Breaking Spokes

Roger Zoul

This is my bike:

http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkMod...d=5863&JServSe-
ssionIdroot=0mdo1uybug.j27008

which I bought last September. I had about 200 miles on it
until April 17, now I have almost 800 miles. I've been
riding a fair amount recently.

My bike has these wheels:

"Rolf design 700c twin spoke design high performance
wheel set"

I don't know anything about Rolf but I'm getting a notion
that they are somehow designed for speed

I weigh 235 to 240 lbs.

Last Tuesday, after riding 30 miles, I popped a spoke on the
rear wheel and it got out of true. I got it fixed on
Wednesday at the LBS. I did another 30 miles on Thursday, no
problems, but the route was fairly easy in terms of hills.
Today, while on a ride at about 25 miles out, I popped
another spoke on the rear wheel on a route similar to the
first one, but longer. I ended up walking home. The LBS
fixed it and trued the wheel again. The folks over
in .misc think that these spokes ought not to be popping and
that I should have the wheel rebuilt (I don't know what
that means yet).

The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up
hills in too high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress
on the rear wheel. I generally ride up hills (there are a
goodly amount of hills here in upstate SC - Greenville)
according to cadance, trying to keep it at or above 60. I do
end up shifting down as I go up the hill, as it's sometimes
hard to know what gear i really need to be in (I find hills
deceptive -- some look really hard but turn out to be easy
while others look easy but turn out to be hard -- what's up
with that?).

Any comments/advice/suggestion would be greatly appreciated.

Rick Warner

On Sat, 29 May 2004 18:00:52 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
<rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Last Tuesday, after riding 30 miles, I popped a spoke on
>the rear wheel and it got out of true. I got it fixed on
>Wednesday at the LBS. I did another 30 miles on Thursday,
>no problems, but the route was fairly easy in terms of
>hills. Today, while on a ride at about 25 miles out, I
>popped another spoke on the rear wheel on a route similar
>to the first one, but longer. I ended up walking home. The
>LBS fixed it and trued the wheel again. The folks over
>in .misc think that these spokes ought not to be popping
> and that I should have the wheel rebuilt (I don't know
> what that means yet).

I will be even more radical. Those wheels are good for show,
and for lighter riders. But they are a pain from several
aspects. If it were me, I would get a good set of custom
built wheels, with sufficient spokes and strength to handle
you and your riding style. Actually, it was me. The Rolfs
are in the storage area, and the custom made wheels (Open
Pro rims, Ultegra hubs) are on the bike.

>The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride
>up hills in too high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of
>stress on the rear wheel. I generally ride up hills (there
>are a goodly amount of hills here in upstate SC -
>Greenville) according to cadance, trying to keep it at or
>above 60. I do end up shifting down as I go up the hill, as
>it's sometimes hard to know what gear i really need to be
>in (I find hills deceptive -- some look really hard but
>turn out to be easy while others look easy but turn out to
>be hard -- what's up with that?).

Poppycock. The problem is the wheel, not your riding style.
I ride a fair amount, and a lot of it is in the hills (6000-
8000 miles/year, 400K-500K ft of climbing). When climbing
you should be shifting so that you can turn a good cadence
and keeping your HR under control, not because it is better
for your wheels. If your riding style is the problem (which
I do not believe) then wheels that fit your riding style are
the solution; match the equipment to you, not you to the
equipment.

- rick

Dianne_1234

On Sat, 29 May 2004 18:00:52 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
<rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote:

>This is my bike: http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkModel.jsp-
>?spid=5863&JServSessionIdroot=0mdo1uybug.j27008

Nice bike!

>My bike has these wheels: "Rolf design 700c twin spoke
>design high performance wheel set"

Only the paired spoke design is Rolf's, and that's really
over a century old. This design detail has nothing to do
with your wheel breaking spokes.

>I weigh 235 to 240 lbs.

A little on the heavy side for a wheel with only 28 spokes,
but still not a cause for spokes to break.

> The folks over
>in .misc think that these spokes ought not to be popping

I agree.

> and that I should have the wheel rebuilt

This shouldn't be necessary to stop spokes breaking if the
spokes are a reasonable fit in the hub holes. More below.

> (I don't know what that means yet).

A rebuild is replacing the spokes, and the rim if it's
damaged, and re-tensioning the wheel.

>The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride
>up hills in too high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of
>stress on the rear wheel.

Clearly, she doesn't know why spokes break. You should be
able to pedal as hard as you like and not break any spokes
by doing so.

>Any comments/advice/suggestion would be greatly
>appreciated.

Unless there is some material flaw or dimensional anomaly in
your wheels, here's a sure fix to prevent broken spokes:

1. Measure the spoke elbow. If it's 6.5mm or less, the
spokes are a good fit in almost any hub's holes. If 7.0mm
or more, have them replaced.[1] Dimension E is what
you're measuring, shown here:
<http://www.cnspoke.com/products/measure.htm>

2. Replace any broken spokes.

3. Adjust hop, wobble, tension and dish. Aim for about 100
kg average tension on the right side spokes. Lube nipples
and spoke threads as needed. The shop can easily do this.

** And here's the secret ingredient to preventing broken
spokes: **
4. Stress relieve the wheel.[2] Basically, squeeze sets of
four spokes in your hands. Go around the wheel repeating
until every spoke has been momentarily over-tensioned
like this.

Many shop mechanic wheel builders squeeze spokes like this,
but few squeeze hard enough or know that this relieves
stress in the spokes and prevents broken spokes. The harder
the squeeze, the better the resistance to spoke breakage.

How hard?
- Wear padded leather gloves. It'll hurt your bare hands
otherwise.
- Squeeze hard to try and break any spokes that might be
about to break. Squeeze really hard. I dare you to break
a spoke! :-)

5. Readjust hop, wobble, tension and dish as above.

[6] More details on elbow length here:
<http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/DTspokes.htm>

[7] More details on stress relieving spokes here:
<http://yarchive.net/bike/stress_relieve.html

Craig Young

Only one more thing to add - at 235 to 240 pounds, a 24/28
spoke wheel pair is probably too few. But, it is probably
cheaper to rebuild and stress relieve the wheels than to buy
new ones, so I would try that first. If you can remember,
did you hear any pinging noises coming from your wheels when
the bike was brand new? That is a telltale sign of an
improperly stress-releived wheel, and indicates spokes
seating and unwinding, the result of which is a wheel that
is at too low of tension.

Even experienced wheelbuilders fail to properly stress
revieve spokes - good advice from dianne..

dianne_1234 wrote:
> On Sat, 29 May 2004 18:00:52 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
> <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>This is my bike: http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkModel.js-
>>p?spid=5863&JServSessionIdroot=0mdo1uybug.j27008
>
>
> Nice bike!
>
>
>>My bike has these wheels: "Rolf design 700c twin spoke
>>design high performance wheel set"
>
>
> Only the paired spoke design is Rolf's, and that's really
> over a century old. This design detail has nothing to do
> with your wheel breaking spokes.
>
>
>>I weigh 235 to 240 lbs.
>
>
> A little on the heavy side for a wheel with only 28
> spokes, but still not a cause for spokes to break.
>
>
>>The folks over
>>in .misc think that these spokes ought not to be popping
>
>
> I agree.
>
>
>>and that I should have the wheel rebuilt
>
>
> This shouldn't be necessary to stop spokes breaking if the
> spokes are a reasonable fit in the hub holes. More below.
>
>
>>(I don't know what that means yet).
>
>
> A rebuild is replacing the spokes, and the rim if it's
> damaged, and re-tensioning the wheel.
>
>
>>The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride
>>up hills in too high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of
>>stress on the rear wheel.
>
>
> Clearly, she doesn't know why spokes break. You should be
> able to pedal as hard as you like and not break any spokes
> by doing so.
>
>
>>Any comments/advice/suggestion would be greatly
>>appreciated.
>
>
> Unless there is some material flaw or dimensional
> anomaly in your wheels, here's a sure fix to prevent
> broken spokes:
>
> 1. Measure the spoke elbow. If it's 6.5mm or less, the
> spokes are a good fit in almost any hub's holes. If
> 7.0mm or more, have them replaced.[1] Dimension E is
> what you're measuring, shown here:
> <http://www.cnspoke.com/products/measure.htm>
>
> 2. Replace any broken spokes.
>
> 3. Adjust hop, wobble, tension and dish. Aim for about 100
> kg average tension on the right side spokes. Lube
> nipples and spoke threads as needed. The shop can
> easily do this.
>
> ** And here's the secret ingredient to preventing broken
> spokes: **
> 4. Stress relieve the wheel.[2] Basically, squeeze sets of
> four spokes in your hands. Go around the wheel
> repeating until every spoke has been momentarily over-
> tensioned like this.
>
> Many shop mechanic wheel builders squeeze spokes like
> this, but few squeeze hard enough or know that this
> relieves stress in the spokes and prevents broken spokes.
> The harder the squeeze, the better the resistance to spoke
> breakage.
>
> How hard?
> - Wear padded leather gloves. It'll hurt your bare hands
> otherwise.
> - Squeeze hard to try and break any spokes that might be
> about to break. Squeeze really hard. I dare you to
> break a spoke! :-)
>
> 5. Readjust hop, wobble, tension and dish as above.
>
> [1] More details on elbow length here:
> <http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/DTspokes.htm>
>
> [2] More details on stress relieving spokes here:
> <http://yarchive.net/bike/stress_relieve.html>

Jim Beam

i second all this from dianne, but add one thing: the
quality of the spoke is very important. no amount of "stress
relief" can compensate for poor material quality or
production practice by the spoke's manufacturer. stick to a
known brand. d.t. have the majority of the
u.s. custom build market - they make a good reliable spoke.
sapim have the majority of the european peloton and are
courageous enough to publish fatigue tables for their
products. choose your poison accordingly.

dianne_1234 wrote:
> On Sat, 29 May 2004 18:00:52 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
> <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>This is my bike: http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkModel.js-
>>p?spid=5863&JServSessionIdroot=0mdo1uybug.j27008
>
>
> Nice bike!
>
>
>>My bike has these wheels: "Rolf design 700c twin spoke
>>design high performance wheel set"
>
>
> Only the paired spoke design is Rolf's, and that's really
> over a century old. This design detail has nothing to do
> with your wheel breaking spokes.
>
>
>>I weigh 235 to 240 lbs.
>
>
> A little on the heavy side for a wheel with only 28
> spokes, but still not a cause for spokes to break.
>
>
>>The folks over
>>in .misc think that these spokes ought not to be popping
>
>
> I agree.
>
>
>>and that I should have the wheel rebuilt
>
>
> This shouldn't be necessary to stop spokes breaking if the
> spokes are a reasonable fit in the hub holes. More below.
>
>
>>(I don't know what that means yet).
>
>
> A rebuild is replacing the spokes, and the rim if it's
> damaged, and re-tensioning the wheel.
>
>
>>The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride
>>up hills in too high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of
>>stress on the rear wheel.
>
>
> Clearly, she doesn't know why spokes break. You should be
> able to pedal as hard as you like and not break any spokes
> by doing so.
>
>
>>Any comments/advice/suggestion would be greatly
>>appreciated.
>
>
> Unless there is some material flaw or dimensional
> anomaly in your wheels, here's a sure fix to prevent
> broken spokes:
>
> 1. Measure the spoke elbow. If it's 6.5mm or less, the
> spokes are a good fit in almost any hub's holes. If
> 7.0mm or more, have them replaced.[1] Dimension E is
> what you're measuring, shown here:
> <http://www.cnspoke.com/products/measure.htm>
>
> 2. Replace any broken spokes.
>
> 3. Adjust hop, wobble, tension and dish. Aim for about 100
> kg average tension on the right side spokes. Lube
> nipples and spoke threads as needed. The shop can
> easily do this.
>
> ** And here's the secret ingredient to preventing broken
> spokes: **
> 4. Stress relieve the wheel.[2] Basically, squeeze sets of
> four spokes in your hands. Go around the wheel
> repeating until every spoke has been momentarily over-
> tensioned like this.
>
> Many shop mechanic wheel builders squeeze spokes like
> this, but few squeeze hard enough or know that this
> relieves stress in the spokes and prevents broken spokes.
> The harder the squeeze, the better the resistance to spoke
> breakage.
>
> How hard?
> - Wear padded leather gloves. It'll hurt your bare hands
> otherwise.
> - Squeeze hard to try and break any spokes that might be
> about to break. Squeeze really hard. I dare you to
> break a spoke! :-)
>
> 5. Readjust hop, wobble, tension and dish as above.
>
> [1] More details on elbow length here:
> <http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/DTspokes.htm>
>
> [2] More details on stress relieving spokes here:
> <http://yarchive.net/bike/stress_relieve.html>

Jobst Brandt

Roger Zoul writes:

> This is my bike:

http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkMod...d=5863&JServSe-
ssionIdroot=0mdo1uybug.j27008

I take it you meant:

http://tinyurl.com/2lo5v

> which I bought last September. I had about 200 miles on it
> until April 17, now I have almost 800 miles. I've been
> riding a fair amount recently.

> My bike has these wheels:

> "Rolf design 700c twin spoke design high performance
> wheel set"

> I don't know anything about Rolf but I'm getting a notion
> that they are somehow designed for speed.

Not really. They are designed to make you think of speed,
the difference being only measurable with a stop watch at
maximum effort. They aren't lighter nor are they pleasant to
ride in winds.

> I weigh 235 to 240 lbs.

Work on that.

> Last Tuesday, after riding 30 miles, I popped a spoke on
> the rear wheel and it got out of true. I got it fixed on
> Wednesday at the LBS. I did another 30 miles on Thursday,
> no problems, but the route was fairly easy in terms of
> hills. Today, while on a ride at about 25 miles out, I
> popped another spoke on the rear wheel on a route similar
> to the first one, but longer. I ended up walking home. The
> LBS fixed it and trued the wheel again. The folks over in
> .misc think that these spokes ought not to be popping and
> that I should have the wheel rebuilt (I don't know what
> that means yet).

> The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride
> up hills in too high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of
> stress on the rear wheel. I generally ride up hills (there
> are a goodly amount of hills here in upstate SC -
> Greenville) according to cadence, trying to keep it at or
> above 60.

The guy doesn't understand bicycles. The torque in a rear
wheel is independent of gear ratio for any given speed in
the flat and is smoother with lower peaks for hill climbing
in big gears (low cadence). Therefore, he is making this up
as a cover for his poor wheel building. I suspect he doesn't
understand stress relieving spokes after building a wheel.

> I do end up shifting down as I go up the hill, as it's
> sometimes hard to know what gear I really need to be in (I
> find hills deceptive -- some look really hard but turn out
> to be easy while others look easy but turn out to be hard
> -- what's up with that?).

I think you are confusing the effects of short hills with
long ones, or ones that you approach rested or already near
your limit. RR under- or over-passes are steep hills but
insignificant as climbs. All that has nothing to do with
the reliability of your wheels. Just the same, low spoke
count wheels are not as durable as conventional 36 spoke
road wheels.

Jobst Brandt jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

Anonymous

"Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:10bi1voe7bn10ba@corp.supernews.com...
> This is my bike:
>
>
http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkMod...d=5863&JServSe-
ssionIdroot=0mdo1uybug.j27008
>
> which I bought last September. I had about 200 miles on it
> until April
17,
> now I have almost 800 miles. I've been riding a fair
> amount recently.
>
> My bike has these wheels:
>
> "Rolf design 700c twin spoke design high performance
> wheel set"
>
> I don't know anything about Rolf but I'm getting a notion
> that they are somehow designed for speed
>
> I weigh 235 to 240 lbs.
>
> Last Tuesday, after riding 30 miles, I popped a spoke on
> the rear wheel
and
> it got out of true. I got it fixed on Wednesday at the
> LBS. I did
another
> 30 miles on Thursday, no problems, but the route was
> fairly easy in terms
of
> hills. Today, while on a ride at about 25 miles out, I
> popped another
spoke
> on the rear wheel on a route similar to the first one, but
> longer. I
ended
> up walking home. The LBS fixed it and trued the wheel
> again. The folks
over
> in .misc think that these spokes ought not to be popping
> and that I should have the wheel rebuilt (I don't know
> what that means yet).
>
> The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride
> up hills in too high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of
> stress on the rear wheel. I generally ride up hills (there
> are a goodly amount of hills here in
upstate
> SC - Greenville) according to cadance, trying to keep it
> at or above 60.
I
> do end up shifting down as I go up the hill, as it's
> sometimes hard to
know
> what gear i really need to be in (I find hills deceptive
> -- some look
really
> hard but turn out to be easy while others look easy but
> turn out to be hard -- what's up with that?).
>
> Any comments/advice/suggestion would be greatly
> appreciated.

I have had lots of problems with breaking rear wheel spokes.
My advice is to look at the Mavic Ksyrium Elite wheels. I
replied to another post earlier today with my results with
36 spoke hand built wheels. The summary is that I have had
horrible results with them but great results with the
Ksyrium Elites. It know that this goes completely against
the overall feelings of most of the vocal members of this
group but the Ksyrium Elite wheel has lasted more that three
times longer than any of the hand built wheels...and it had
made zero trips to the LBS to get trued. Before anyone says
that I just got a bad builder I had the wheel built at three
different places. Each time I spoke to the owner, or lead
tech, to explain my situation and asked that the wheel be
built by their best wheel builder.

Qui Si Parla Ca

roger-<< This is my bike:

http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkMod...d=5863&JServSe-
ssionIdroot=0md o1uybug.j27008 >><BR><BR> << I had about 200
miles on it until April 17, now I have almost 800 miles.
I've been riding a fair amount recently.
>><BR><BR>
<< My bike has these wheels: "Rolf design 700c twin spoke
design high performance wheel set" >><BR><BR> << I weigh 235
to 240 lbs. >><BR><BR> << Last Tuesday, after riding 30
miles, I popped a spoke on the rear wheel and it got out of
true. >><BR><BR>

<< The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride
up hills in too high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of
stress on the rear wheel. >><BR><BR>

The bike shop owner is clueless, particularly if she sold
you the bicycle. Go to her, in private, and tell her she
needs to have an appropriate for you wheelset built. Shimano
hubs onto a 36 hole rim, built well. If she won't, ask for
your money back and go to a bike shop that has a clue. Also
call Specialized.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui Si Parla Ca

bobmc-<< It know that this goes completely against the
overall feelings of most of the vocal members of this group
but the Ksyrium Elite wheel has lasted more that three times
longer than any of the hand built wheels.. >><BR><BR>

Then ya still need a new wheelbuilder.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Roger Zoul

dianne_1234 wrote:
:: On Sat, 29 May 2004 18:00:52 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
:: <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote:
::
::: This is my bike:
:::
http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkMod...d=5863&JServSe-
ssionIdroot=0mdo1uybug.j27008
::
:: Nice bike!
::
::: My bike has these wheels: "Rolf design 700c twin spoke
::: design high performance wheel set"
::
:: Only the paired spoke design is Rolf's, and that's really
:: over a century old. This design detail has nothing to do
:: with your wheel breaking spokes.
::
::: I weigh 235 to 240 lbs.
::
:: A little on the heavy side for a wheel with only 28
:: spokes, but still not a cause for spokes to break.
::
::: The folks over
::: in .misc think that these spokes ought not to be popping
::
:: I agree.
::
::: and that I should have the wheel rebuilt
::
:: This shouldn't be necessary to stop spokes breaking
:: if the spokes are a reasonable fit in the hub holes.
:: More below.
::
::: (I don't know what that means yet).
::
:: A rebuild is replacing the spokes, and the rim if it's
:: damaged, and re-tensioning the wheel.
::
::: The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I
::: ride up hills in too high a gear, and doing so puts a
::: lot of stress on the rear wheel.
::
:: Clearly, she doesn't know why spokes break. You should be
:: able to pedal as hard as you like and not break any
:: spokes by doing so.

Thanks a lot for the helpful comments, Dianne. I'm still
working through all of it...I'm going to look into getting
the wheels rebuilt and then I'll likely go to a new wheel
set, either selling the Rolf's or storing them. I just
feel a lack of confidence in riding long distances with
such a great possibility of wheel failure and having to
"limp" home.

::
::: Any comments/advice/suggestion would be greatly
::: appreciated.
::
:: Unless there is some material flaw or dimensional anomaly
:: in your wheels, here's a sure fix to prevent broken
:: spokes:
::
:: 1. Measure the spoke elbow. If it's 6.5mm or less, the
:: spokes are a good fit in almost any hub's holes. If
:: 7.0mm or more, have them replaced.[1] Dimension E is
:: what you're measuring, shown here:
:: <http://www.cnspoke.com/products/measure.htm>
::
:: 2. Replace any broken spokes.
::
:: 3. Adjust hop, wobble, tension and dish. Aim for about
:: 100 kg average tension on the right side spokes. Lube
:: nipples and spoke threads as needed. The shop can
:: easily do this.
::
:: ** And here's the secret ingredient to preventing broken
:: spokes: **
:: 4. Stress relieve the wheel.[2] Basically, squeeze sets
:: of four spokes in your hands. Go around the wheel
:: repeating until every spoke has been momentarily over-
:: tensioned like this.
::
:: Many shop mechanic wheel builders squeeze spokes like
:: this, but few squeeze hard enough or know that this
:: relieves stress in the spokes and prevents broken spokes.
:: The harder the squeeze, the better the resistance to
:: spoke breakage.
::
:: How hard?
:: - Wear padded leather gloves. It'll hurt your bare hands
:: otherwise.
:: - Squeeze hard to try and break any spokes that might be
:: about to break. Squeeze really hard. I dare you to
:: break a spoke! :-)
::
:: 5. Readjust hop, wobble, tension and dish as above.
::
:: [1] More details on elbow length here:
:: <http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/DTspokes.htm>
::
:: [2] More details on stress relieving spokes here:
:: <http://yarchive.net/bike/stress_relieve.html

Roger Zoul

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
:: roger-<< This is my bike:
::
::
http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkMod...d=5863&JServSe-
ssionIdroot=0md
:: o1uybug.j27008 >><BR><BR> << I had about 200 miles on it
:: until April 17, now I have almost 800 miles. I've been
:: riding a fair amount recently.
:::: <BR><BR>
:: << My bike has these wheels: "Rolf design 700c twin spoke
:: design high performance wheel set"
:: >><BR><BR> << I weigh 235 to 240 lbs. >><BR><BR>
:: << Last Tuesday, after riding 30 miles, I popped a spoke
:: on the rear wheel and it got out of true. >><BR><BR>
::
::
:: << The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I
:: ride up hills in too high a gear, and doing so puts a lot
:: of stress on the rear wheel. >><BR><BR>
::
:: The bike shop owner is clueless, particularly if she sold
:: you the bicycle. Go to her, in private, and tell her she
:: needs to have an appropriate for you wheelset built.
:: Shimano hubs onto a 36 hole rim, built well. If she
:: won't, ask for your money back and go to a bike shop that
:: has a clue. Also call Specialized.

That's a really good idea, Peter, thanks.

Roger Zoul

Rick Warner wrote:
:: On Sat, 29 May 2004 18:00:52 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
:: <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote:
::
::
::: Last Tuesday, after riding 30 miles, I popped a spoke on
::: the rear wheel and it got out of true. I got it fixed on
::: Wednesday at the LBS. I did another 30 miles on
::: Thursday, no problems, but the route was fairly easy in
::: terms of hills. Today, while on a ride at about 25 miles
::: out, I popped another spoke on the rear wheel on a route
::: similar to the first one, but longer. I ended up walking
::: home. The LBS fixed it and trued the wheel again. The
::: folks over
::: in .misc think that these spokes ought not to be popping
::: and that I should have the wheel rebuilt (I don't
::: know what that means yet).
::
:: I will be even more radical. Those wheels are good for
:: show, and for lighter riders. But they are a pain from
:: several aspects. If it were me, I would get a good set of
:: custom built wheels, with sufficient spokes and strength
:: to handle you and your riding style. Actually, it was me.
:: The Rolfs are in the storage area, and the custom made
:: wheels (Open Pro rims, Ultegra hubs) are on the bike.

What about this Peter White guy? He offers lifetime if you
go with what he suggests...I want this problem to go away...

::
::: The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I
::: ride up hills in too high a gear, and doing so puts a
::: lot of stress on the rear wheel. I generally ride up
::: hills (there are a goodly amount of hills here in
::: upstate SC - Greenville) according to cadance, trying to
::: keep it at or above 60. I do end up shifting down as I
::: go up the hill, as it's sometimes hard to know what gear
::: i really need to be in (I find hills deceptive -- some
::: look really hard but turn out to be easy while others
::: look easy but turn out to be hard -- what's up with
::: that?).
::
:: Poppycock. The problem is the wheel, not your riding
:: style. I ride a fair amount, and a lot of it is in the
:: hills (6000-8000 miles/year, 400K-500K ft of climbing).
:: When climbing you should be shifting so that you can turn
:: a good cadence and keeping your HR under control, not
:: because it is better for your wheels. If your riding
:: style is the problem (which I do not believe) then wheels
:: that fit your riding style are the solution; match the
:: equipment to you, not you to the equipment.

I agree 100%. The suggestion that I always shift to granny
gear on any hill to protect my wheels is nuts, imo.

Roger Zoul

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

::
::: I don't know anything about Rolf but I'm getting a
::: notion that they are somehow designed for speed.
::
:: Not really. They are designed to make you think of speed,
:: the difference being only measurable with a stop watch at
:: maximum effort. They aren't lighter nor are they pleasant
:: to ride in winds.

Why would they not be pleasant to ride in winds? Is there
some design feature?.

::
::: I weigh 235 to 240 lbs.
::
:: Work on that.

Absolutely...

::
::: Last Tuesday, after riding 30 miles, I popped a spoke on
::: the rear wheel and it got out of true. I got it fixed on
::: Wednesday at the LBS. I did another 30 miles on
::: Thursday, no problems, but the route was fairly easy in
::: terms of hills. Today, while on a ride at about 25 miles
::: out, I popped another spoke on the rear wheel on a route
::: similar to the first one, but longer. I ended up walking
::: home. The LBS fixed it and trued the wheel again. The
::: folks over in .misc think that these spokes ought not to
::: be popping and that I should have the wheel rebuilt (I
::: don't know what that means yet).
::
::: The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I
::: ride up hills in too high a gear, and doing so puts a
::: lot of stress on the rear wheel. I generally ride up
::: hills (there are a goodly amount of hills here in
::: upstate SC - Greenville) according to cadence, trying to
::: keep it at or above 60.
::
:: The guy doesn't understand bicycles. The torque in a rear
:: wheel is independent of gear ratio for any given speed in
:: the flat and is smoother with lower peaks for hill
:: climbing in big gears (low cadence). Therefore, he is
:: making this up as a cover for his poor wheel building. I
:: suspect he doesn't understand stress relieving spokes
:: after building a wheel.

Likely...

::
::: I do end up shifting down as I go up the hill, as it's
::: sometimes hard to know what gear I really need to be in
::: (I find hills deceptive -- some look really hard but
::: turn out to be easy while others look easy but turn out
::: to be hard -- what's up with that?).
::
:: I think you are confusing the effects of short hills with
:: long ones,

No doubt...it's usually the long ones that look fearful but
are easier and the short ones that look hard but are
relatively hard.

:: or ones that you approach rested or already near
:: your limit.

Yes, you are correct, I think.

RR
:: under- or over-passes are steep hills but insignificant
:: as climbs. All that has nothing to do with the
:: reliability of your wheels. Just the same, low spoke
:: count wheels are not as durable as conventional 36 spoke
:: road wheels.

Noted.

Roger Zoul

RWM wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote in message
:: news:10bi1voe7bn10ba@corp.supernews.com...
::: This is my bike:
:::
:::
::
http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkMod...d=5863&JServSe-
ssionIdroot=0mdo1uybug.j27008
:::
::: which I bought last September. I had about 200 miles on
::: it until April
:: 17,
::: now I have almost 800 miles. I've been riding a fair
::: amount recently.
:::
::: My bike has these wheels:
:::
::: "Rolf design 700c twin spoke design high performance
::: wheel set"
:::
::: I don't know anything about Rolf but I'm getting a
::: notion that they are somehow designed for speed
:::
::: I weigh 235 to 240 lbs.
:::
::: Last Tuesday, after riding 30 miles, I popped a spoke on
::: the rear wheel
:: and
::: it got out of true. I got it fixed on Wednesday at the
::: LBS. I did
:: another
::: 30 miles on Thursday, no problems, but the route was
::: fairly easy in terms
:: of
::: hills. Today, while on a ride at about 25 miles out, I
::: popped another
:: spoke
::: on the rear wheel on a route similar to the first one,
::: but longer. I
:: ended
::: up walking home. The LBS fixed it and trued the wheel
::: again. The folks
:: over
::: in .misc think that these spokes ought not to be popping
::: and that I should have the wheel rebuilt (I don't
::: know what that means yet).
:::
::: The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I
::: ride up hills in too high a gear, and doing so puts a
::: lot of stress on the rear wheel. I generally ride up
::: hills (there are a goodly amount of hills here in
:: upstate
::: SC - Greenville) according to cadance, trying to keep it
::: at or above 60.
:: I
::: do end up shifting down as I go up the hill, as it's
::: sometimes hard to
:: know
::: what gear i really need to be in (I find hills deceptive
::: -- some look
:: really
::: hard but turn out to be easy while others look easy but
::: turn out to be hard -- what's up with that?).
:::
::: Any comments/advice/suggestion would be greatly
::: appreciated.
::
:: I have had lots of problems with breaking rear wheel
:: spokes. My advice is to look at the Mavic Ksyrium Elite
:: wheels. I replied to another post earlier today with my
:: results with 36 spoke hand built wheels. The summary is
:: that I have had horrible results with them but great
:: results with the Ksyrium Elites. It know that this goes
:: completely against the overall feelings of most of the
:: vocal members of this group but the Ksyrium Elite wheel
:: has lasted more that three times longer than any of the
:: hand built wheels...and it had made zero trips to the LBS
:: to get trued. Before anyone says that I just got a bad
:: builder I had the wheel built at three different places.
:: Each time I spoke to the owner, or lead tech, to explain
:: my situation and asked that the wheel be built by their
:: best wheel builder.

Did your handbuilt wheel come with a lifetime guarantee?
That guy Peter White offers such if you go with his
suggestions. I'd rather not have to keep working through
various solutions on wheels to arrive at one that finally
works. I need this problem to go away so I can devote my
attention to riding and trying to improve.