Grudge Match Time: P-38 Vs. Bacchetta Giro

Cletus, I recall some years ago you had a Stratus? How do you think the Stratus would compare to
Giro and the P38 when it comes to speed?

Jim Reilly Reading, PA

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Cletus, I recall some years ago you had a Stratus? How do you think the Stratus would compare to
> Giro and the P38 when it comes to speed?

Both will out climb the Stratus. Since 1999, my highest avg speed for a ride was 18.6 mph on the
Stratus. My highest for the Voyager has been 17.5 (for a century last July). And I am seeing
routinely > 16.5 for both the Voyager and Giro. On any day, I can match speed with either the Giro
or the Voyager. "With-in the Statistical mean" I'd rate all three even except for hills.

For the money, the Giro buys you more speed over the P-38 but both seem to be fairly evenly matched.
--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
- Bellaire, TX USA -

Cletus Lee <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I must admit I have not followed the 'other' thread (yawn).
>
> I have been trying to determine which of my two bikes is the faster. Any comments?

I have a similar dilemma. Because of the recession I have felt that it is a politically incorrect
sign of bourgeous conspicuous consumption (plus my wife complains about it!) to own 2 bents-- in
addition to 2 DF's. I am vacillating between selling, or keeping, my RANS V2. My other bent is a
P-38. For me the question is not speed, but comfort. The RANS seat is definitely better, and the
longer wheel base is definitely easier to control. I have had both bikes over a year, with about
1000 miles on each. Average speeds are negligable betweeen the two bikes. The P-38 being a tad
faster, and definetly a better hill climber. But climbing hills ( quickly) is NOT a reason for
going bent! My 36 pound city commute bike (DF) is a better climber than both bents. So, I guess you
have to consider what is more important. Speed? Comfort? Or some other consideration?

Since you ride in a flat windy area you may want to add the Zzipper fairing that Lightning sells to
your Voyager. http://www.lightningbikes.com/accessor.htm#ZZIPPER%20FAIRING Should give you at least
a 1 mph speed boost.

John

"Cletus Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> I must admit I have not followed the 'other' thread (yawn).
>
> I have been trying to determine which of my two bikes is the faster. I
had equipped my P-38
> Voyager for touring and commuting And when the Giro showed up last
September, it was not long
> before it was similarly decked out in rack(s) fenders and headlights. It
seemed that each bike
> managed to pull about equal time commuting and on Saturdays riding point
for the DFs with my
> usual Saturday ride gang.
>
> Before adding fenders, rack(s) kickstands and the like, the Giro out
weighed the Voyager by
> about 6 lbs. I had an opportunity to get some nice wheels built with
velocity rims and Chris
> King Hubs. A thought these might make an improvement in the Giro,
especially if I mounted
> something lighter than the OEM Kenda Kwest Well, the Chris King Hub did
not fit inside the
> Giro fork, so it ended up on the Voyager.
>
> Well, with both bikes similarly equipped, there did not seem to be much
apparent difference on
> my Saturday 'go-fast' rides. My Saturday rides with the 'gang' started
out as a 30 mile loop
> in the city center of Houston. Even with Stop lights, I can easily manage
a 16mph average. And
> now I have extended the loop to get in a decent 55 mile ride.
>
> A few weeks back, I opted to turn the Voyager into a speedster until I
have to turn it back
> into a touring bike. So, I removed the rear rack and fenders and mounted
a pair of Schwalbe
> Stelvios. (The Giro runs Vredestein S-Licks). The first Saturday in April
I put the Giro
> through the usual rund for 59 miles and managed a 16.58 mph average. Last
Saturday under what
> might have been more favorable wind conditions, I took the Voyager through
the same loop and
> with a slightly different end leg managed 57.3 miles and a 16.6 mph
average.
>
> I'm still looking for a definitive answer. I may have to take both bikes
to the velodrome.
>
> Any comments?
>
>
> --
>
> Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
> - Bellaire, TX USA -

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Since you ride in a flat windy area you may want to add the Zzipper fairing that Lightning sells
> to your Voyager. http://www.lightningbikes.com/accessor.htm#ZZIPPER%20FAIRING Should give you at
> least a 1 mph speed boost.

My Lightning Voyager is a F-40 (the fully faired version of the P-38) It has a Nosecone and until
recently had a lycra full fairing cover.

Experiments with the nosecone alone added no measurable speed boost.

At this point, I am trying to compare 'apples to apples'

Working on the fairing for the Lightning is another project.

--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
- Bellaire, TX USA -

> Because of the recession I have felt that it is a politically incorrect sign of bourgeous
> conspicuous consumption (plus my wife complains about it!) to own 2 bents-- in addition to 2
> DF's. I am vacillating between selling, or keeping, my RANS V2. My other bent is a P-38.
>

I too had a very similar dilemma with my wife. She [mistakenly] believed I owned too many bikes. I
couldn't understand what she was talking about. I only own four, two bents (SWB and C/LWB) and two
uprights (road bike and MTB). I couldn't figure out which bike I was willing to give up. So the way
I solved this crisis was to trade in her old 10-year-old clunker car and buy her a brand new car.
Then I explain that the cost of my entire bike stable total doesn't come anywhere close to what I
just spent on her new car. She loves the car hasn't mentioned anything since about my bikes. Heck I
bet I can even get away with buying another bike (hummmmm now do I want a tandem (?), or maybe a
trike(?), or a highracer, or a lowracer(?),....).

BTW, I think buying bikes is a good way and perfectly politically correct way to help the country
{and much of the world for that matter} get over the recession. At least that kind of thinking
works for me!

Brian V-Rex/Tailwind

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> I too had a very similar dilemma with my wife. She [mistakenly] believed I owned too many bikes. I
> couldn't understand what she was talking about. I only own four, two bents (SWB and C/LWB) and two
> uprights (road bike and MTB). I couldn't figure out which bike I was willing to give up. So the
> way I solved this crisis was to trade in her ...

You could have stopped there and pointed this out to your wife as another option.

I on the other hand am limited to the number of bikes that will fit into the garage along side
_her_ car.

--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
- Bellaire, TX USA -

Cletus Lee <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> > I too had a very similar dilemma with my wife. She [mistakenly] believed I owned too many bikes.
> > I couldn't understand what she was talking about. I only own four, two bents (SWB and C/LWB) and
> > two uprights (road bike and MTB). I couldn't figure out which bike I was willing to give up. So
> > the way I solved this crisis was to trade in her ...
>
> You could have stopped there and pointed this out to your wife as another option.
>

Dang, now you tell me. Why didn't I think of that? Just think of all the money I would haved saved
by not buying her a new car! With that extra money I could have bought a brand new.....wait a
second, I would have to subtract alimony....oh nevermind.

Hey all,

When you figger out which one is faster, sell me the other one for about $800.

Bobby

Cletus Lee wrote:

> I must admit I have not followed the 'other' thread (yawn).
>
> I have been trying to determine which of my two bikes is the faster. I had equipped my P-38
> Voyager for touring and commuting And when the Giro showed up last September, it was not long
> before it was similarly decked out in rack(s) fenders and headlights. It seemed that each bike
> managed to pull about equal time commuting and on Saturdays riding point for the DFs with my usual
> Saturday ride gang.
>
> Before adding fenders, rack(s) kickstands and the like, the Giro out weighed the Voyager by about
> 6 lbs. I had an opportunity to get some nice wheels built with velocity rims and Chris King Hubs.
> A thought these might make an improvement in the Giro, especially if I mounted something lighter
> than the OEM Kenda Kwest Well, the Chris King Hub did not fit inside the Giro fork, so it ended up
> on the Voyager.
>
> Well, with both bikes similarly equipped, there did not seem to be much apparent difference on my
> Saturday 'go-fast' rides. My Saturday rides with the 'gang' started out as a 30 mile loop in the
> city center of Houston. Even with Stop lights, I can easily manage a 16mph average. And now I have
> extended the loop to get in a decent 55 mile ride.
>
> A few weeks back, I opted to turn the Voyager into a speedster until I have to turn it back into a
> touring bike. So, I removed the rear rack and fenders and mounted a pair of Schwalbe Stelvios.
> (The Giro runs Vredestein S-Licks). The first Saturday in April I put the Giro through the usual
> rund for 59 miles and managed a 16.58 mph average. Last Saturday under what might have been more
> favorable wind conditions, I took the Voyager through the same loop and with a slightly different
> end leg managed 57.3 miles and a 16.6 mph average.
>
> I'm still looking for a definitive answer. I may have to take both bikes to the velodrome.
>
> Any comments?
>
> --
>
> Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
> - Bellaire, TX USA -

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Hey all,
>
> When you figger out which one is faster, sell me the other one for about $800.
>
In your dreams...

I have no reason to part with either.

--
Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
- Bellaire, TX USA -

Cletus Lee wrote:
> ... I on the other hand am limited to the number of bikes that will fit into the garage along side
> _her_ car.

I store/have stored my HPVs in the bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, etc., but never in a garage or shed.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side) RANS "Wavewind" and Rocket, Earth Cycles Sunset and
Dragonflyer, Sidewalker Micro, Trek 6000, B.O.B. Yak

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> Cletus Lee wrote:
> > ... I on the other hand am limited to the number of bikes that will fit into the garage along
> > side _her_ car.
>
> I store/have stored my HPVs in the bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, etc., but never in a garage
> or shed.

IIRC Tom, you are still single.

--
Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
- Bellaire, TX USA -

Cletus D. Lee <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> > Hey all,
> >
> > When you figger out which one is faster, sell me the other one for about $800.
> >
> In your dreams...
>
> I have no reason to part with either.

Cletus, I hope you don't mind me asking, but why did you part with your LWB and replace it with a
second SWB? In my simple mind it makes more sense to have one of each type.

Brian V-Rex/Tailwind

P.S. I'll give you $850

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> Cletus, I hope you don't mind me asking, but why did you part with your LWB and replace it with a
> second SWB? In my simple mind it makes more sense to have one of each type.
>
At 10,000 miles the Stratus was 'getting long of tooth'. I was needing to replace a lot of
components, brakes, derailleurs, rear wheel and the paint was getting a little shabby and I was
going to have to paint the frame if I wanted the bike to not start to do some major rusting.

By the time I factored the costs of these maintenance items, it was not too far off the price of a
new Bacchetta Giro. As far as I can tell there is no advantage in having a LWB. Especially if you
are comfortable riding a SWB. With my first recumbent, I found the SWB to be a little too 'twitchy'
in handling. After a year of LWB riding, I knew how to handle a recumbent and realized the 'twitchy'
handling was PIO.

I decided to devote the Voyager to speed and occassional tours that involve flying and make the Giro
my Everyday go to work/tour bike. Unfortunately, I have found the Giro to be every it as fast as the
Voyager. Hence my delima
--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
- Bellaire, TX USA -

"Cletus D. Lee" wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> >
> > Cletus Lee wrote:
> > > ... I on the other hand am limited to the number of bikes that will fit into the garage along
> > > side _her_ car.
> >
> > I store/have stored my HPVs in the bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, etc., but never in a garage
> > or shed.
>
> IIRC Tom, you are still single.

Cletus,

Start storing your bikes in the house - maybe then you will be single also.

Tom Sherman - Various HPV's Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

Is one more comfortable than the other?

"Cletus Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> I decided to devote the Voyager to speed and occassional tours that
involve flying and make the
> Giro my Everyday go to work/tour bike. Unfortunately, I have found the
Giro to be every it as
> fast as the Voyager. Hence my delima
> --
>
> Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
> - Bellaire, TX USA -

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Is one more comfortable than the other?

The seat on the Voyager has a bar across the top that hits me at the base of the neck. I padded it
with pipe insulation which helps. The seat pad on the Voyager was replaced early with a ThermaRest
Statium seat. Since those two 'corrections' I do not have any problems with the Voyager. I did get
R-butt on a century with it last July.

I do not find one or the other more or less comfortable. The Voyager seat took some 'getting used
to'. The Giro "Bacchetta" seat did not.

--
Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
- Bellaire, TX USA -

Hello Cletus,

I'm thinkin' your dilemma may have more to do with the "engine" than the transmission. Why else
would an R-40 beat a lighter, higher BB P-38 up a hill? Since you're the same rider on both bikes,
perhaps the differences in cycle design are dwarfed by the conditioning of the rider and the routine
of commuting. I've found that I often don't use 100% of my muscles during a long ride, settling for
a 16 MPH average or so...then within 5 miles of the house I find I still have enough left for a few
25 MPH windsprints (second-wind-sprints?). It just seems to me that we tend to settle into a
comfortable level of exertion for long rides. Also, in the flat Houston terrain you're not likely to
pay that 6 pound weight penalty. Perhaps if you and a friend (of similar size and conditioning)
squared-off for some freindly competition, switching mounts every so often, you'd find out for real
which bike is faster. Too bad I'm now on the other side of Texas.

BTW, yes I'm still single, and yes my R-40 "sleeps" next to my bed. Too much dust in the garage.

Bill Anton Vision R-40 SWB OSS Lubbock, TX

Cletus D. Lee <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> > Is one more comfortable than the other?
>
> The seat on the Voyager has a bar across the top that hits me at the base of the neck. I padded it
> with pipe insulation which helps. The seat pad on the Voyager was replaced early with a ThermaRest
> Statium seat. Since those two 'corrections' I do not have any problems with the Voyager. I did get
> R-butt on a century with it last July.
>
> I do not find one or the other more or less comfortable. The Voyager seat took some 'getting used
> to'. The Giro "Bacchetta" seat did not.