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29-06.-2004, 01:31 AM
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#1 |
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Guest
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Slight Play in Suspension Fork
When I do a "loose headset test" with my bike by locking the
front brake, bearing down on the bars, and trying to roll the bike fore-and-aft I get the typical slight movement and "clunking" feel that you get with headset cones that have come a little loose. However, both headset and hubs appear to be adjusted fine. Instead, the movement seems to be inside my 2002 Manitou Six Super fork. A couple months ago – when this problem was slightly evident but not as bad as it is now – I checked the oil level and it was okay according to the manual. Apart from the above the fork basically appears to work fine – cycles smoothly, etc. I really don't want to suffer the several weeks of down time and significant financial expense that will be the consequence of taking it to my LBS for a rebuild unless I know this is something that I can't address myself. (The LBS has already hinted that they would send it off to Answer to have any fork work done. Lord knows how long it would take to come back.) I'm a competent amateur bike mechanic but have no experience with fork internals. Advice on next steps? Thanks! - Tony |
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29-06.-2004, 01:46 AM
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#2 |
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Guest
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Re: Slight Play in Suspension Fork
most suspension forks have a small amount of play, even when
new. it's nothing to worry about - it comes from the slide bushings - if they're too snug, the fork doesn't "float" very well. Tony Scilipoti wrote: > When I do a "loose headset test" with my bike by locking > the front brake, bearing down on the bars, and trying to > roll the bike fore-and-aft I get the typical slight > movement and "clunking" feel that you get with headset > cones that have come a little loose. However, both > headset and hubs appear to be adjusted fine. Instead, the > movement seems to be inside my 2002 Manitou Six Super > fork. A couple months ago – when this problem was > slightly evident but not as bad as it is now – I checked > the oil level and it was okay according to the manual. > Apart from the above the fork basically appears to work > fine – cycles smoothly, etc. > > I really don't want to suffer the several weeks of down > time and significant financial expense that will be the > consequence of taking it to my LBS for a rebuild unless I > know this is something that I can't address myself. (The > LBS has already hinted that they would send it off to > Answer to have any fork work done. Lord knows how long it > would take to come back.) I'm a competent amateur bike > mechanic but have no experience with fork internals. > Advice on next steps? > > Thanks! > - Tony |
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29-06.-2004, 03:31 AM
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#3 |
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Re: Slight Play in Suspension Fork
jim beam wrote:
> most suspension forks have a small amount of play, even > when new. it's nothing to worry about - it comes from the > slide bushings - if they're too snug, the fork doesn't > "float" very well. If you mean gentle play, then yes. If you mean click-click play where there's a definite stop when rocking it, then no. OP specified clunking, which shouldn't occur. No suspension forks (except for walgooses) should have clicking play. Be sure that you check your brakes (especially discs) to make sure it's not the pad moving in the caliper or the v-brake arms moving on the brake bosses. -- Phil, Squid-in-Training |
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29-06.-2004, 03:45 AM
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#4 |
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Re: Slight Play in Suspension Fork
Tony Scilipoti wrote:
> When I do a "loose headset test" with my bike by locking > the front brake, bearing down on the bars, and trying to > roll the bike fore-and-aft I get the typical slight > movement and "clunking" feel that you get with headset > cones that have come a little loose. The technique I use is to grab the steerer between the headtube and the stem (basically holding the top cup/race cover) and rocking the bike. Play should be evident at that point. -- Phil, Squid-in-Training |
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30-06.-2004, 04:30 AM
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#5 |
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Re: Slight Play in Suspension Fork
jim beam <uce@ftc.gov> wrote in message news:<uQXDc.78979$135.73937@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>...
> most suspension forks have a small amount of play, even > when new. it's nothing to worry about - it comes from the > slide bushings - if they're too snug, the fork doesn't > "float" very well. My concern is that increasing play is developing, well over and above the nearly unnoticable amount that was present when the fork was new. I don't believe (, Phil,) that the pads are moving in the calipers, but I will re-check that. Let's say that there really is a slight "clunking" play in the fork. What are my next steps for diagnosis and fix? Thanks. - Tony |
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30-06.-2004, 07:01 AM
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#6 |
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Guest
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Re: Slight Play in Suspension Fork
assuming you've taken care of the obvious - the head set,
the best way is to operate the brake, then rock the bike back & forth with a finger on the relevant part to be sure of where it's coming from. in probability, it's the headset, and that's easily fixable. if it is the fork, and the fork's not badly messed up, chances are it's "ok". a small amount of play doesn't affect steering or braking or suspension, so it's a survivable situation. if after checking the fork & headset, the fork is not acceptable, send it back for rebuild. it's a judgement call on whether it's enough to worry about. fork sliders /can/ wear, and if so, they can be replaced, but it's usually a serious rebuild job. the chances are that unless you've been riding the bike with blown seals & serious oil contamination, the fork will be within tolerance. Tony Scilipoti wrote: > jim beam <uce@ftc.gov> wrote in message news:<uQXDc.78979- > $135.73937@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>... > >>most suspension forks have a small amount of play, even >>when new. it's nothing to worry about - it comes from the >>slide bushings - if they're too snug, the fork doesn't >>"float" very well. > > > My concern is that increasing play is developing, well > over and above the nearly unnoticable amount that was > present when the fork was new. I don't believe (, Phil,) > that the pads are moving in the calipers, but I will re- > check that. > > Let's say that there really is a slight "clunking" play in > the fork. What are my next steps for diagnosis and fix? > > Thanks. > - Tony |
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30-06.-2004, 07:46 AM
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#7 |
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Re: Slight Play in Suspension Fork
"Tony Scilipoti" <tscilipoti@att.net> wrote in message
news:c04cfda6.0406291110.51695a29@posting.google.com... > jim beam <uce@ftc.gov> wrote in message news:<uQXDc.78979$135.73937@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>... > > most suspension forks have a small amount of play, even > > when new. it's nothing to worry about - it comes from > > the slide bushings - if they're too snug, the fork > > doesn't "float" very well. > > My concern is that increasing play is developing, well > over and above the nearly unnoticable amount that was > present when the fork was new. I don't believe (, Phil,) > that the pads are moving in the calipers, but I will re- > check that. > > Let's say that there really is a slight "clunking" play in > the fork. What are my next steps for diagnosis and fix? > > Thanks. > - Tony I had the same happen with my Rock Shox SID forks - the tefel coating on the bushings had worn - they were replaced and rebuilt and are as good as new - recommend it. K. |
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30-06.-2004, 10:30 AM
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#8 |
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Guest
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Re: Slight Play in Suspension Fork
jim beam wrote:
> assuming you've taken care of the obvious - the head set, > the best way is to operate the brake, then rock the bike > back & forth with a finger on the relevant part to be sure > of where it's coming from. in Another method is to raise the front end in the air and hold the rear brake. Turn the handlebars so that the front wheel is parallel to the ground and torque the handlebars around an axis parallel to the ground. This eliminates the brake movement and fork play problem and focuses on the stem, handlebar, and most importantly, the headset. -- Phil, Squid-in-Training |
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01-07.-2004, 12:00 AM
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#9 |
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Guest
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Re: Slight Play in Suspension Fork
tscilipoti@att.net (Tony Scilipoti) wrote in message news:<c04cfda6.0406280820.74f966de@posting.google.com>...
> When I do a "loose headset test" with my bike by locking > the front brake, bearing down on the bars, and trying to > roll the bike fore-and-aft I get the typical slight > movement and "clunking" feel that you get with headset > cones that have come a little loose. However, both headset > and hubs appear to be adjusted fine. Instead, the movement > seems to be inside my 2002 Manitou Six Super fork. Thanks for the responses to my post. Several of them indicate that I was not sufficiently clear in my original post (above). IT'S NOT THE HEADSET. The problem is definitely in the fork. The question is, exactly what do I do to diagnose and fix the problem? "Do a rebuild" is not a sufficiently detailed answer for someone who has never worked on a fork. The manual from Manitou just says "return to Manitou" if you need work on the internals. So, for example, does anyone know of a good book, magazine article, or web page that would give me a headstart on this? Or is it one of those things, like the inside of your cell phone, that do-it-yourselfers just never tackle? Thanks. - Tony |
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01-07.-2004, 02:46 AM
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#10 |
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Re: Slight Play in Suspension Fork
ZeeExSixAre wrote:
> jim beam wrote: > >>assuming you've taken care of the obvious - the head set, >>the best way is to operate the brake, then rock the bike >>back & forth with a finger on the relevant part to be sure >>of where it's coming from. in > > > Another method is to raise the front end in the air and > hold the rear brake. Turn the handlebars so that the front > wheel is parallel to the ground and torque the handlebars > around an axis parallel to the ground. This eliminates the > brake movement and fork play problem and focuses on the > stem, handlebar, and most importantly, the headset. theoretically, that's good, but i've not always found that to be reliable in prcatice because some headsets [for whatever reason] can be loose in the straight-ahead position but progressively tighter as the wheel is turned. [/not/ indexing!] depends on the frame, but i had a problem like this on a bike with an integrated headset - could not easily be fixed because it could not easily be refaced. i find the rock & finger method more reliable because it's closer to actual use. |
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01-07.-2004, 07:25 AM
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#11 |
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Guest
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Re: Slight Play in Suspension Fork
there's no diagnosis prescribed for "acceptable" play in
forks because the chances of them being sufficiently out of spec to be a problem is practically zero. the best you can do is compare it to a new fork and make a subjective judgment. all suspension forks have some play. /if/ you then think the slider bearings are shot, and the chances are they're not, yes you can fix the fork yourself. but they require a chuffing great tool to get in & out. that tool is /way/ expensive. and even then, it's still a job that's easily messed up. and i doubt you're equipped or experienced to perform the checks the manufacturer would perform for fatigue or other problems. so, unless you want to dump the money into a tool that you'll probably never use again, and may not have a ready resale market for - i wouldn't buy it off you - and you're prepared to take your chances on there being no other problems with the fork, it's not worth doing it yourself. trust me on that one. i've refurbished forks before - all except the sliders, and frankly, it's a real pita. and i'm no mechanical neophyte either - i'll never let anyone else work on my cars for anything other than paint, alignment, wheel balancing & short block rebuilds, things i'm not prepared to buy the tools for. everything else i do myself. it's exactly the same situation here. some jobs /are/ best left to folks set up to do them. that's why your lbs won't deal with it either. if "return to manitou" is not what you want to hear, that's a shame. Tony Scilipoti wrote: > tscilipoti@att.net (Tony Scilipoti) wrote in message > news:<c04cfda6.0406280820.74f966de@posting.google.com>... > >>When I do a "loose headset test" with my bike by locking >>the front brake, bearing down on the bars, and trying to >>roll the bike fore-and-aft I get the typical slight >>movement and "clunking" feel that you get with headset >>cones that have come a little loose. However, both headset >>and hubs appear to be adjusted fine. Instead, the movement >>seems to be inside my 2002 Manitou Six Super fork. > > > Thanks for the responses to my post. Several of them > indicate that I was not sufficiently clear in my original > post (above). IT'S NOT THE HEADSET. The problem is > definitely in the fork. The question is, exactly what do > I do to diagnose and fix the problem? "Do a rebuild" is > not a sufficiently detailed answer for someone who has > never worked on a fork. The manual from Manitou just says > "return to Manitou" if you need work on the internals. > So, for example, does anyone know of a good book, > magazine article, or web page that would give me a > headstart on this? Or is it one of those things, like the > inside of your cell phone, that do-it-yourselfers just > never tackle? Thanks. > > - Tony |
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02-07.-2004, 01:15 AM
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#12 |
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Guest
Posts: n/a
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Re: Slight Play in Suspension Fork
In article <c04cfda6.0406291110.51695a29@posting.google.com>, Tony
Scilipoti <tscilipoti@att.net> wrote: > jim beam <uce@ftc.gov> wrote in message news:<uQXDc.78979- > $135.73937@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>... > > most suspension forks have a small amount of play, even > > when new. it's nothing to worry about - it comes from > > the slide bushings - if they're too snug, the fork > > doesn't "float" very well. > > My concern is that increasing play is developing, well > over and above the nearly unnoticable amount that was > present when the fork was new. I don't believe (, Phil,) > that the pads are moving in the calipers, but I will re- > check that. > > Let's say that there really is a slight "clunking" play in > the fork. What are my next steps for diagnosis and fix? > > Thanks. > - Tony If you have a bike stand, it would be easy to diagnosis whether you have a shot headset or a shot fork. Most likely your fork's bushings have been worned down -- this is especially the case with cheap and OEM forks. To see if the bushings are gone... Try this.. Ask a friend to help you lock up the front brakes while holding the bike from falling. You then grasp the fork's crown and then push it backward and then pulling it forward several times. If the bushings are good, there should be very very minimal play. If the bushings are gone, the play will be significant. To see if it is worth fixing.. It really depends the fork you have now -- good reputation or just OEM. I used to have an OEM Rockshox Judy 100 that developed both a significant bushing play, stiction and oil leakage. My mechanic simply told me to throw it into the garbage because it's not worth fixing anymore. With companies like Price Point, Jenson USA and Cambria Bikes selling last season's forks at great prices from time to time , you might as well just spend a bit more money and upgrade. I myself got a great deal at Cambria for a Fox Forx Vanilla and I never looked back. No play and is ultra stiff and super plush, which makes for very precise steering in tight switch backs, which my Judy lacked. Other forks like Black, Marzocchi MX Comp are good candidates for your replacement too. |
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02-07.-2004, 01:45 AM
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#13 |
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Guest
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Re: Slight Play in Suspension Fork
In article <c04cfda6.0406300653.7a08ff8e@posting.google.com>, Tony
Scilipoti <tscilipoti@att.net> wrote: > tscilipoti@att.net (Tony Scilipoti) wrote in message > news:<c04cfda6.0406280820.74f966de@posting.google.com>... > > When I do a "loose headset test" with my bike by locking > > the front brake, bearing down on the bars, and trying to > > roll the bike fore-and-aft I get the typical slight > > movement and "clunking" feel that you get with headset > > cones that have come a little loose. However, both > > headset and hubs appear to be adjusted fine. Instead, > > the movement seems to be inside my 2002 Manitou Six > > Super fork. > > Thanks for the responses to my post. Several of them > indicate that I was not sufficiently clear in my original > post (above). IT'S NOT THE HEADSET. The problem is > definitely in the fork. The question is, exactly what do > I do to diagnose and fix the problem? "Do a rebuild" is > not a sufficiently detailed answer for someone who has > never worked on a fork. The manual from Manitou just says > "return to Manitou" if you need work on the internals. > So, for example, does anyone know of a good book, > magazine article, or web page that would give me a > headstart on this? Or is it one of those things, like the > inside of your cell phone, that do-it-yourselfers just > never tackle? Thanks. > > - Tony Tony, There is no prescribed way to diagnose and fix a fork, except for the more high end forks. Cheap low end and OEM forks are simply to costly to fix so no bike shops are willing to do the repair or even stock the specialized tool to remove the bushings. Unless your Manitou is a Black, Skareb or Sherman, they will just bluntly tell you to send it yourself to the manufacturer. And even then, there's no guarantee of parts availability either. Most OEM forks are just not worth fixing, except for one rare case where my bike mechanic fixed a red Judy 100 for $240 (with extra bushings to make it a bit stiffer), because the lady wanted to keep, for GT i-drive, the white matching red fork color scheme. As for my Rockshox Judy 100, it took 2 months for RS to get back to my mechanic and they said, the bushings are $80 (pair for special mod to make the fork extra stiff) for each leg. Labour is another $80 in my town and then there's no guarantee other parts like the damper is going to be working long after the repair. Tally up the cost $240 for a repair. Crap.. I can buy a new Fox Forx Vanilla (last season), which itself is a very stiff fork, for $299, in which I did! Here's the problem. Cheap forks that came with mid-priced bikes are ok forks, which serves as a good place to start. But people tend to push the forks beyond their forks' limit anyhow, so eventually you will have to shop for a fork that can take the beating, way stiffer than OEM for great steering response on rocky downhill rides, and be tailored to your riding style. Most mid-end forks that can take some beating are the Manitou Blacks, Marzocchi MX Comps, Fox Forx Vanilla or Rockshox Dukes (not Psylo). They are way stiffer than any cheap stock OEM and I think the bushings last a bit longer.. By the way, almost all forks will have some slight bushing play. David. |
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