Holy shatz! Cop stops bicycle!

Daniel J. Stern

*Reposted, this time to correct groups*

(Prefatory note to Brent: Yes, I'm aware there are many badly-
behaved motorists. No, I don't think they should get off scot-
free, either. Yes, I'm aware you're vehemently opposed to
bicycle and rider registration. No, I don't buy your
putative reasons for it. Yes, I know you have to respond to
this post. No, I won't get in a pissing contest with you.)

I was walking down Bloor St when I saw a copcycle pull over
a cyclist for running a red light...talk about shock and
awe! I've never seen the likes of this before. The cop
ordered the cyclist to dismount, walk his bike to the corner
and park it, then lectured the guy for a few minutes ("Red
lights mean STOP, whether you're in a car or on a bike or on
your feet! It's the same rules of the road for you as for
everyone else who uses it!"). The guy was arguing that he
bicycles in this area all the time, there were no cars
coming, etc. The cop (surprise...) told the guy he was just
warning him this time rather than writing a ticket, and
eventually let him ride off.

Now, it did my heart a lot of good to see and hear this.
There are way too many badly-behaved bicyclists in Toronto,
as there are in every other city. "Hey, lookit me! I'm a
car! WHUP, now I'm a pedestrian! WHUP! Now I'm neither! Hey,
lookit me riding on the wrong side of the street! After
dark! Without lights or reflectors! Wearing all black! And
if you hit me, it'll be all your fault, neener neener
neener! Whoah, sucks to be you, red lights are only for
cars!" etc.

I'd like to see a lot more of this kind of police activity,
but pragmatic questions pretty much scotch the idea. There's
no law requiring registration of bicycles or carrying an
operator's license -- or, for that matter, any form of
identification at all -- while riding one. Should be, but
isn't. So what if the cop stops someone who hasn't got ID?
What, exactly, can the cop do? And even if s/he succeeds in
writing a ticket, what's to motivate the recipient to pay
it? There'll be no demerit points on his driver's license
(which s/he may not even have). There'll be no increase in
insurance premiums (which s/he's not required to carry).
There'll be no denial of renewed registration (also not
required).

Be nice if cops could/would (they probably can) write
tickets and impound bicycles until the ticket is paid.

-Stern (pedestrian/cyclist/driver)

Badger_south

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 00:11:20 -0400, "Daniel J. Stern" <dastern@127.0.0.1>
wrote:

>*Reposted, this time to correct groups*

>I was walking down Bloor St when I saw...

>Now, it did my heart a lot of good to see and hear this.
>There are way too many badly-behaved bicyclists in Toronto,
>as there are in every other city.
>
>Be nice if cops could/would (they probably can) write
>tickets and impound bicycles until the ticket is paid.
>
>-Stern (pedestrian/cyclist/driver)

I hear your momma was picked up on that same corner. Only,
not for bad biking behavior.

-B

Brent P

In article <Pine.GSO.4.58.0406120010490.8911@alumni.engin.umich.edu>, Daniel J. Stern wrote:

> I was walking down Bloor St when I saw a copcycle pull
> over a cyclist for running a red light...talk about shock
> and awe!

Quite different from my experience. I stop and the cop
runs the red.

> Now, it did my heart a lot of good to see and hear this.

The only times I've been stopped by a cop is when they
insisted I could not use the roadway but had to teeter on
the couple inches of pavement to the right on the while line
and left of the gravel.

> I'd like to see a lot more of this kind of police
> activity, but pragmatic questions pretty much scotch
> the idea.

I'd like to see for ALL vehicles.

> There's no law requiring registration of bicycles or
> carrying an operator's license -- or, for that matter, any
> form of identification at all -- while riding one.

This doesn't prevent a ticket from being written and
legally binding.

> Should be, but isn't. So what if the cop stops someone who
> hasn't got ID? What, exactly, can the cop do? And even if
> s/he succeeds in writing a ticket, what's to motivate the
> recipient to pay it? There'll be no demerit points on his
> driver's license (which s/he may not even have). There'll
> be no increase in insurance premiums (which s/he's not
> required to carry). There'll be no denial of renewed
> registration (also not required).

Because a warrant will be issued for his arrest. This will
turn up at a bad time like when he gets pulled over for
driving 70mph on an empty expressway at 2am.

> Be nice if cops could/would (they probably can) write
> tickets and impound bicycles until the ticket is paid.

Autos first. It would kill the speeding ticket industry. And
btw, cops are already known to do just that, cept it's with
anyone riding a bike within reach when there is some sort of
protest or convention going on.

The Lindbergh B

Daniel J. Stern wrote:
> *Reposted, this time to correct groups*
>
> (Prefatory note to Brent: Yes, I'm aware there are many
> badly-behaved motorists. No, I don't think they should get
> off scot-free, either. Yes, I'm aware you're vehemently
> opposed to bicycle and rider registration. No, I don't buy
> your putative reasons for it. Yes, I know you have to
> respond to this post. No, I won't get in a pissing contest
> with you.)
>
> I was walking down Bloor St when I saw a copcycle pull
> over a cyclist for running a red light...talk about shock
> and awe! I've never seen the likes of this before. The cop
> ordered the cyclist to dismount, walk his bike to the
> corner and park it, then lectured the guy for a few
> minutes ("Red lights mean STOP, whether you're in a car or
> on a bike or on your feet! It's the same rules of the road
> for you as for everyone else who uses it!"). The guy was
> arguing that he bicycles in this area all the time, there
> were no cars coming, etc. The cop (surprise...) told the
> guy he was just warning him this time rather than writing
> a ticket, and eventually let him ride off.

Okay, has anyone ever seen a cop let a driver off after they
ran a red light? Hmmmm??

Unless the driver was a politician or fellow cop, I doubt
it.

And I love the argument from the bicyclist: there were no
cars coming. How the frig does he know? Is he psychic?
There were no cars coming because he lived to tell about
it. Had there been cars coming, they'd be scraping him off
the street...

...And the gene pool would be 0.000000000000000001% better.

John

--
To reply, remove "die.spammers" from address

Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. --Beethoven

Bob Newman

Too many to read every reply, I hope this wasn't touched on.
We here in Florida have had police crack downs in the past
giving cyclists tickets for not stopping, as you say
"cyclists are subject to the same traffic laws as anyone
else". That is not quite true in this case, cyclists are
required to do more! Simply stopping at a stop sign can
still get you a ticket IF you fail to put one foot fully on
the ground. Comments?

Bob

"The Lindbergh Baby"
<johngrabowski1@die.spammersearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:40CACFCE.8030206@die.spammersearthlink.net...
> Daniel J. Stern wrote:
> > *Reposted, this time to correct groups*
> >
> > (Prefatory note to Brent: Yes, I'm aware there are many
> > badly-behaved motorists. No, I don't think they should
> > get off scot-free, either.
Yes,
> > I'm aware you're vehemently opposed to bicycle and rider
> > registration.
No,
> > I don't buy your putative reasons for it. Yes, I know
> > you have to
respond
> > to this post. No, I won't get in a pissing contest
> > with you.)
> >
> > I was walking down Bloor St when I saw a copcycle pull
> > over a cyclist
for
> > running a red light...talk about shock and awe! I've
> > never seen the
likes
> > of this before. The cop ordered the cyclist to dismount,
> > walk his bike
to
> > the corner and park it, then lectured the guy for a few
> > minutes ("Red lights mean STOP, whether you're in a car
> > or on a bike or on your feet! It's the same rules of the
> > road for you as for everyone else who uses it!"). The
> > guy was arguing that he bicycles in this area all the
> > time, there were no cars coming, etc. The cop
> > (surprise...) told the guy he
was
> > just warning him this time rather than writing a ticket,
> > and eventually let him ride off.
>
> Okay, has anyone ever seen a cop let a driver off after
> they ran a red light? Hmmmm??
>
> Unless the driver was a politician or fellow cop, I
> doubt it.
>
> And I love the argument from the bicyclist: there were no
> cars coming. How the frig does he know? Is he psychic?
> There were no cars coming because he lived to tell about
> it. Had there been cars coming, they'd be scraping him off
> the street...
>
> ...And the gene pool would be 0.000000000000000001%
> better.
>
>
>
> John
>
> --
> To reply, remove "die.spammers" from address
>
>
> Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. --Beethoven

Paul

"Daniel J. Stern" <dastern@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.58.0406120010490.8911@alumni.engin.umich.edu...

<article snipped>

> Be nice if cops could/would (they probably can) write
> tickets and impound bicycles until the ticket is paid.

AMEN to that. It would be espacially nice (for me anyways)
if they would do this to these idiot kids who have no clue
of and/or disregard the rules of the road.

--
Paul

John David Galt

Bob Newman wrote:
> Too many to read every reply, I hope this wasn't touched
> on. We here in Florida have had police crack downs in the
> past giving cyclists tickets for not stopping, as you say
> "cyclists are subject to the same traffic laws as anyone
> else". That is not quite true in this case, cyclists are
> required to do more! Simply stopping at a stop sign can
> still get you a ticket IF you fail to put one foot fully
> on the ground. Comments?

Sounds like the usual over-enforcement directed at auto
drivers, where the cop says you "didn't stop" if you didn't
wait 5 seconds before proceeding. The law needs to
recognize that when your car rocks back on its springs,
you've stopped.

<<<<<< ]] Gun_d

<snip>. The cop (surprise...) told the guy he was
> > just warning him this time rather than writing a ticket,
> > and eventually let him ride off.
>
> Okay, has anyone ever seen a cop let a driver off after
> they ran a red light? Hmmmm??
>
> Unless the driver was a politician or fellow cop, I
> doubt it.
</snip>

I'm neither and I've had warnings for that AND speeding
while driving a car.

<snip>
> And I love the argument from the bicyclist: there were no
> cars coming. How the frig does he know? </snip>

A cyclist can see further down the road than drivers in a
car coming to a stop. Also many states have provisions for
cyclists, if there is no traffic at the light the cyclist
can proceed due to the fact that bicycles may not trip the
sensor to make the light change.

Just as there are different rules for pedestrians, trucks,
busses, and motorcycles... There are different rules for
cyclists. Some need to be modified with the times but there
are differences.

Mike Baron

"<<<<<< ]] gun_dog99 [[ >>>>>>" wrote:

>
> stop. Also many states have provisions for cyclists, if
> there is no traffic at the light the cyclist can proceed
> due to the fact that bicycles may not trip the sensor to
> make the light change.

Applies to all vehicles. If a signal is not working
properly, one may proceed with caution. A vehicle not
tripping a sensor indicates a siognal not working properly.

Daniel J. Stern

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Bob Newman wrote:

> Florida have had police crack downs in the past giving
> cyclists tickets for not stopping, as you say "cyclists
> are subject to the same traffic laws as anyone else". That
> is not quite true in this case, cyclists are required to
> do more! Simply stopping at a stop sign can still get you
> a ticket IF you fail to put one foot fully on the ground.
> Comments?

That seems silly and pecksnifian. For a well-balanced rider
and bicycle, It's perfectly possible to come to the kind of
complete and adequate stop that a stop sign requires without
putting a foot fully on the ground.

-Stern

Daniel J. Stern

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, The Lindbergh Baby wrote:

> > it!"). The guy was arguing that he bicycles in this area
> > all the time, there were no cars coming, etc. The cop
> > (surprise...) told the guy he was just warning him this
> > time rather than writing a ticket, and eventually let
> > him ride off.
>
> Okay, has anyone ever seen a cop let a driver off after
> they ran a red light? Hmmmm?? Unless the driver was a
> politician or fellow cop, I doubt it.

Hence my "(surprise...)".

> And I love the argument from the bicyclist: there were no
> cars coming. How the frig does he know?

He just, y'know, *knows!* Shut up, he does too! Does too
does too does TOO!

(In fact, Bloor street is busy 24 hours a day. There are
*ALWAYS* cars coming from three directions at the particular
intersection this guy blew.)

-Stern

Daniel T.

In article <x8Byc.7010$Di3.952@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Bob Newman" <bobnewman@att.net> wrote:

>Too many to read every reply, I hope this wasn't touched
>on. We here in Florida have had police crack downs in the
>past giving cyclists tickets for not stopping, as you say
>"cyclists are subject to the same traffic laws as anyone
>else". That is not quite true in this case, cyclists are
>required to do more! Simply stopping at a stop sign can
>still get you a ticket IF you fail to put one foot fully on
>the ground. Comments?

I think it's the same for mortorcycles, so I wouldn't say
the cyclist is required to do more in this case.

Daniel T.

In article <Pine.GSO.4.58.0406120010490.8911@alumni.engin.umich.edu>,
"Daniel J. Stern" <dastern@127.0.0.1> wrote:

>*Reposted, this time to correct groups*
>
>(Prefatory note to Brent: Yes, I'm aware there are many badly-
>behaved motorists. No, I don't think they should get off
>scot-free, either. Yes, I'm aware you're vehemently opposed
>to bicycle and rider registration. No, I don't buy your
>putative reasons for it. Yes, I know you have to respond to
>this post. No, I won't get in a pissing contest with you.)
>
>I was walking down Bloor St when I saw a copcycle pull over
>a cyclist for running a red light...talk about shock and
>awe! I've never seen the likes of this before. The cop
>ordered the cyclist to dismount, walk his bike to the
>corner and park it, then lectured the guy for a few minutes
>("Red lights mean STOP, whether you're in a car or on a
>bike or on your feet! It's the same rules of the road for
>you as for everyone else who uses it!"). The guy was
>arguing that he bicycles in this area all the time, there
>were no cars coming, etc. The cop (surprise...) told the
>guy he was just warning him this time rather than writing a
>ticket, and eventually let him ride off.
>
>Now, it did my heart a lot of good to see and hear this.
>There are way too many badly-behaved bicyclists in Toronto,
>as there are in every other city. "Hey, lookit me! I'm a
>car! WHUP, now I'm a pedestrian! WHUP! Now I'm neither!
>Hey, lookit me riding on the wrong side of the street!
>After dark! Without lights or reflectors! Wearing all
>black! And if you hit me, it'll be all your fault, neener
>neener neener! Whoah, sucks to be you, red lights are only
>for cars!" etc.

You sound upset because the bicyclest is allowed to do
things an automobile driver is not allowed to do. When you
see him take advantage of his greater freedom it upsets you.
You want auto drivers to have that freedom to, or see it
taken away from the bicyclest...

I'm new to this car vs bicycle debate, yet is sounds very
familliar to the debate over in rec.boats; there it's motor-
boat vs sailboat. Different vehicles, but the same facts.
How much property damage can a bicycle do compaired to a
car? Can DUI bicyclests ram through the wall of the local
McDonald's killing and injuring happy meal eaters? Isn't
it true that a bicycle is inherently safer to opperate
than a car? If not for the opperator, then certanly for
everyone else?

>I'd like to see a lot more of this kind of police activity,
>but pragmatic questions pretty much scotch the idea.
>There's no law requiring registration of bicycles or
>carrying an operator's license -- or, for that matter, any
>form of identification at all -- while riding one. Should
>be, but isn't. So what if the cop stops someone who hasn't
>got ID? What, exactly, can the cop do? And even if s/he
>succeeds in writing a ticket, what's to motivate the
>recipient to pay it? There'll be no demerit points on his
>driver's license (which s/he may not even have). There'll
>be no increase in insurance premiums (which s/he's not
>required to carry). There'll be no denial of renewed
>registration (also not required).
>
>Be nice if cops could/would (they probably can) write
>tickets and impound bicycles until the ticket is paid.

Here you claim that the rules that bicyclest must obey are
"unenforceable" because there is no license to revoke,
insurance premium to jack up or points to accrue. However,
there are many laws that people are expected to obey that
fit the same profile; shoplifting for example. A shopper
isn't required to carry a "shopping license" and won't have
any insurance problems or get any points if he is caught
stealing a loaf of bread.

I'm not saying that bicyclests shouldn't be licensed, but I
am saying that nothing you present here is a case for why
they should.

Daniel J. Stern

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Daniel T. wrote:

> >"Hey, lookit me! I'm a car! WHUP, now I'm a pedestrian!
> >WHUP! Now I'm neither! Hey, lookit me riding on the wrong
> >side of the street! After dark! Without lights or
> >reflectors! Wearing all black! And if you hit me, it'll
> >be all your fault, neener neener neener! Whoah, sucks to
> >be you, red lights are only for cars!" etc.
>
> You sound upset because the bicyclest is allowed to do
> things an automobile driver is not allowed to do

No, see, that's just it: Bicyclists *AREN'T* allowed to do
things (like run red lights) that cars aren't allowed to do.
The guy who inspired my original post got ordered off his
bike and lectured by a cop; sounded like next time the same
cop sees him do the same thing, it'll be a ticket.

> I'm new to this car vs bicycle debate

That much is obvious. Such a "car vs. bicycle debate" is
pointless. Roadway safety is EVERY road user's job, whether
they be on foot, on a bike, on rollerblades, in a car, on a
motorcycle...

> How much property damage can a bicycle do compaired
> to a car?

"Compared". Quite a bit, depending on how you define
"cause". When a bicyclist touches-off a multi-vehicle
incident, the total tab in injuries and damages can be
quite large.

> Can DUI bicyclests ram through the wall of the local
> McDonald's killing and injuring happy meal eaters?

They can ram through busy intersections against the light,
causing multiple collisions as drivers attempt to avoid
hitting them. Different venue, same effect.

> Isn't it true that a bicycle is inherently safer to
> opperate than a car?

Probably not.

> you claim that the rules that bicyclest must obey are
> "unenforceable" because there is no license to revoke,
> insurance premium to jack up or points to accrue.

That's right.

-Stern