Downhill speeds...or: I must be getting old

Fred Hall

Please be gentle and no laughing...looking for inputs from
those more experienced...

Background: Just started seriously road riding this year on
a Trek 1500, after mostly trail (packed stone dust fairly
flat) riding on a Gary Fisher hybrid. Got the road bike
about 3 weeks ago and have been cruising around, a lot of
flat roads, but some minor climbs and descents.

Anyway, yesterday I figured I'd change up my route and take
a certain road I knew had a pretty good hill on it. Not
wanting to climb the hill, I made the route so it went down
the hill. Long story short, it's a pretty good hill and even
with a decent headwind according the the ol' computer I was
doing about 35 mph down the hill for a good three plus
minutes. Needless to say, the knuckles were white from
hanging on for dear life and all I could picture was having
a dog (or something) jump out at me, or getting a blow out,
and me going ass over teakettle down the hill. Of course, I
made it to the bottom with no incidents and went about the
rest of my ride.

Back when I was 11 or 12 I probably would have thought that
was really cool and would have been pedaling all the way to
see how much faster I could go...now that I'm 47 I worry
more about self preservation I guess. So my question is,
with more descents under my belt will 30+ mph downhills not
even phase me? Or will I be a wuss the rest of my biking
days? I know the pro racers are hitting what - 60 mph
sometimes (or more) - so I'm not even in that
league...watching the OLN special on Lance's 5 wins last
night they pointed out he averaged about 33 mph during his
time trials...which tells me he's flying at some points...

Thanks for listening (reading)

David Reuteler

Fred Hall <fhall1@twcny.rr.com> wrote:
> Back when I was 11 or 12 I probably would have thought
> that was really cool and would have been pedaling all the
> way to see how much faster I could go...now that I'm 47 I
> worry more about self preservation I guess. So my question
> is, with more descents under my belt will 30+ mph
> downhills not even phase me?

lord i'd think so. i did near 50mph on my ride yesterday for
about 5 minutes. it gets the blood going but i no longer
fear alpine cows ..

.. since a month ago i fear front blow outs. i had my first
one doing ~45mph into horseshoe bend, idaho and luckily was
able to stop pretty easily. i was laughing my ass off when i
came to a stop, tho ..

.. i was laughing my ass off because i was so happy not to
be smeared all over the road. my god that scared the shit
out of me.

> Or will I be a wuss the rest of my biking days?

practice, practice, practice.

> Thanks for listening (reading)

sure. nothing to worry about here.
--
david reuteler reuteler@visi.com

Hunrobe

>"Fred Hall" fhall1@twcny.rr.com

wrote in part:

>...now that I'm 47 I worry more about self preservation I
>guess. So my question is, with more descents under my belt
>will 30+ mph downhills not even phase me? Or will I be a
>wuss the rest of my biking days?

Some get accustomed to those speeds, others don't. The
only way to determine which of those groups you belong to-
I almost wrote "fall into" but I figured that would be a
poor choice of phrasing- is to keep riding the descents.
If you don't begin to feel more comfortable at the higher
speeds, stop.

Regards, Bob Hunt

P.S.- 30 mph on the flats is even more fun! :-)

Roger Zoul

Fred Hall wrote:
|| Please be gentle and no laughing...looking for inputs
|| from those more experienced...
||
|| Background: Just started seriously road riding this year
|| on a Trek 1500, after mostly trail (packed stone dust
|| fairly flat) riding on a Gary Fisher hybrid. Got the road
|| bike about 3 weeks ago and have been cruising around, a
|| lot of flat roads, but some minor climbs and descents.
||
|| Anyway, yesterday I figured I'd change up my route and
|| take a certain road I knew had a pretty good hill on it.
|| Not wanting to climb the hill, I made the route so it
|| went down the hill. Long story short, it's a pretty good
|| hill and even with a decent headwind according the the
|| ol' computer I was doing about 35 mph down the hill for a
|| good three plus minutes. Needless to say, the knuckles
|| were white from hanging on for dear life and all I could
|| picture was having a dog (or something) jump out at me,
|| or getting a blow out, and me going ass over teakettle
|| down the hill. Of course, I made it to the bottom with no
|| incidents and went about the rest of my ride.
||
|| Back when I was 11 or 12 I probably would have thought
|| that was really cool and would have been pedaling all the
|| way to see how much faster I could go...now that I'm 47 I
|| worry more about self preservation I guess. So my
|| question is, with more descents under my belt will 30+
|| mph downhills not even phase me? Or will I be a wuss the
|| rest of my biking days? I know the pro racers are hitting
|| what - 60 mph sometimes (or more) - so I'm not even in
|| that league...watching the OLN special on Lance's 5 wins
|| last night they pointed out he averaged about 33 mph
|| during his time trials...which tells me he's flying at
|| some points...

Hey -- this is supposed to be fun. You're not Lance and you
don't have to measure up to anyone's expectations. Hence.
slow down to where you feel comfortable, if that makes you
happy and keeps you riding. That's what I
do...and I'm 46. I don't believe too many people would call
me a wuss -- to my face at least (I'm a heavy rider too,
so downhill speeds freak me 'cause I get worried about
being able to stop). My focus is on building up to long
distances first, so speed is secondary (well, up to a
point, that
dp).

Enjoy riding.

Ps...I watch OLN and have exactly the same thoughts as you
However, I try to do my Lance imitation while
climbing hills, not doing down hills So next time go
up that hill!!!

Badger_south

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:44:35 GMT, "Fred Hall" <fhall1@twcny.rr.com> wrote:

>Please be gentle and no laughing...looking for inputs from
>those more experienced...
>
>Background: Just started seriously road riding this year on
>a Trek 1500, after mostly trail (packed stone dust fairly
>flat) riding on a Gary Fisher hybrid. Got the road bike
>about 3 weeks ago and have been cruising around, a lot of
>flat roads, but some minor climbs and descents.
>
>Anyway, yesterday I figured I'd change up my route and take
>a certain road I knew had a pretty good hill on it. Not
>wanting to climb the hill, I made the route so it went down
>the hill. Long story short, it's a pretty good hill and
>even with a decent headwind according the the ol' computer
>I was doing about 35 mph down the hill for a good three
>plus minutes. Needless to say, the knuckles were white from
>hanging on for dear life and all I could picture was having
>a dog (or something) jump out at me, or getting a blow out,
>and me going ass over teakettle down the hill. Of course, I
>made it to the bottom with no incidents and went about the
>rest of my ride.
>
>Back when I was 11 or 12 I probably would have thought that
>was really cool and would have been pedaling all the way to
>see how much faster I could go...now that I'm 47 I worry
>more about self preservation I guess. So my question is,
>with more descents under my belt will 30+ mph downhills not
>even phase me? Or will I be a wuss the rest of my biking
>days? I know the pro racers are hitting what - 60 mph
>sometimes (or more) - so I'm not even in that
>league...watching the OLN special on Lance's 5 wins last
>night they pointed out he averaged about 33 mph during his
>time trials...which tells me he's flying at some points...
>
>Thanks for listening (reading)

I think some of it is trusting the bike and some of it is
the bike itself. I'm going by memory here, heh, as well as
some of what I've read, b/c I don't do that kind of downhill
at this point, although I may get to that in a year.

I've read a couple messages, not sure where, and guys say
'...this bike is so stable, that downhills that I wouldn't
attempt are a breeze.' Others can chip in and give their
recent experiences, but it makes sense to me. I'd guess a
Trek 1500 would be a stable bike, but I don't know.

So I'm thinking as you do more of these, you'll get used to
it, and will learn to trust your bike. I'd suggest you re-
assure yourself by making sure the bike is tuned up and tire
pressure is good before making future 'max speed attempts'.
Another thought is have a friend ride with you who is used
to taking hills like this, and it seems like riding with
someone would also be re-assuring and enabling.

HTH,

-Badger

David Reuteler

Hunrobe <hunrobe@aol.com> wrote:
> Some get accustomed to those speeds, others don't. The
> only way to determine which of those groups you belong to-
> I almost wrote "fall into" but I figured that would be a
> poor choice of phrasing- is to keep riding the descents.
> If you don't begin to feel more comfortable at the higher
> speeds, stop.

it's not quite that simple. if you drag your brakes to keep
a speed you're comfortable with you run the risk of
overheating. that's only applicable on serious descents but
that's where the problem manifests itself most strongly
anyway and 30mph just ain't that fast on a descent.
--
david reuteler reuteler@visi.com

Kevin Furrow

"Fred Hall" <fhall1@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:7j0Ec.150584$j24.96347@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> Back when I was 11 or 12 I probably would have thought
> that was really
cool
> and would have been pedaling all the way to see how much
> faster I could go...now that I'm 47 I worry more about
> self preservation I guess. So my question is, with more
> descents under my belt will 30+ mph downhills not even
> phase me?

Security with high downhill speeds definitely comes with
experience, but there are ways to increase your security
more quickly.

1) You didn't say what position you were descending in --
i.e., in the drops, on the brake hoods, etc. I find that
being in the drops is the most secure position, since
your center of gravity is the lowest. It gets harder to
tip over! Your hands are also close to the brakes --
i.e., you can get a nice handfull of brakes if absolutely
necessary.

2) Being in the drops puts you in a more aerodynamic
position, but you can still "sit up" if you need to.
Speed is all about aerodynamics -- the more "aero" you
are, the faster you will go. The less aero you are, the
slower you'll go. And thus, what I call the "air
brake". Sit up, and you'll slow down. It gives you
multiple braking options -- using your brakes in a turn
is a really bad idea (your wheels can slide out), but
"air braking" is safe, and it can slow you down pretty
darn quick.

3) Cornerning technique becomes paramount as the speedometer
creeps upwards. Just like with driving -- paradoxically,
the faster you're going, the slower your movements
become. Nothing sudden. Think about "lengthening" a turn
-- the turn starts long before the road itself turns.
This is where watching the pros can really help -- watch
the path (i.e., the line) that they take through turns.
Watch how early they start turning -- they've
straightened the turn so much that they'll use the whole
road. Obviously you don't want to use the whole road, but
I've certainly used entire lanes.

Let your speed build up slowly. i.e., by changing your body
position, you can really alter your speed down any given
hill. Get comfortable descending it in one position, then
get a bit more tucked in and you'll go faster. Build up
your confidence again at your now faster speed. Repeat.
Keep in mind that everybody has a "freak out" point,
depending on the smoothness of the pavement, the tightness
of the turns, etc.

Enjoy the practice! Downhill is fun! Kevin

Gooserider

"Fred Hall" <fhall1@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:7j0Ec.150584$j24.96347@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> Please be gentle and no laughing...looking for inputs from
> those more experienced...
>
> Background: Just started seriously road riding this year
> on a Trek 1500, after mostly trail (packed stone dust
> fairly flat) riding on a Gary Fisher hybrid. Got the road
> bike about 3 weeks ago and have been cruising
around,
> a lot of flat roads, but some minor climbs and descents.

I'll tell you, a lot of it depends on the bike. I used to
ride an aluminum KHS that got twitchy during descents
above 30mph. It scared the crap out of me, even if I
leaned my knee against the top tube. I upgraded to a steel
Schwinn Peloton and it's a totally different beast. I've
seen 50mph and it's steady as a rock. Different geometry,
different ride. The KHS was full on racer geometry, while
the Schwinn is based on classic Paramount geometry, or so
I've been told.

Bill

If it was a paved road 35 should not have been all that
much. I used to come down highway 9 from Saratoga Summit to
the town of Saratoga in California at anywhere from 40 to 60
MPH but it was a good paved road and I was only a crazy 15
year old on a Peugot 10 speed with really high gears so I
could pedal fast. It was worth it just to see the looks on
the faces of the car drivers as I passed them on the left. I
probably would not do it again but the memory is a good one.
No potholes, just good blacktop and no funky switchbacks.
Just don't try 35 on a blind fire trail or you could get
some big surprises. Bill Baka

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:44:35 GMT, Fred Hall
<fhall1@twcny.rr.com> wrote:

> Please be gentle and no laughing...looking for inputs from
> those more experienced...
>
> Background: Just started seriously road riding this year
> on a Trek 1500, after mostly trail (packed stone dust
> fairly flat) riding on a Gary Fisher hybrid. Got the road
> bike about 3 weeks ago and have been cruising around, a
> lot of flat roads, but some minor climbs and descents.
>
> Anyway, yesterday I figured I'd change up my route and
> take a certain road I knew had a pretty good hill on it.
> Not wanting to climb the hill, I made the route so it went
> down the hill. Long story short, it's a pretty good hill
> and even with a decent headwind according the the ol'
> computer I was doing about 35 mph down the hill for a good
> three plus minutes. Needless to say, the knuckles were
> white from hanging on for dear life and all I could
> picture was having a dog (or something) jump out at me, or
> getting a blow out, and me going ass over teakettle down
> the hill. Of course, I made it to the bottom with no
> incidents and went about the rest of my ride.
>
> Back when I was 11 or 12 I probably would have thought
> that was really cool and would have been pedaling all the
> way to see how much faster I could go...now that I'm 47 I
> worry more about self preservation I guess. So my question
> is, with more descents under my belt will 30+ mph
> downhills not even phase me? Or will I be a wuss the rest
> of my biking days? I know the pro racers are hitting what
> - 60 mph sometimes (or more) - so I'm not even in that
> league...watching the OLN special on Lance's 5 wins last
> night they pointed out he averaged about 33 mph during his
> time trials...which tells me he's flying at some points...
>
> Thanks for listening (reading)
>
>

--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client:
http://www.opera.com/m2/

Denver C. Fox

I think that one portion of feeling comfortable going fast
downhill is growing up on a bike and having those
opportunities to get that comfort zone established.

I didn't really have those opportunities much, and I didn't
bike much at all for about 40 years.

So, at 64, I am not a fast downhiller, nor do I plan to be,
nor do I want to be.

The thought of a blowout at 50-60 mph, or hitting gravel, or
a squirrel running out in front sort of blows my mind.

So, I go at my own comfort zone speed, which sort of depends
upon conditions and how I am feeling at the moment.

Strangely, if I am on a steep descent and I then see that it
is going to level off, or better yet, go up hill, I will be
likely to let it go as fast as I can
- I may go over 40 mph in that circumstance. But if I see it
is going to continue and continue downhill, then I hold it
to 35 mph or less, and on a long downhill (like the 8
miles of sharp downhill into Steamboat Springs from Rabbit
Ears Pass) I will even stop, let things (and me) cool down
and then start again.

I guess at 64, caution (and perhaps slower reflexes) becomes
more important.

http://members.aol.com/foxcondorsrvtns (Colorado
rental condo)

http://members.aol.com/dnvrfox (Family Web Page)

Ben Kaufman

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:44:35 GMT, "Fred Hall" <fhall1@twcny.rr.com> wrote:

>Please be gentle and no laughing...looking for inputs from
>those more experienced...
>

You will probably get used to it, especially if it is
straight or with gentle bends, but go at a speed you feel
comfortable at. You're not racing and the faster you go the
greater the risk of a crash and of a worse injury. I also
drive a motorcycle and at 40+, I'm usually wearing leathers,
impact absorbing armor and a full face helmet so I
definitely feel "naked" whenever the speedo on the bicycle
goes over 30; especially since the only bad accident I've
ever had was on my bicycle (last year) at about 17mph -
broken collar and road rash.

Ben

Leo Lichtman

I will add a little to the excellent advice Kevin wrote. If
you are at the actual limit for the bike/road combination,
any slight error can cause you big trouble. Lacking
experience, as you say, you are not sure how near the limit
you are. So, this is a form of practice I would suggest:
ride at a speed which is fast enough to give you enjoyment,
but which you KNOW is perfectly safe. Then, without
increasing your speed, tighten your turn slightly, or
introduce a little weaving to your path, to see how you and
the bike react. If you explore your limit this way, you
always have an easy way to back off if you feel you have
gone too far. Just straighten the path again. Does this
make sense?

Dreaded

"Leo Lichtman" <l.lichtman@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:uQ3Ec.40108$OB3.6921@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> I will add a little to the excellent advice Kevin wrote.
> If you are at
the
> actual limit for the bike/road combination, any slight
> error can cause you big trouble. Lacking experience, as
> you say, you are not sure how near
the
> limit you are. So, this is a form of practice I would
> suggest: ride at a speed which is fast enough to give you
> enjoyment, but which you KNOW is perfectly safe. Then,
> without increasing your speed, tighten your turn
> slightly, or introduce a little weaving to your path, to
> see how you and
the
> bike react. If you explore your limit this way, you always
> have an easy
way
> to back off if you feel you have gone too far. Just
> straighten the path again. Does this make sense?
>
>

I agree and also if you need more stopability on the street
try shifting back a little while in the drop position. this
may reduce the risk of a tumble if the front tire blows or
if you hit a pothole while braking. my commute includes a
35+ descent in the city (if the traffic is fast enough!) on
a bumpy street. i also try to memorize the road surface
since i ride there most days.

Jobst Brandt

Fred Hall writes:

> Background: Just started seriously road riding this year
> on a Trek 1500, after mostly trail (packed stone dust
> fairly flat) riding on a Gary Fisher hybrid. Got the road
> bike about 3 weeks ago and have been cruising around, a
> lot of flat roads, but some minor climbs and descents.

> Anyway, yesterday I figured I'd change up my route and
> take a certain road I knew had a pretty good hill on it.
> Not wanting to climb the hill, I made the route so it went
> down the hill. Long story short, it's a pretty good hill
> and even with a decent headwind according the the ol'
> computer I was doing about 35 mph down the hill for a good
> three plus minutes. Needless to say, the knuckles were
> white from hanging on for dear life and all I could
> picture was having a dog (or something) jump out at me, or
> getting a blow out, and me going ass over teakettle down
> the hill. Of course, I made it to the bottom with no
> incidents and went about the rest of my ride.

Don't descend any faster than you feel is safe. Pressing top
speed descents is a good way to get hurt, badly. Most fast
descenders I know, including myself, took a lot of spills
when young and rebounding. I don't recommend trying to do
that after age 25 or so. Some people can do it but learning
a new mother tongue like a native is easier than riding
close to the limit of traction, something that is necessary
to descend fast.

How it is done is analytical, but the rider must be sure of
the limits:

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/9.15.html

Jobst Brandt jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org