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15-04.-2004, 02:01 PM
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#1 |
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Guest
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No keyed washer on headset
A friend just bought an early 90's custom Italian frame. Overall nice, and I am cleaning it up, servicing all the bearings, making adjustments, etc. for her. Just opened up the headset (1" threaded) and find there is no keyed washer. Further, the fork has no slot cut to accept a keyed washer. Hmmm. How does/will this work? Any precautions I should take to keep the headset from loosening? - rick |
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15-04.-2004, 02:18 PM
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#2 |
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Re: No keyed washer on headset
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 05:01:07 GMT, Rick Warner
<rickwarner@NOTVALIDearthlink.net> may have said: > >A friend just bought an early 90's custom Italian frame. Overall >nice, and I am cleaning it up, servicing all the bearings, making >adjustments, etc. for her. Just opened up the headset (1" threaded) >and find there is no keyed washer. Further, the fork has no slot >cut to accept a keyed washer. Hmmm. How does/will this >work? Any precautions I should take to keep the headset from >loosening? It's been in use for 10 years that way. This is a big hint. Snug the locknut a bit more than normal, and it should work just fine. -- My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature. Words processed in a facility that contains nuts. |
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15-04.-2004, 09:44 PM
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#3 |
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Re: No keyed washer on headset
rick-<< Overall
nice, and I am cleaning it up, servicing all the bearings, making adjustments, etc. for her. Just opened up the headset (1" threaded) and find there is no keyed washer. Further, the fork has no slot cut to accept a keyed washer. >><BR><BR> We file the notch off these washers as they tend to rotate and screw up fork threads. Not needed when ya use proper technique and tools to tighten/adjust a HS. Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302 (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene" |
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16-04.-2004, 09:49 AM
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#4 |
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Re: No keyed washer on headset
Rick Warner wrote:
> A friend just bought an early 90's custom Italian frame. Overall > nice, and I am cleaning it up, servicing all the bearings, making > adjustments, etc. for her. Just opened up the headset (1" threaded) > and find there is no keyed washer. Further, the fork has no slot > cut to accept a keyed washer. Hmmm. How does/will this > work? Any precautions I should take to keep the headset from > loosening? If you've oiled or greased the threads, the top adjusting race and the locknut will jam together nicely with no tab washer. There is no drawback to running a headset without a tab washer. Relax. If you prefer a tab washer for any reason, cut a squared-section keyway in your fork with a riffler (curved) file -but no deeper than absolutely necessary to clear the tab. Personally I wouldn't bother. But if you do it, don't overdo it. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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18-04.-2004, 12:00 AM
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#5 |
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Re: No keyed washer on headset
First of all, the keyed washer is not a lockwasher. It's to keep the cup
from turning when you tighten the lockNUT. If you have two spanners, one for the cup, one for the locknut, it is not necessary. Which most cyclists who do their own repairs, all shops and professional team mechanics have. An un-keyed washer will work fine. If your headset is properly tightened down, it won't loosen up. - - "May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills!" Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman" Chris'Z Corner http://www.geocities.com/czcorner |
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18-04.-2004, 12:11 AM
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#6 |
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Re: No keyed washer on headset
Thanks all for the comments on the washer. I can live without a key, just was curious that this never had one. I have cleaned the frame, coated inside of tubes with framesaver and starting to put it back together. The headset had bearings in retainers top and bottom, 20 x 5/32". Not quite sure of the year or model of headset, but the bike is early 90's and the components all look to be Campy Athena so I assume that the headset it likely from the gruppo (anyway to confirm?). Anyway, the headset does not seem to fit correctly with those retainer bearings; as tight as I can wrench it it still seems to need to be tightened a bit more. I suspect that at least the lower race had larger bearings (3/16" ?) originally. Anyone know? Any way to find out? Thanks, - rick |
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18-04.-2004, 02:53 AM
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#7 |
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Re: No keyed washer on headset
Chris Zacho writes:
> First of all, the keyed washer is not a lockwasher. It's to keep the > cup from turning when you tighten the lockNUT. > If you have two spanners, one for the cup, one for the locknut, it > is not necessary. Which most cyclists who do their own repairs, all > shops and professional team mechanics have. > An un-keyed washer will work fine. If your headset is properly > tightened down, it won't loosen up. I have taken the washer out if there was enough threads in the nut or filed the tab off to prevent thread damage. The tab washer is a poor idea and does not work as imagined by its inventor. What is less apparent in many instances, is that the "lock nut" is the principal load bearer and not just a locking device. The bearing cup, that has plenty of threads in it that do not directly bear the load, while the lock nut with only a few threads, takes the brunt of any impact load of the bearing. The steer tube is not such a bad one but wheel bearing lock nuts are much worse off, with only a thread and a half, they are mostly unloaded when the QR is tightened. I don't think bicycle parts designers give these concepts any thought. These are the hidden snags that cause problems in, for instance,a the recent disc brake discussion. Jobst Brandt jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org |
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19-04.-2004, 01:19 PM
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#8 |
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Re: No keyed washer on headset
Rick Warner wrote:
> Thanks all for the comments on the washer. I can live without a key, > just was curious that this never had one. > > I have cleaned the frame, coated inside of tubes with framesaver > and starting to put it back together. The headset had bearings in > retainers top and bottom, 20 x 5/32". Not quite sure of the year > or model of headset, but the bike is early 90's and the components > all look to be Campy Athena so I assume that the headset it likely > from the gruppo (anyway to confirm?). Anyway, the headset does > not seem to fit correctly with those retainer bearings; as tight as I > can wrench it it still seems to need to be tightened a bit more. I > suspect that at least the lower race had larger bearings (3/16" ?) > originally. Anyone know? Any way to find out? > Early 90s? Campagnolo had not yet developed big bearing on bottom/ small bearing on top headsets yet. If it is a Campagnolo headset the pieces will say so. Many manufacturers use offbrand headsets in otherwise Campagnolo bikes. If it doesn't feel right, you might get another opinion about the ball size and count. We've discussed here recently that bearing retainers are commonly flipped over, too. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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19-04.-2004, 03:42 PM
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#9 |
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Re: No keyed washer on headset
>all look to be Campy Athena so I assume that the headset is likely >from the gruppo (anyway to confirm?). I've been playing with some 1970's / 1980's nuovo record and triomphe headsets recently. if you clean the top of the ball bearing retainer and look at it carefully, it should say "brev campagnolo italy" if its campy. otherwise its generic. The only other place it probably says campy if its a lower-end model, such as victory / triomphe /athena, is if you removed the races from the head tube and look at the outside of the top race. the "brev campagnolo italy" is normally pressed up against the inside of your head tube where nobody can ever see it. victory/tiomph crown races don't say anything on the bottom ; nuovo record ones identify as brev campagnolo italy. - Don Gillies San Diego, CA |
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20-04.-2004, 06:50 AM
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#10 |
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Re: No keyed washer on headset
A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message news:<1086kr9mgcq2973@corp.supernews.com>...
> Rick Warner wrote: > > Early 90s? Campagnolo had not yet developed big bearing on > bottom/ small bearing on top headsets yet. If it is a > Campagnolo headset the pieces will say so. Many > manufacturers use offbrand headsets in otherwise Campagnolo > bikes. If it doesn't feel right, you might get another > opinion about the ball size and count. We've discussed here > recently that bearing retainers are commonly flipped over, too. Thanks for the input. I know which way the retainers go, and they were correct. Over the weekend I replaced them with 5/32" loose balls, and the issue is the same. Perhaps I will just get it as tight as I can and let it go at that for a while, and eventually replace it with a known entity. - rick |
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20-04.-2004, 09:47 AM
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#11 |
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Re: No keyed washer on headset
Rick Warner writes:
>> Early 90s? Campagnolo had not yet developed big bearing on bottom/ >> small bearing on top headsets yet. If it is a Campagnolo headset >> the pieces will say so. Many manufacturers use off brand headsets in >> otherwise Campagnolo bikes. If it doesn't feel right, you might get >> another opinion about the ball size and count. We've discussed here >> recently that bearing retainers are commonly flipped over, too. I think you mean the ball cage and these only fit one way with 20 balls on those Campagnolo bearings. > Thanks for the input. I know which way the retainers go, and they > were correct. Over the weekend I replaced them with 5/32" loose > balls, and the issue is the same. Perhaps I will just get it as > tight as I can and let it go at that for a while, and eventually > replace it with a known entity. I don't know what you mean by "as tight as I can" but the head bearing should be adjusted so that it turns freely between fingertips (without the wheel and handlebars attached to the fork. The closest way to approach that without removing the bars and wheel is to lift the bicycle tilted forward just enough so that the front wheel lazily swings to center with the bearing adjusted so that it does not chatter when bouncing the front wheel on the floor. This routine requires some skill but it is a lot faster than taking the bars and wheel off to do it the precise way. This will also reveal an indexed bearing because when it doesn't chatter it will index, coming to an oscillating stop in a set of dimples. The trick is to not tilt the bicycle farther forward than just enough to make a properly adjusted bearing swing from side to side, other wise it won't reveal whether the bearing is too tight. http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8f.13.html Jobst Brandt jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org |
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