Cycling and bicycle racing discussion forums.   View New Forum Topics
Today's Forum Topics

Set as homepage


Go Back   Cycling Forums > Bike Racing > Grand Tours - Giro - Tour de France - Vuelta a España
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Welcome to CyclingForums.com

You are currently viewing our website as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions. You will have to register before you can post to this thread.

By joining our free online community you will have access to post new topics, communicate privately with other cyclingforums.com members (PM), respond to polls, upload photos and access other special features like product reviews and classifieds.


How tough is the modern TDF ?

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 29-07.-2004, 07:34 PM   #1
limerickman
Community Team
 
limerickman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: at the bar
Posts: 12,658
Default How tough is the modern TDF ?

I ask this question because I have dug out an account of the 1924 TDF from the French journalist Londre.

I think that this is very interesting for those who look at the modern TDF and to compare just how difficult the TDF was in it’s pioneering phase during the early 20th century.

Londres was an accomplished journalist who was invited to write about the TDF by his paper in order to capture and I quote “the beauty of this tortuous race”.
Londre was ensconced with the riders.

Just so to set the context for those who do not know the history of LeTour – here is a brief outline.
The TDF was founded by Henri Desgrange to promote sales of his newspaper.
To do this he devised the concept of staging a cycle race around France.
Participants were invited to enter the race as individuals (teams were not entered until many years later).

The bikes used in those years – only had one gear.
They were heavy machines with big tyres.
All cyclists had to bring their own food and their own spare tyres, tubes and other spare parts.
They had to carry all of these items, themselves.
There were no team support cars, no radio communication.
The roads upon which these guys cycled were nothing more that dirt tracks, outside of the major towns and villages.
The rules of the race were enforced very very strictly by Desgrange.
For example, a rider was not allowed to remove or add clothing during each stage.
So if a rider turned up with a cape on (if it was raining at the start of the stage), he had to cycle the entire stage with his cape on, even if the weather dried or if the temperature go very warm.
If he was seen to have removed his cape – he was thrown out of the race.

Desgrange wanted to create a race where “men suffer and overcome the greatest of obstacles”.
Desgrange said “this event is about suffering – it is about will – it is about man overcoming the elements, only reliant upon his heart and his determination”.
Desgrange believed in “muscular Christianity” the belief that toil purified the soul and made a person better for having suffered physically.

Londre sets out a very insightful account of the 1924 TDF.
He starts by describing the start in Paris at 1.30am in the morning.
157 men had turned up at the starting line to “eat dust” as Londre
described it.
The good citizens in all their finery turn out to see these men of steel set out
on the first stage of the 1924 TDF.

Londre describes how the crowd of people cheered and whopped as these
“convicts of the road in the dead of night” set off on 381km (yes folks, that’s
236 miles of racing !!!!!!!!!!!) from Paris to LeHarve (on the west coast of France), stage 1.
Cycling through the night, these men rode, in total darkness.
The roads were flat and open and Londre describes the first night as being “cold but clear”.
Londre says that as the stage progressed “earlier conversations, were now mere whispers, as the dawn rose”.
On these men went – on and on through the towns on the West Coast of France until after 15 hours (15 hours !!!!!!!!!!!), they arrived in to LeHarve at 4.00pm.
Londre described the crowd in Le Harve as being excited and thrilled to see these cyclists “caked in dry dust” entering their town.
The winner Bottechia finishing with a small group of cyclists.
The Mayor presented the Italian with a loaf of bread !
Out of the 157 starters, 139 finished – already 18 victims on the road.

15 stages were held in all in 1924 TDF.
It took these men 30 days to finish the entire 5,400 km route.
The average stage was 300+ kilometers in distance.
The longest stage was 482 kms (299 miles !!!!!!!!!!).

Londre describes how the mountains took their effect on the riders.
It is stage 10 and they have already covered 3,682 kilometres
(this is the same distance as the 2004 TDF – the 1924 edition
had another 1,750 kilometres further to complete !!)
“I saw men with the vacant look of a dog departing this earth.
Their eyes lifeless, vacant, dead”
They slowly climb the Allos – the road rising, up and up relentlessly.
The cyclists eyes are directed toward their handlebars, for they don’t want
to look up to see what is up ahead of them.
Their heads hang downward – resigned to this punishing fate.
Is it sweat or tears that fall to the ground as they climb ? Who knows ?
Tortuous and slow, every movement is painful, every limb aches.
Their tired lifeless bodies pushing against an inhuman gradient.
What makes a man do this to himself – already they have journeyed
through hell, but yet they go on.
What is in their souls that prevents them from getting off their infernal bikes
and just going home to their families and loved ones ?
Over the Allos, then on to the Col Vars and then finally the Izzard.
What drives a man who is physically and mentally spent ?”
Londre describes how villagers take pity on these men and how “women
at the roadside hold out jugs of water so that these men can drink and quench their raw throats”.
Londre describes how teenagers run along side the cyclists, in their bare feet,
holding a parasol so as to protect the cyclist if only for a few seconds for the
unforgiving heat of an unremitting sun.

Stage 11 – Briancon to Gex : 307kms though is the breaking point.
Taking in the the giant climbs of Galibier, Telegrah and Aravis.
The riders are called from the bedrooms for 2.00am start.
“How many kilometers today, Bague ?” they shout.
Bague is Desgranges right hand man.
“Oh, only 307 kms today” he replies.
“Fantastic” they shout, as they make their way downstairs to start the days
stage race.

Londre describes the staple diet of the riders – dust !
1924 was a very hot summer and the dust rose from the roads as they cycled.
Londre records one cyclist saying “I ate dust, yummy”
“We had dust for breakfast, dust for lunch and dust for dinner – dust from Le Harve to Brest to Quimper, yummy, I love my rationm of dust”
“When I get back to my bath in the evening, I have to refill it three times, because
the dust is everywhere – in my eyes, in my clothes, on my goggles, in my hair, between my toes ! ”

At 8.00am after 6 hours riding, Millo is in terrible trouble on stage 11.
“I am dead” he says to Bague.
“You are dead ? You know nothing of dead. You need to remember
that your mother and father will read about this race and do you want to let them down ?”
“I have no tendons” says Millo.
“I cannot turn my pedals”.
“You have no tendons ? You have no heart that’s what you mean !” shouts Bague.
“I cannot go on” says Millo
“You will go on – you will go because you must go on – you must go on for your family but most of all for yourself”.
Londre records that Millo finished stage 11, 3 hours after the first finisher.

Londre’s account is a fascinating record of the TDF from an age when most of cannot comphrend just how tough the racing conditions were.
Given the toughness of those early tours, the average speed was 24kms per hour.
If you consider riding over dirt tracks with fixed wheels, covering 5,400 kms in total, that average speed is pretty impressive.

Out of 157 starters only 60 men completed the 1924 TDF.
The winner finished in a time of 226 hours and 18 mins.
The winner was the Italian Ottavio Bottechia.
The last man to finish was Victor Lafosse some 45 hours and
12 mins behind.

So when you watch the highlights of LA’s 2004 victory – just recall
what Londre has described here for the 1924 version, 80 years ago.
limerickman is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 29-07.-2004, 07:59 PM   #2
gntlmn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Anchorage, Alaska, USA
Posts: 1,672
Default Re: How tough is the modern TDF ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by limerickman
Out of 157 starters only 60 men completed the 1924 TDF.
The winner finished in a time of 226 hours and 18 mins.
The winner was the Italian Ottavio Bottechia.
The last man to finish was Victor Lafosse some 45 hours and
12 mins behind.

So when you watch the highlights of LA’s 2004 victory – just recall
what Londre has described here for the 1924 version, 80 years ago.


It certainly was different back then, but I'm sure no one wants to have a "classic" race come back into vogue. Times sure have improved for the cyclists, fans, race organizers.

This talk of pedalling style and cadence is moot up to a certain year (I don't know when) because they all used to ride one gear back then. I wonder when they started using derailleurs in the TdF. It was only then that you had a choice on cadence at a given speed.

That's a good article. The struggle clearly has been at the heart and soul of the Tour since the beginning.

Notice back then that the peloton was much smaller. This year's Tour had 188 riders (one rider on Mayo's team was dq'd for drugs). Back then, they started with 157. Therefore, it was probably easier to do a breakaway back then. The peloton wouldn't have been quite as strong. Of course, with one gear I also wonder how well they could actually attack.

It would be neat to view some Tour footage from back in those days. I bet there isn't much of that because of the lack of technology back then.
gntlmn is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29-07.-2004, 08:18 PM   #3
limerickman
Community Team
 
limerickman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: at the bar
Posts: 12,658
Default Re: How tough is the modern TDF ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gntlmn
It certainly was different back then, but I'm sure no one wants to have a "classic" race come back into vogue. Times sure have improved for the cyclists, fans, race organizers.

This talk of pedalling style and cadence is moot up to a certain year (I don't know when) because they all used to ride one gear back then. I wonder when they started using derailleurs in the TdF. It was only then that you had a choice on cadence at a given speed.

That's a good article. The struggle clearly has been at the heart and soul of the Tour since the beginning.

Notice back then that the peloton was much smaller. This year's Tour had 188 riders (one rider on Mayo's team was dq'd for drugs). Back then, they started with 157. Therefore, it was probably easier to do a breakaway back then. The peloton wouldn't have been quite as strong. Of course, with one gear I also wonder how well they could actually attack.

It would be neat to view some Tour footage from back in those days. I bet there isn't much of that because of the lack of technology back then.


The derailleur was around - but Henri Desgrange only allowed the introduction of it in the 1930 (I think it was 1934, if I recall correctly).
Desgrange wanted to "preserve the integrity" of the TDF.

Londre describes an scene where Bottechia was having difficulty removing his tyre and he had to resort to using his teeth !

I have to say I have a very high regard for these men back in those times.
I know the sport today is about pressure and money but to me these guys
were tough, tough men.
"Hewn from the fields and hard labour - these men cam to LeTour to try
their luck - to simply finish - to be a man of the Tour"
This sentence captivates how hard life was then - and even with this hardship these guys would leave their manual labour jobs to sweat it out for
a month on the roads of France, for glory.

Fantastic.
limerickman is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 29-07.-2004, 09:03 PM   #4
kriegslust
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 13
Default Re: How tough is the modern TDF ?

Cycling is far too backwards looking. I can't see it happening in football, people telling everyone how much more athletic the sport was when they had to use an inflated pig's bladder. Things change. The past is the past and we shouldn't forget it, but let's not make it into something it isn't.
kriegslust is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29-07.-2004, 09:25 PM   #5
limerickman
Community Team
 
limerickman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: at the bar
Posts: 12,658
Default Re: How tough is the modern TDF ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kriegslust
Cycling is far too backwards looking. I can't see it happening in football, people telling everyone how much more athletic the sport was when they had to use an inflated pig's bladder. Things change. The past is the past and we shouldn't forget it, but let's not make it into something it isn't.


Well I wasn't trying to say that 1924 was better than 2004.
What I was trying to convey was the difficulty of the 1924 TDF (and tours
of that era, in general).
I wasn't saying that it was better or worse.

Like you, I am all for progress.
But in making progress - we need to keep what is essentially what the TDF
was all about.
The struggle.
I would contend that to finish a TDF under the conditions of 1924 is tougher,
given the prevailing conditions, than todays conditions.
Everything is relative - but when I see winners standing on the podium looking as fresh as a daisy, I think "it was certainly tougher years ago".
That doesn't mean that I am saying the modern riders are weak, either.

This is what made being "un homme de leTour" so great.
To struggle through what Londre portrayed takes a tough person.
If you ever get a chance to see the old photos - look at the expressions on those faces and then contrast that with the images of USPS or TMO or Basso
pedalling along with no sense of distress.
limerickman is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 29-07.-2004, 09:38 PM   #6
mojomarc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 72
Default Re: How tough is the modern TDF ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by limerickman
I ask this question because I have dug out an account of the 1924 TDF from the French journalist Londre.

The famous quote from this tour was one of the riders quoted Desgrange as saying ""The ideal Tour would be a Tour in which only one rider survived the ordeal," which was then relayed to the world by Londres. The nickname of this one was "the Tour of suffering." So good choice ;-)

Of course, you could have picked 1923--in that year, after 13 years of trying, Henri Pelissier won his only tour. What is notable about this is two years earlier, Desgrange said that he would never win a tour, that he didn't know how to suffer. Based on that evidence, I suspect it to be the first case of doping in the history of the Tour (just kidding, Lim--couldn't help myself )

Quote:
Out of 157 starters only 60 men completed the 1924 TDF.

Despite the reputation, the 1919 tour was even worse. Only 10 finishers total on the war-ravaged roads of France, and only 25 were left after just the third stage. Of course, they could have just been looking forward to the 5th stage: the longest in Tour history at 482km.

Of course, whenever you compare these early races to modern races, you have to understand that these races weren't so much about speed as about survival. The average winning time in those days, at 24km/hr attest to that. I know we're all fans of the Tour, but I seriously doubt I'd stick around to watch 231 hours (the winning time) of live Tour coverage, especially when it would take almost a full day before the tenth finisher showed up.
mojomarc is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29-07.-2004, 10:22 PM   #7
jhuskey
Registered User
 
jhuskey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Great Smoky Mountains, TN USA
Posts: 6,572
Default Re: How tough is the modern TDF ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomarc
The famous quote from this tour was one of the riders quoted Desgrange as saying ""The ideal Tour would be a Tour in which only one rider survived the ordeal," which was then relayed to the world by Londres. The nickname of this one was "the Tour of suffering." So good choice ;-)

Of course, you could have picked 1923--in that year, after 13 years of trying, Henri Pelissier won his only tour. What is notable about this is two years earlier, Desgrange said that he would never win a tour, that he didn't know how to suffer. Based on that evidence, I suspect it to be the first case of doping in the history of the Tour (just kidding, Lim--couldn't help myself )


Despite the reputation, the 1919 tour was even worse. Only 10 finishers total on the war-ravaged roads of France, and only 25 were left after just the third stage. Of course, they could have just been looking forward to the 5th stage: the longest in Tour history at 482km.

Of course, whenever you compare these early races to modern races, you have to understand that these races weren't so much about speed as about survival. The average winning time in those days, at 24km/hr attest to that. I know we're all fans of the Tour, but I seriously doubt I'd stick around to watch 231 hours (the winning time) of live Tour coverage, especially when it would take almost a full day before the tenth finisher showed up.


I have recaps of all the TDF races and most in the early years were 5000 + Kms. on dirt roads. I have seen old photos of riders sharing a cigarette in the peloton. I find that sort of comical considering what is know now.
__________________
Sobriety is over rated!
jhuskey is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29-07.-2004, 10:26 PM   #8
limerickman
Community Team
 
limerickman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: at the bar
Posts: 12,658
Default Re: How tough is the modern TDF ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomarc
The famous quote from this tour was one of the riders quoted Desgrange as saying ""The ideal Tour would be a Tour in which only one rider survived the ordeal," which was then relayed to the world by Londres. The nickname of this one was "the Tour of suffering." So good choice ;-)

Of course, you could have picked 1923--in that year, after 13 years of trying, Henri Pelissier won his only tour. What is notable about this is two years earlier, Desgrange said that he would never win a tour, that he didn't know how to suffer. Based on that evidence, I suspect it to be the first case of doping in the history of the Tour (just kidding, Lim--couldn't help myself )


Despite the reputation, the 1919 tour was even worse. Only 10 finishers total on the war-ravaged roads of France, and only 25 were left after just the third stage. Of course, they could have just been looking forward to the 5th stage: the longest in Tour history at 482km.

Of course, whenever you compare these early races to modern races, you have to understand that these races weren't so much about speed as about survival. The average winning time in those days, at 24km/hr attest to that. I know we're all fans of the Tour, but I seriously doubt I'd stick around to watch 231 hours (the winning time) of live Tour coverage, especially when it would take almost a full day before the tenth finisher showed up.


Mojo,

Wasn't it Pelissier who said that they were taken stryicneen (my spelling !)
and stuff and he described that "we're so tanked up that we dance around our bedrooms at night" ?

236 hours of cycling ! (LOL)

1919 - only 10 did finish.
I know we have spoken about who is the greatest rider - and for me Phillipe
Thys of Belgium has to be up there : 1913, 1914 and 1920 TDF winner.
Given those conditions (styricneen, dust, fixed wheels etc), he has to be
one of the ATG's.
limerickman is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 29-07.-2004, 11:17 PM   #9
meehs
Registered User
 
meehs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Posts: 1,848
Default Re: How tough is the modern TDF ?

Great thread Limerickman! I had never really heard an account of the early TdF before. It's amazing what those guys went through back then. It's hard to even imagine. Single speeds???

My dad found a framed black and white picture from an old TdF in an antique shop and gave it to me for Christmas one year. It's a fairly common picture, I'm sure some of you have seen it. It shows a group of five or so riders on their bikes smoking cigarettes. One rider is giving another rider a light. Someone wrote on the back "In those days the riders thought that smoking helped increase theor lung capacity". Pretty interesting!
meehs is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29-07.-2004, 11:49 PM   #10
limerickman
Community Team
 
limerickman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: at the bar
Posts: 12,658
Default Re: How tough is the modern TDF ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meehs
Great thread Limerickman! I had never really heard an account of the early TdF before. It's amazing what those guys went through back then. It's hard to even imagine. Single speeds???

My dad found a framed black and white picture from an old TdF in an antique shop and gave it to me for Christmas one year. It's a fairly common picture, I'm sure some of you have seen it. It shows a group of five or so riders on their bikes smoking cigarettes. One rider is giving another rider a light. Someone wrote on the back "In those days the riders thought that smoking helped increase theor lung capacity". Pretty interesting!


Thanks Meehs.
Yeah this guy Londre - the journalist - is really interesting.

I'm digging through more of his stuff and will post same.
I'm glad that people are interested in this stuff - I think it's great to read about these blokes back then.
limerickman is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 30-07.-2004, 12:46 AM   #11
jhuskey
Registered User
 
jhuskey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Great Smoky Mountains, TN USA
Posts: 6,572
Default Re: How tough is the modern TDF ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by limerickman
Thanks Meehs.
Yeah this guy Londre - the journalist - is really interesting.

I'm digging through more of his stuff and will post same.
I'm glad that people are interested in this stuff - I think it's great to read about these blokes back then.


Do you guys have the Centennial Edition Toue De France. It has fairly detailed facts of every TDF race from 1903 on. It is excellent and has been on my coffee table a year now. Armstrong did the foreword in it but nonfans can skip that part. I gave one to a fiend of mine who grew up with the tour and he thinks it is a great book.
__________________
Sobriety is over rated!
jhuskey is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 30-07.-2004, 12:52 AM   #12
meehs
Registered User
 
meehs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Posts: 1,848
Default Re: How tough is the modern TDF ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhuskey
Do you guys have the Centennial Edition Toue De France. It has fairly detailed facts of every TDF race from 1903 on. It is excellent and has been on my coffee table a year now. Armstrong did the foreword in it but nonfans can skip that part. I gave one to a fiend of mine who grew up with the tour and he thinks it is a great book.


I saw that book in a book shop. It's really cool! I spent about a half hour leafing through it. I'd love to get a copy. As I recall it was kinda spendy though?
meehs is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 30-07.-2004, 12:58 AM   #13
jhuskey
Registered User
 
jhuskey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Great Smoky Mountains, TN USA
Posts: 6,572
Default Re: How tough is the modern TDF ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meehs
I saw that book in a book shop. It's really cool! I spent about a half hour leafing through it. I'd love to get a copy. As I recall it was kinda spendy though?


I am thinking I got a copy on line for around $20 a year ago. It is worth every penny.
__________________
Sobriety is over rated!
jhuskey is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 30-07.-2004, 01:02 AM   #14
jhuskey
Registered User
 
jhuskey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Great Smoky Mountains, TN USA
Posts: 6,572
Default Re: How tough is the modern TDF ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meehs
I saw that book in a book shop. It's really cool! I spent about a half hour leafing through it. I'd love to get a copy. As I recall it was kinda spendy though?


Just checked from $16 used to about $22 -$29 for a new book.
__________________
Sobriety is over rated!
jhuskey is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 30-07.-2004, 01:07 AM   #15
meehs
Registered User
 
meehs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Posts: 1,848
Default Re: How tough is the modern TDF ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhuskey
Just checked from $16 used to about $22 -$29 for a new book.



That's not bad at all. I was thinking it was more. I'm in!
meehs is offline  
Reply With Quote

Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT +10. The time now is 08:14 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Copyright © 2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2001 - 2006 cyclingforums.com

Links to websites we like:
Pezcyclingnews | Cyclingnews.com | Wine Zone | iinet