perhaps 2 to 3=20 layers deep. At this point, surfaces of foods such as meat,
poultry or=20 fish feel "slimy", and there can be 20,000,000 to 50,000,000=20 microorganisms per
gram or per square inch of food. This is when=20 hamburger smells sour and turns brown, and fish and
chicken turn slimy=20 and have very objectionable odors. The growth of spoilage bacteria on=20 green
onions harvested during a wet growing season causes the onions=20 to become slimy, and yellow onions
to become soft.

***When spoiled food is cooked above 160F to make it safe,*** it may=20 have a foul odor. For this
reason, spices and herbs have been added to=20 food throughout the centuries to mask the off-
flavors and off-odors of=20 spoiled or partially spoiled food. [***emphasis mine] <<<<<<<< end
quote >>>>>>>>

Pastorio
post #26 of 33

Re: How long can uncooked chicken sit outside fridge before going

Katra wrote:
>
> Elizabeth Reid wrote:
>
>>Frogleg <frogleg@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>news:<3gsrtv08jb72sfj2l7a0mf241flo52mo6m@4ax.com>...
>>
>>
>>>"When in doubt, throw it out" is *such* a good guideline. Even to know enough to ask the question
>>>implies one knows the meat's safety/taste may be compromised. UDSA/FDA/other recommendations may
>>>err on the cautious side, but I don't want to cook a dish and wonder, start to finish, while
>>>eating, and when waking the next day if I should make sure I'm able to dial 911 in the middle of
>>>stomach cramps. Much less that my name is going to be in the paper as host of a Ptomaine Picnic.
>>
>>I use this guideline. My husband makes fun of me and my paranoia, as he thinks I throw out food
>>that is perfectly fine. However, before he met me, he used to get 'the stomach flu' at least twice
>>a year. Mysteriously, in the seven years we've been together he hasn't had it once. He's probably
>>right that I do sometimes throw away food that's fine, but I'd rather toss dubious food than toss
>>my cookies!
>>
>>Beth
>
>
> It's also more economical... :-) Tossing $10.00 worth of food vs. a $600.00 ER bill?
>
> You do the math. <G>
>
> I have insurance so ER only runs me $75.00 co-pay, but still....
>
> K.
>

I would wash the meat, and then cook it thoroughly. If it stinks when I cook it, I would throw it
out. Any bacteria will be killed during cooking.

If it smelled OK but I still didn't quite trust it, I'd pressure cook it and make a big batch of
chicken soup. I'm not sure that even streptococcus toxin (the most heat stable spoilage product I
can think of) will survive half an hour in a pressure cooker.

Best regards, Bob
post #27 of 33

Re: How long can uncooked chicken sit outside fridge before going

Katra wrote:

>
> Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
>>Katra wrote:
>>
>>
>>>DJS0302 wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Just because cooking spoiled food kills the bacteria does not make it safe to eat. Bacteria also
>>>>produce toxins that cannot always be neutralized by cooking.
>>>
>>>Like botulism???? <G>
>>
>>Well, botulism is one that produces a toxin. But cooking gets rid of it. That's why the USDA says
>>to cook home-canned foods for 10 minutes before service. But you aren't likely to find botulism in
>>raw chicken since it's an anaerobe.
>
> I knew that. :-) It's most common in canned foods, not fresh raw, and anaerobes produce gas which
> causes the ends of the cans to bulge. Never EVER eat a bulgy can! Don't even open it.
>
> But, are you sure that Botulinum toxin is destroyed by cooking? I understood that it was not???

Source: Excerpted from FDA/CFSAN Food Safety A to Z Reference Guide, September 2001

Do all toxins in food survive the cooking process?

No, all toxins in food do not survive the cooking process. In fact, the botulism toxin caused
by Clostridium botulinum can be inactivated by cooking. Boiling food for 10 minutes eliminates
this toxin.

>>There's a difference between pathogenic (harmful) and spoilage bacteria. They function
>>independently of each other. Simultaneous but different processes.
>>
>>Pastorio
>
>
> Well, does not "hanging" beef for 40 days cause a mild amount of spoilage and breakdown of the
> meat and contribute to tenderness? This is one reason that dad has sworn off beef. He believes
> that "aged" beef is rotten and full of carcinogens.

The reason for aging beef is to permit naturally-occurring enzymes to partially digest the meat and
thereby tenderize it. Fresh beef is called "green" by butchers and is tough and lacks flavor. Aging
deals with both issues.

With dry-aged meats, there's a bit of mold growth on the surface that's trimmed/scraped off (much
like the mold on country hams). Wet-aged meats (in cryovac bags) don't improve anywhere near as
much. And they aren't so much deliberately aged as that they take time in transit from
slaughterhouse to display in markets.

There's less and less of that cryovac aging nowadays with pre-packaged meats injected with stuff
done in factory settings rather than in-store cutting.

Dad doesn't have to worry about 40-day aged beef. If it actually were aged that long (by skilled
butchers in proper, exacting conditions) it would cost a lot more than we see in markets. Aged meats
are very expensive because of the amount of weight loss through evaporation of juices, the time
spent in storage and the additional labor to process it properly.

There's no 40-day aged meat sitting in supermarket coolers.

> No, this is not MY belief, but I find his viewpoint interesting... :-)

Flat earth is an interesting viewpoint, too.

Pastorio
post #28 of 33

Re: How long can uncooked chicken sit outside fridge before going bad?

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:11:48 GMT, "Jack Schidt®"
<jack-schidt@snot.net> wrote:

>
>"Reg" <reg@nospam.com> wrote in message news:tifDb.36744$ve3.13718@newssvr32.news.prodigy.com...
>> Katra wrote:
>>
>> > Personally, if they still smelled ok, I'd cook them up for the chooks.
>>
>> Odor isn't a reliable indicator for pathogens, so you shouldn't depend on it.
>>
>> If this were me: I would definetely not serve them to guests. I'd probably eat them myself
>> though, because they're fine in all likelihood.
>>
>> I see it this way... it's one thing to take a risk for myself, even if
>it's
>> small. It's quite another thing to involve others.
>>
>
>
>Amen. I bend the rules when it's just cooking for me. Especially rule F, as in 'fff-ffff', for when
>something hits the floor.
>
>Jack San-i-terry
>
i thought there was some kind of five-second rule. if it hasn't been on the floor for more than five
seconds, back into the pot it goes.

your pal, blake
post #29 of 33

Re: How long can uncooked chicken sit outside fridge before going bad?

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 17:29:46 -0500, Nancy Young
<qwerty@mail.monmouth.com> wrote:

>Ed wrote:
>>
>> On 15 Dec 2003 22:15:34 GMT, penmart01@aol.como (PENMART01) wrote:
>>
>> >Spelling is not sentence structure, you moroon.
>> ^ ?
>>
>> HTH,
>> --
>> Kenneth
>
>(laugh) I have no idea what you two are arguing about, but moroon is classic Bugs Bunny.
>
>nancy

i tend to agree. but sometimes you're dealing with the 'lose/loose' phenomenon.

your pal, blake
post #30 of 33

Re: How long can uncooked chicken sit outside fridge before going bad?

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 21:44:22 GMT, blake murphy <blakem@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:11:48 GMT, "Jack Schidt®" <jack-schidt@snot.net> wrote:
>>
>>Amen. I bend the rules when it's just cooking for me. Especially rule F, as in 'fff-ffff', for
>>when something hits the floor.
>>
>>Jack San-i-terry
>>
>i thought there was some kind of five-second rule. if it hasn't been on the floor for more than
>five seconds, back into the pot it goes.

My interpretation of the rule is that it goes into my mouth, but the pot is as good a destination as
any if it's not cooked through.
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