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The Bikesmith, Seattle, shutting down - Page 7

post #91 of 137

Re: The Bikesmith, Seattle, shutting down

In article <8bbde8fc.0401240950.79bc64da@posting.google.com>,
carlfogel@comcast.net (Carl Fogel) wrote:

> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message news:<10146qoq6nk0vfe@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > On 23 Jan 2004 09:28:34 -0800, beelzebubba@hotmail.com (Jonesy) wrote:
> > >>On man-made surfaces? I will give a grudging "maybe." If the bike is used at all in the dirt,
> > >>forward-facing QR levers could spell disaster. And the bikes look like they should be used in
> > >>the dirt.
> > -snip-
> >
> > Rick Onanian wrote:
> > > Or, for that matter, if the bike is used near the shoulder of the road, where brush, vines,
> > > and other vegetation can catch the skewer as well as they can on dirt.-snip-
> >
> >
> > Although it seems logically possible, can anyone here recount an actual case of a skewer lever
> > opened by impact with stationary object? I can't.
>
> Dear Andrew,
>
> To be fair, the vast majority of quick-release levers are probably installed facing backward, so
> incidents would be few and far between.
>
> Alternatively, perhaps dead men tell no tales?

One other angle on this is the number of QRs that are not used as a quick release, but a wrench
to tighten the wheel on. You know, when someone spins the lever around and around until it
tightens up? I have seen this way more often than I'd like to. Sort of like those big-ass wing
nuts that cheap bikes came with in the seventies.

--
tanx, Howard

"I'm not lying, I'm writing fiction with my lips!" Homer Simpson

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
post #92 of 137

Re: The Bikesmith, Seattle, shutting down

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 01:02:21 -0600, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
wrote:

>I'm OK with the guy who will work for less. (sometimes it is I!) Perhaps he is learning his trade.
>Perhaps it's just a second job while he saves for a house. If your skills/speed/convenience/added
>value are not worth more to your customer, perhaps it isn't _his_ rate that's out of line!

My point is that with the experience I have I CAN do a better job in less time in the bike shop or
anywhere else. A lot of what I do now has the very real and immediate potential to kill people if
not done right. While this may somewhat preclude an accurate comparison to fixing or selling a bike
it is true that someone who knows his business to the point of fanaticism is of value to those who
share his ethic for a job done well and even those who don't when he saves them money by a) not
selling crap or the wrong thing and b) not walking away from a job not done well.

Here is a visual example of my biz and what happens when by someone who may be "Perhaps... learning
his trade" is allowed to do a job he's not experienced enough to do well.
http://www.roadie.net/vegastruss.htm This was caused by a "customer" to whom the
"skills/speed/convenience/added value" of hiring a competent rigger were not "worth more". If this
guy were running a bike shop he'd be the guy who wouldn't spring to hire a good wheel builder but
would happily charge the going rate to the customer for a handbuilt wheel.

A major point of my argument is that the perception of savings is not always the way it works out to
be in the long run.

>Markets often accommodate a wide range of prices to good effect because there are other factors, as
>you note.

Yep, public ignorance not the least of them. I agree that not everyone needs a good bike shop all
the time but it's the ***** not have one when you do and if it means paying a buck more for brake
pads I think it's worth it.

jeffb
post #93 of 137

Re: The Bikesmith, Seattle, shutting down

beelzebubba@hotmail.com (Jonesy) writes:
> > As to correct pressure or tightness, nope again--no cheap semantic tricks (I have them available
> > in a handsome selection if needed.)
>
> I do believe you are seizing on a particular word to try and salvage your "good enough" argument.
> Let me just state that while I do believe that it might be "tight enough" to get out of the store,
> it might not stand up to much riding. Or it might. But that doesn't say anything about the rest of
> the bike. And for commuting, when there are cars around, equipment failure could have dire
> consequences.

Just to reinforce this point -- someone I knew in high school was killed by this. His chain broke
while riding up a hill, and he was hit by a truck as a result...

Chris
--
Chris Colohan Email: chris@colohan.ca PGP: finger colohan@cs.cmu.edu Web: www.colohan.com Phone:
(412)268-4751
post #94 of 137

Re: The Bikesmith, Seattle, shutting down

jeffbonny wrote:
>

> A major point of my argument is that the perception of savings is not always the way it works out
> to be in the long run.

Well of course. The only important thing is that "it is what the seller says it is" and the price is
clear. That is pretty much what the buyer-seller contract entails.

I like to try "off-brand" ketchup since it is usually cheaper. If I perceive the quality of the off-
brand is good enough for the price, I continue to use it. If not, I decide to pay the premium for
the name-brand. I want the freedom to figure it out myself. My freedom of choice helps drive the
ketchup industry to be more efficient at producing good ketchup at low prices. The point is to
benefit consumers of ketchup, not suppliers of ketchup.

> >Markets often accommodate a wide range of prices to good effect because there are other factors,
> >as you note.
>
> Yep, public ignorance not the least of them.

People need to be responsible for themselves. People need the freedom to learn their own lessons.
That is the way the world works. If they get "closed" into buying "stuff" they didn't need, well
tough ****. Shielding people from the consequences of their own choices breeds defective culture.
Never mind "sustainable agriculture, sustainable logging," and such. The more important issue in
human endeavors is sustainable culture, and that means people need to feel the effect of their
life choices. It is the basic "pain response." Pain serves a wonderful purpose -- it keeps us from
putting our hands in the oven. None of this says there shouldn't be "insurance policies" that
lower individual exposure to risk from what is primarily "bad luck." Pooling risk is a wonderful
thing, really.

> I agree that not everyone needs a good bike shop all the time but it's the ***** not have one when
> you do and if it means paying a buck more for brake pads I think it's worth it.

With you as a consumer of that good, I have no problem with your choice there. Just don't try to say
others have an obligation to purchase what you purchase and where you purchase it.
post #95 of 137

Re: The Bikesmith, Seattle, shutting down

jeffbonny wrote:
>

> >> >The Bikesmith could not figure out a model. It died.
> >>
> >> You might be wrong.
> >
> >But I'm not.
>
> If you know this from personal dealings with Bikesmith I'll accept this statement. If you are
> saying it from a distant posture of "that which is self evident" I'm callin' bull****.

Chalo wrote: "I went to the shop to see Val, round up a few odds and ends from the place (now
looking bombed and subsequently looted), and hopefully help a bit with his bankruptcy arrangements."

"Turns out the landlord is kicking Val & Co. out of the store soon, and nothing can be done at
this point."

"Actually, the landlord has reached his limit of patience with The Bikesmith being late on rent."

His creditors shut him down. The Bikesmith is defunct as a business model.
post #96 of 137

Re: OT: Motorcycle skid plates

"Carl Fogel" <carlfogel@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:8bbde8fc.0401261219.33c43bc9@posting.google.com...
> > What do the contemporary trials bikes use (Gas-Gas, Beta, etc)? I
can't
> > tell from the pics, but it looks like they hang the engines and wrap a plate under it now. I'd
> > assume no one puts the clutch lever underneath
like
> > that anymore.
>
> Dear Howard,
>
> I haven't paid any real attention to modern trials machines, but I expect that you're right. Using
> the transmission as the lower frame saves weight, increases ground clearance, and lowers the
> center of mass.

Time to catch up now:

http://www.motorcycle-trials.com/

- CA-G

Can-Am Girls Kick Ass!
post #97 of 137

Re: The Bikesmith, Seattle, shutting down

David Kerber wrote:
>
> In article <8bbde8fc.0401261204.583021e9@posting.google.com>, carlfogel@comcast.net says...
> > A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message news:<1019esbaqbakk88@corp.supernews.com>...
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > I date a convenience store manager who tells me she will sell half as much gasoline in a day
> > > when she is 1c over the guy a block away. That is to say, some large number of people actually
> > > look at the price of gasoline before buying. This stunned me, but then again I buy a tank
> > > every month or six weeks and I could not tell you what it costs.
>
> Well, people driving an Excursion with a 30-gallon tank and having to fill it up every few days
> will likely have a different attitude about it than you do. When I had my Escort Diesel (45 mpg
> commuting to work, 56-58 on the highway), I felt like you do.

If it is a 30 gal tank and the per-gal price difference is 1¢, then cost delta is 30¢ per complete
tankful. If you can afford an Excursion, and a place to park it, then that 30¢ probably doesn't mean
much. The gas supply business is highly competetive, that is about all that explains Andrew's date's
experience. If someone sees a lower price, all other things apparently equal, then folks will take
that lower price.
post #98 of 137

Re: The Bikesmith, Seattle, shutting down

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:24:32 -0800, gwhite <gwhite@hocuspocus_ti.com>
wrote:

snip

>People need to be responsible for themselves. People need the freedom to learn their own lessons.
>That is the way the world works. If they get "closed" into buying "stuff" they didn't need, well
>tough ****. Shielding people from the consequences of their own choices breeds defective culture.

I agree however it is certainly not in a large chain store or MO's interest to educate people how to
best exercise those freedoms. I believe that corporate culture has limited freedom through clever
manipulation (aka advertizing). Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with advertizing but
when you have the funds to remain constantly in the public's face you can sell 'em anything and
that's a fact. MacDonanald's ain't sold all them billions of burgers 'cause they're good. We the
public have increasingly traded quality for convenience and I just hate seeing this happen in to
bike shops. I'm not really arguing right or wrong, should or should't I'm just saying it makes me
sad to see. God knows if I had any real answers I'd still be in business.

snip

>With you as a consumer of that good, I have no problem with your choice there. Just don't try to
>say others have an obligation to purchase what you purchase and where you purchase it.

Never said that, never will.

jeffb
post #99 of 137

Re: The Bikesmith, Seattle, shutting down

In article <922c10hq8qm8g4nu27029sssfvcsst0ns6@4ax.com>,
jeffbonny <jeffbonny@REMCAPSshaw.ca> wrote:
> interest to educate people how to best exercise those freedoms. I believe that corporate culture
> has limited freedom through clever manipulation (aka advertizing). Not that there is necessarily
> anything

This is a standard Usenet meme. ``The general population are fools who are manipulated by marketing,
but I am much cleverer than that and am immune to it.'' Notice how many people claim to ignore
adverts, how few say they are influenced by them.

> fact. MacDonanald's ain't sold all them billions of burgers 'cause they're good.

And to judge from their desperate rebranding exercises and reductions in number of outlets, their
advertising isn't working too well either.

> We the public have increasingly traded quality for convenience

As Stephen Bayley points out, today you can have for pence (cents) a disposable razor and a
disposable pen which function better than anything available to Louis XIV. When is the golden age
for the consumer you are claiming existed?

ian
post #100 of 137

Re: The Bikesmith, Seattle, shutting down

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:42:20 +0000 (UTC), Ian G Batten
<I.G.Batten@batten.eu.org> wrote:

>In article <922c10hq8qm8g4nu27029sssfvcsst0ns6@4ax.com>, jeffbonny
><jeffbonny@REMCAPSshaw.ca> wrote:
>> interest to educate people how to best exercise those freedoms. I believe that corporate culture
>> has limited freedom through clever manipulation (aka advertizing). Not that there is necessarily
>> anything
>
>This is a standard Usenet meme. ``The general population are fools who are manipulated by
>marketing, but I am much cleverer than that and am immune to it.'' Notice how many people claim to
>ignore adverts, how few say they are influenced by them.

And you sell me short on what? Statistics? I haven't owned a TV for about fifteen years, I don't
read a newspaper very often. and now that I can get uninterrupted jazz via the web I don't even
listen to the radio much. And y'know what? I don't claim that this makes me immune to advertizing
because it doesn't. So piss up a rope.

>> fact. MacDonanald's ain't sold all them billions of burgers 'cause they're good.
>
>And to judge from their desperate rebranding exercises and reductions in number of outlets, their
>advertising isn't working too well either.

Finally. Crap seen for being crap.

>> We the public have increasingly traded quality for convenience
>
>As Stephen Bayley points out, today you can have for pence (cents) a disposable razor and a
>disposable pen which function better than anything available to Louis XIV. When is the golden age
>for the consumer you are claiming existed?

Go take a logic course pal, I never said this and truth be known although I do like steel quill pens
you'll pry my Teflon coated twin razor outta my cold, dead hand. I'm just saying for the last time
I'm bummed out to be seeing small shops run by bike fanatics being replaced by retailers for whom
the almighty buck (pound sterling) is the ONLY motivation. I ride for more reasons than simply to
get a cheap bike and appreciate those who sell them for reasons other than JUST financial. What the
hell is so hard to grasp here? You can shop wherever you want and it's fine with me. Really.

jeffb
post #101 of 137

Re: The Bikesmith, Seattle, shutting down

"Ian G Batten" <I.G.Batten@batten.eu.org> wrote in message
news:bv5tcc$alv$1@news-out.ftel.co.uk...
>
> This is a standard Usenet meme. ``The general population are fools who are manipulated by
> marketing, but I am much cleverer than that and am immune to it.'' Notice how many people claim to
> ignore adverts, how few say they are influenced by them.

Dumbass -

Much of advertising is intended to be subliminal.

"When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other"

- Eric Hoffer
post #102 of 137

Re: The Bikesmith, Seattle, shutting down

jeffbonny wrote:
>

> We the public have increasingly traded quality for convenience and I just hate seeing this happen
> in to bike shops.

The highest quality bike I've ever owned was the one most recently purchased.

"Convenience" has an opportunity cost just like anything else.
post #103 of 137

Re: The Bikesmith, Seattle, shutting down

A Muzi wrote:
>

> Great example. I think you said it better than I. Price is only one of many factors!

I have a lot of respect for you because you rely on your own wits to be successful. However, we
could probably mince words on "Price is only one of many factors."

Since paying the price is the action which stamps the deal closed, it is legally "everything." The
mincing is considering what "everything" is for the price paid. For example, I might pay 50¢ for a
wink from a hot woman. A wink from you might send me riding away very fast. More seriously, the "raw
material" of the deal could be the same from different vendors, but certain value-adds from one of
the vendors will make apparent identical deals non-identical for those who can benefit from the value-
adds. The task of the vendor is to make the value-add clear to potential customers so they can see
that the "same price" does not necessarily mean equivalent "product." I have in mind things such as
smiling friendly help, "free" bike fittings, better "free" advice, "liberal" return/exchange
policies, and so on.

I presume that given "equal price," most buyers will take the value-add sale if they are clear
on the facts. Perhaps I am too optimistic. If the non-value-add price is lower than the value-
add price then some buyers are likely to say they don't "need" the value-add. How many times has
that happened?
post #104 of 137

Re: The Bikesmith, Seattle, shutting down

Tue, 27 Jan 2004 15:45:52 GMT,
<921d10180s925nck57m5i8dpgoe4gtc2j8@4ax.com>,
jeffbonny <jeffbonny@REMCAPSshaw.ca> wrote:

>I ride for more reasons than simply to get a cheap bike and appreciate those who sell them for
>reasons other than JUST financial. What the hell is so hard to grasp here?

Art must have price tag affixed to it before it's valued by these soulless number crunchers. Shun
them lest their affliction becomes contagious.
--
zk
post #105 of 137

Re: The Bikesmith, Seattle, shutting down

In rec.bicycles.tech Rick Onanian <spamsink@cox.net> wrote:
: Tangentially...what is a proper tip schedule for bike service?

from what i can tell it starts at a sixer of miller/budweiser and goes up to 2 or more sixers of
guinness or some local microbrew for special services or xmas or new year's.

it does always seem to be in beer, tho.
--
david reuteler reuteler@visi.com
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