Upgrade Plan for Trek 400: Cranks first

bigsky

I hear that there are compatability issues between 9spd Ultegra and
non-Ultegra components and would like to know if that includes cranks.

I have a Trek 400 I bought in 1986 with brand new SIS drivetrain. I
rebuild it with Ultegra (bar end shifters) in 1990 (minus the crank/BB)
and now I am looking to upgrade it to 27 speed Ultegra set slowly (in
budget).

Can I replace the BB and crankset with new Ultegra hardware? The Sakae
SX double crank is a 5 bolt with a 130mm bcd mounting. If the
chainrings have changed, is there any problem using the older chainrings
on new Ultegra cranks?

The BB is in the worst shape, so I want to replace it, the crankset
(Ultegra triple) and front derailler (if nessicary) first. I would use
my existing 7 speed wheelset and derailler (front shifter in friction
mode)until I can work replacing the rest into my budget. Its been a
number of years since I worked in a bike shop, so any technical details
about the new Ultegra 9 speed hardware would be appreciated.

Steve

Ryan Cousineau

In article <IABgc.20323$A_4.20263@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
bigsky <nospam4me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> I hear that there are compatability issues between 9spd Ultegra and
> non-Ultegra components and would like to know if that includes cranks.
>
> I have a Trek 400 I bought in 1986 with brand new SIS drivetrain. I
> rebuild it with Ultegra (bar end shifters) in 1990 (minus the crank/BB)
> and now I am looking to upgrade it to 27 speed Ultegra set slowly (in
> budget).
>
> Can I replace the BB and crankset with new Ultegra hardware? The Sakae
> SX double crank is a 5 bolt with a 130mm bcd mounting. If the
> chainrings have changed, is there any problem using the older chainrings
> on new Ultegra cranks?
>
> The BB is in the worst shape, so I want to replace it, the crankset
> (Ultegra triple) and front derailler (if nessicary) first. I would use
> my existing 7 speed wheelset and derailler (front shifter in friction
> mode)until I can work replacing the rest into my budget. Its been a
> number of years since I worked in a bike shop, so any technical details
> about the new Ultegra 9 speed hardware would be appreciated.

Are you upgrading to new Ultegra gear? Because the 2004 Ultegra is all
but guaranteed to use the new Hollowtech II crank/BB setup. This looks
like a substantial improvement over the current pipe-spindle design used
by Shimano.

Also, if you need a stopgap BB, something like a Shimano UN-72 is about
$20 and of very good quality.

Ultegra will also likely become a 10-speed group next year, but that
matters much less, since the only part that is likely to change due to
that is the right shifter, and possibly the freehub body. Based on the
Dura-Ace 10 setup, everything else will be compatible between 9 and 10
speed.

--
Ryan Cousineau, rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

bigsky

Ryan,
I'm not hung up on going with the newest Ultegra. I've been out of
serious riding for some time, but I have been happy with the old
Ultegra. If I can get a new 2003 ultegra crank for a bargin, thats OK.
I have even been considering using a different crank (Ritchey comes to
mind) if there is a problem in using old + new Ultegra. As long as I
can get a quality system built in stages to get me riding faster
(schedule, not speed).
Steve

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> In article <IABgc.20323$A_4.20263@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> bigsky <nospam4me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I hear that there are compatability issues between 9spd Ultegra and
>>non-Ultegra components and would like to know if that includes cranks.
>>
>>I have a Trek 400 I bought in 1986 with brand new SIS drivetrain. I
>>rebuild it with Ultegra (bar end shifters) in 1990 (minus the crank/BB)
>>and now I am looking to upgrade it to 27 speed Ultegra set slowly (in
>>budget).
>>
>>Can I replace the BB and crankset with new Ultegra hardware? The Sakae
>>SX double crank is a 5 bolt with a 130mm bcd mounting. If the
>>chainrings have changed, is there any problem using the older chainrings
>>on new Ultegra cranks?
>>
>>The BB is in the worst shape, so I want to replace it, the crankset
>>(Ultegra triple) and front derailler (if nessicary) first. I would use
>>my existing 7 speed wheelset and derailler (front shifter in friction
>>mode)until I can work replacing the rest into my budget. Its been a
>>number of years since I worked in a bike shop, so any technical details
>>about the new Ultegra 9 speed hardware would be appreciated.
>
>
> Are you upgrading to new Ultegra gear? Because the 2004 Ultegra is all
> but guaranteed to use the new Hollowtech II crank/BB setup. This looks
> like a substantial improvement over the current pipe-spindle design used
> by Shimano.
>
> Also, if you need a stopgap BB, something like a Shimano UN-72 is about
> $20 and of very good quality.
>
> Ultegra will also likely become a 10-speed group next year, but that
> matters much less, since the only part that is likely to change due to
> that is the right shifter, and possibly the freehub body. Based on the
> Dura-Ace 10 setup, everything else will be compatible between 9 and 10
> speed.
>

Ryan Cousineau

In article <BElhc.17002$l75.3099@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
bigsky <nospam4me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

[post de-TOFU'd]

> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > In article <IABgc.20323$A_4.20263@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> > bigsky <nospam4me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> >>The BB is in the worst shape, so I want to replace it, the crankset
> >>(Ultegra triple) and front derailler (if nessicary) first. I would use
> >>my existing 7 speed wheelset and derailler (front shifter in friction
> >>mode)until I can work replacing the rest into my budget. Its been a
> >>number of years since I worked in a bike shop, so any technical details
> >>about the new Ultegra 9 speed hardware would be appreciated.

Basically, the new Ultegra hardware is pretty straightforward. A set of
9v shifters will work with almost any indexing-capable Shimano
derailleurs.

> > Are you upgrading to new Ultegra gear? Because the 2004 Ultegra is all
> > but guaranteed to use the new Hollowtech II crank/BB setup. This looks
> > like a substantial improvement over the current pipe-spindle design used
> > by Shimano.

> > Ultegra will also likely become a 10-speed group next year, but that
> > matters much less, since the only part that is likely to change due to
> > that is the right shifter, and possibly the freehub body. Based on the
> > Dura-Ace 10 setup, everything else will be compatible between 9 and 10
> > speed.
>
> I'm not hung up on going with the newest Ultegra. I've been out of
> serious riding for some time, but I have been happy with the old
> Ultegra. If I can get a new 2003 ultegra crank for a bargin, thats OK.
> I have even been considering using a different crank (Ritchey comes to
> mind) if there is a problem in using old + new Ultegra. As long as I
> can get a quality system built in stages to get me riding faster
> (schedule, not speed).
> Steve

If you can get recent Ultegra cheaply, that's super. But since you're
not racing and just want nice gear, in Shimano's line I would consider
105, at least if price matters much.

The reason I suggest it is that it has most of the performance of
Ultegra (and as of right now, there are virtually no functional
differences: they use the same BB spindle type, and are both 9-speed
systems). If if it was me, and my budget fell into the
can-afford-Ultegra-but-can't-wait-until-Fall-for-2005-Ultegra range, I
would probably buy an aftermarket crank, BB, and rings (probably
something fancy and ISIS-based like those nifty FSA cranks), mainly
because what I have heard here (mainly from Jobst) leads me to believe
that ISIS spindles do not have the same inherent spindle-damage issues
that Shimano's Octalink setup does.

As for the rest of the system, Tiagra is most of the functionality and a
bit more weight for a lot less money, but by then you're into
square-taper spindles and cheesier-looking shifters (style matters,
right?)

Finally, I am a sucker for the 105 black-colored group, so there you go.

Keep in mind I am so cheap I race on a bike with a Sora shifter, right
side only.
--
Ryan Cousineau, rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

rocketman58

bigsky wrote:

> I hear that there are compatability issues between 9spd Ultegra and
> non-Ultegra components and would like to know if that includes cranks.
>
> I have a Trek 400 I bought in 1986 with brand new SIS drivetrain. I
> rebuild it with Ultegra (bar end shifters) in 1990 (minus the crank/BB)
> and now I am looking to upgrade it to 27 speed Ultegra set slowly (in
> budget).
>
> Can I replace the BB and crankset with new Ultegra hardware? The Sakae
> SX double crank is a 5 bolt with a 130mm bcd mounting. If the
> chainrings have changed, is there any problem using the older chainrings
> on new Ultegra cranks?
>
> The BB is in the worst shape, so I want to replace it, the crankset
> (Ultegra triple) and front derailler (if nessicary) first. I would use
> my existing 7 speed wheelset and derailler (front shifter in friction
> mode)until I can work replacing the rest into my budget. Its been a
> number of years since I worked in a bike shop, so any technical details
> about the new Ultegra 9 speed hardware would be appreciated.
>
> Steve

Steve,

I assume your Trek is 21 speed (7 speed rear)? Since you want to go
with 27 speed (9 rear), you will need to upgrade a lot of components.
Rear hub (rebuild or replace rear wheel), cassette, chain, shifters,
most likely rear deraileur as well. I have used 8 speed cranks with 9
speed drivetrains (may or may not work ok), but since you are looking
for a new crank/bb anyway... If you use friction (front) bar-end
shifters, you can get by with a 7/8 speed front deraileur. But since
you are already spending $$ for the rest of the stuff, you might as
well get the front deraileur too. You may need to spread the rear
drop-outs of your frame also. I think the rear hub spacing may have
increased between 7 and 8 speed.

I guess the point I am getting to is: How attached are you to your
Trek? It is very easy to spend more upgrading your old bike than it
would cost to buy a new bike, especially with some of the close-out
deals going on now. Add up all the parts and see if it is cost
effective. If not, maybe replace the BB for now, and save up for a
new bike.

Rick Warner

artisticwill@worldnet.att.net (rocketman58) wrote in message news:<70ce0d5a.0404210930.39eb48b@posting.google.com>...
> bigsky wrote:
>

>
> I assume your Trek is 21 speed (7 speed rear)? Since you want to go
> with 27 speed (9 rear), you will need to upgrade a lot of components.
> Rear hub (rebuild or replace rear wheel), cassette, chain, shifters,
> most likely rear deraileur as well. I have used 8 speed cranks with 9
> speed drivetrains (may or may not work ok), but since you are looking
> for a new crank/bb anyway... If you use friction (front) bar-end
> shifters, you can get by with a 7/8 speed front deraileur. But since
> you are already spending $$ for the rest of the stuff, you might as
> well get the front deraileur too. You may need to spread the rear
> drop-outs of your frame also. I think the rear hub spacing may have
> increased between 7 and 8 speed.
>
> I guess the point I am getting to is: How attached are you to your
> Trek? It is very easy to spend more upgrading your old bike than it
> would cost to buy a new bike, especially with some of the close-out
> deals going on now. Add up all the parts and see if it is cost
> effective. If not, maybe replace the BB for now, and save up for a
> new bike.

Nyet! The Trek 400 is a wonderful bike and it would be a shame not
to
take advantage of it and fix it up.

You are a bit off on your suppositions. A 1986 Trek would have had a
6sp freewheel in the rear, not 7. The rear dropout spacing should be
126;
possible to put a modern 130mm hub in there, but easier and better to
spread the rear. Not that big of deal. Contrary to your post, the
front end
of the drive train is essentially blind to what is on the rear. I can
take
my 1988 Trek 400T and put on a 9sp rear and not worry one bit about
the
current cranks and front derailleur. What does need to match are the
shifters and the front derailleur, and the chainrings and the front
derailleur.

If it were me, I would not rush to STI. I would move the DT shifters
to bar ends, get a better crankset/BB, and then ... if needed ... fix
up the wheels.
Wait a minute, this was me a few months ago. All I did so far was
move the DT
shifters and build new wheels. Was tempted to spread the rear for an
8 or 9
sp drive train, but in the end pulled out an old Phil Wood threaded
hubset and
still have a 6sp freewheel on the back. Want to ditch the BioPace
crankset,
but that can wait a day or two. Even used it on a 3 day mini-tour in
February - worked great.

My vote, keep the nice steel frame and fix it up to be what you want.

- rick

dvt

> bigsky wrote:
>>Can I replace the BB and crankset with new Ultegra hardware? The Sakae
>>SX double crank is a 5 bolt with a 130mm bcd mounting. If the
>>chainrings have changed, is there any problem using the older chainrings
>>on new Ultegra cranks?
>>
>>The BB is in the worst shape, so I want to replace it, the crankset
>>(Ultegra triple) and front derailler (if nessicary) first. I would use
>>my existing 7 speed wheelset and derailler (front shifter in friction
>>mode)until I can work replacing the rest into my budget. Its been a
>>number of years since I worked in a bike shop, so any technical details
>>about the new Ultegra 9 speed hardware would be appreciated.

If you replace the BB and the cranks at the same time, you should have
no problems. The new chainrings should work just fine with the old chain
and f. derailler, assuming the chainrings are about the same size. If
the old chainrings are smallish (i.e. 26-38-48), your front derailler
will work but shifting will be less than optimal.

rocketman58 wrote:
> I assume your Trek is 21 speed (7 speed rear)? Since you want to go
> with 27 speed (9 rear), you will need to upgrade a lot of components.
> Rear hub (rebuild or replace rear wheel), cassette, chain, shifters,
> most likely rear deraileur as well.

If the old rear wheel has a freewheel, you'll need a new rear hub. If
the old rear wheel has a cassette you'll be able to use the old wheel
with a new freehub. If you're unfamiliar with the terms freehub,
freewheel, and cassette, go to www.sheldonbrown.com/harris and look the
words up in his glossary. You'll also find an excellent page that will
answer most (if not all) of your questions on this matter.

You won't need to replace the rear derailler if it's made by Shimano.

> How attached are you to your
> Trek? It is very easy to spend more upgrading your old bike than it
> would cost to buy a new bike, especially with some of the close-out
> deals going on now. Add up all the parts and see if it is cost
> effective. If not, maybe replace the BB for now, and save up for a
> new bike.

I second that opinion. I'd modify it by saying this: if you want an
Ultegra drivetrain, the new bike route might make more sense than the
upgrade. If you want to refurbish the old bike, I suggest using
lower-cost components. They work just as well, but they weigh a bit more
and maybe don't quite look as nice. The cheaper components won't impress
your friends as much, but if you're riding a 1986 bike, you're probably
not worried about that.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

rocketman58

dvt wrote:
> If the old rear wheel has a freewheel, you'll need a new rear hub. If
> the old rear wheel has a cassette you'll be able to use the old wheel
> with a new freehub. If you're unfamiliar with the terms freehub,
> freewheel, and cassette, go to www.sheldonbrown.com/harris and look the
> words up in his glossary. You'll also find an excellent page that will
> answer most (if not all) of your questions on this matter.

You can NOT use a 9 speed Shimano Cassette on a 7 speed Shimano
freehub - At least not with all 9 cogs. At least his has been my
experience.

bigsky

Thank you for all the info. Basically there are several aspects of what
I am doing here. I want to keep my steel frame, one I specifically
selected for the geometry. Not to mention, they do not make steel
frames much anymore, and I don't like the feel of aluminum. The only
frmaes in steel are not of as high quality or are very costly.

When I upgraded my Trek before (12 to 14 speed, SIS to Ultegra with bar
ends) in 1990, I was working for a bike shop (Bicycle Sports,
Shereveport LA). I enjoyed working on the bike as much as riding it and
had plenty of access to the tools required. I even built the wheelset
that are still strong and true today. Now, I don't have access to the
tools, so instead of spending all the money to get a new bike, I will
be using the same amount to buy upgrade components and tools for
wheelbuilding.

Long story short (too late, I know) not only do I want to keep the
frame, I want to invest in some tools to have some fun too. I'm just
glad I can upgrade slowly so I don't have to take it out of commision or
have to do it all at once.

Thank you for your help.

Steve

dvt wrote:

>> bigsky wrote:
>>
>>> Can I replace the BB and crankset with new Ultegra hardware? The
>>> Sakae SX double crank is a 5 bolt with a 130mm bcd mounting. If the
>>> chainrings have changed, is there any problem using the older
>>> chainrings on new Ultegra cranks?
>>>
>>> The BB is in the worst shape, so I want to replace it, the crankset
>>> (Ultegra triple) and front derailler (if nessicary) first. I would
>>> use my existing 7 speed wheelset and derailler (front shifter in
>>> friction mode)until I can work replacing the rest into my budget.
>>> Its been a number of years since I worked in a bike shop, so any
>>> technical details about the new Ultegra 9 speed hardware would be
>>> appreciated.
>
>
> If you replace the BB and the cranks at the same time, you should have
> no problems. The new chainrings should work just fine with the old chain
> and f. derailler, assuming the chainrings are about the same size. If
> the old chainrings are smallish (i.e. 26-38-48), your front derailler
> will work but shifting will be less than optimal.
>
> rocketman58 wrote:
>
>> I assume your Trek is 21 speed (7 speed rear)? Since you want to go
>> with 27 speed (9 rear), you will need to upgrade a lot of components.
>> Rear hub (rebuild or replace rear wheel), cassette, chain, shifters,
>> most likely rear deraileur as well.
>
>
> If the old rear wheel has a freewheel, you'll need a new rear hub. If
> the old rear wheel has a cassette you'll be able to use the old wheel
> with a new freehub. If you're unfamiliar with the terms freehub,
> freewheel, and cassette, go to www.sheldonbrown.com/harris and look the
> words up in his glossary. You'll also find an excellent page that will
> answer most (if not all) of your questions on this matter.
>
> You won't need to replace the rear derailler if it's made by Shimano.
>
>> How attached are you to your
>> Trek? It is very easy to spend more upgrading your old bike than it
>> would cost to buy a new bike, especially with some of the close-out
>> deals going on now. Add up all the parts and see if it is cost
>> effective. If not, maybe replace the BB for now, and save up for a
>> new bike.
>
>
> I second that opinion. I'd modify it by saying this: if you want an
> Ultegra drivetrain, the new bike route might make more sense than the
> upgrade. If you want to refurbish the old bike, I suggest using
> lower-cost components. They work just as well, but they weigh a bit more
> and maybe don't quite look as nice. The cheaper components won't impress
> your friends as much, but if you're riding a 1986 bike, you're probably
> not worried about that.
>