Swiss Army Knives - follow up

David WE Roberts

Hi,

started into the original thread but couldn't hack the thousands of
responses.

Also the URL was missing.

Was it
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/...8/ixportal.html

This seems to be a load of badly written rabble rousing bollocks, but it
does raise one question, which was possibly answered (but which I would
like to confirm).

I have seen some words about a 'lock knife' - does this apply to any
knife, however large or small, which has any kind of lockable blade?

The 'backpacker' version if the popular Victorinox range has a lockable
blade - and very sensible too. You wouldn't want the blade to fold over
and cut your fingers so any well designed folding knife should be able to
lock the main blade purely for safety reasons.

These knives are sold by the hundreds (thousands) every year in outdoor
shops all over the country.

I carry one nearly all the time because it is so useful - being an IT
addict I can use it to take a PC apart for repair/upgrade and being a food
consumer it is invaluable for opening plastic packaging :-)

[In addition to 1001 other uses]

So am I to understand that it is illegal to carry one of these knives?

Granted that any knife can be used to cause harm, are we now not allowed
to carry even a penknife?

I understood (from my reading of the local press) that a lot of assaults
with knives were with Stanley knives (cheap, easily available, and also
with a 'slide and lock' mechanism).

Is the legislation targeted at these (and picks up Swiss Army Knives as a
byproduct) or do we have the usual crazy situation where you can buy these
knives in any camping shop but then can't take them out of the shop
without breaking the law?

I assume that there is some discretion, and a need to show 'intent',
otherwise how do professional chefs carry their larger cooking knives
(ISTR there is something about blades over a certain length being classes
as 'offensive weapons') or people take cooking implements home?

Or is it even more crazy?

Can you carry a cooking knife around in your briefcase but not a penknife?

Does it reduce the severity of the offence if you are riding a bicycle and
not driving a car :-)

Cheers

Dave R

P.S. fishermen also seem to use lockable knives - you also see them for
sale in all the shops in Spain etc. Presumably these also fall within the
same legislation - but not the Samurai swords?

JLB

David WE Roberts wrote:

> I have seen some words about a 'lock knife' - does this apply to any
> knife, however large or small, which has any kind of lockable blade?

This is discussed to death umpteen times in the thread you stopped
reading, and rather than go through it all again, it would be kinder to
everyone else if you read what has already been sent.
--
Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap

David WE Roberts

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 18:31:05 +0000, JLB wrote:

> David WE Roberts wrote:
>
>> I have seen some words about a 'lock knife' - does this apply to any
>> knife, however large or small, which has any kind of lockable blade?
>
> This is discussed to death umpteen times in the thread you stopped
> reading, and rather than go through it all again, it would be kinder to
> everyone else if you read what has already been sent.

GROAN

O.K. I fought my way through Iraq (figuratively), airlines, proof spirits
and other such tosh and finally found some useful information.

So the answer seems to be "Yes and No"

Or was it the other way round?

Sniper8052(L96A1)

David WE Roberts wrote:
> On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 18:31:05 +0000, JLB wrote:
>
>
>>David WE Roberts wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I have seen some words about a 'lock knife' - does this apply to any
>>>knife, however large or small, which has any kind of lockable blade?
>>
>>This is discussed to death umpteen times in the thread you stopped
>>reading, and rather than go through it all again, it would be kinder to
>>everyone else if you read what has already been sent.
>
>
> GROAN
>
> O.K. I fought my way through Iraq (figuratively), airlines, proof spirits
> and other such tosh and finally found some useful information.
>
> So the answer seems to be "Yes and No"
>
> Or was it the other way round?


Oh no, not again.

http://www.stormfront.org/archive/t-129818

It's not brilliant, but it will do.

Sniper8052

Dave Kahn

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 19:08:48 +0000, David WE Roberts
<nospam@talk21.com> wrote:

>O.K. I fought my way through Iraq (figuratively), airlines, proof spirits
>and other such tosh and finally found some useful information.
>
>So the answer seems to be "Yes and No"
>
>Or was it the other way round?

Quick summary. Under the Criminal Justice Act it is prohibited to
carry a knife in a public place except for a folding knife with a
blade of 3 inches or less. In various court judgements it has been
ruled that a knife with a blade that locks open does not count as a
folding knife within the Act, and is therefore prohibited.

The Act does allow two specific defences. The first is being able to
show that you have good reason or lawful authority to carry the knife
in a public place. The second is being able to prove that the knife is
carried for work, for religious reasons or as part of national
costume.

There are other laws concerning the carrying of weapons so even if an
object is not prohibited under the CJA you could, under certain
circumstances, still be prosecuted for carrying an offensive weapon.

--
Dave...

Get a bicycle. You will not regret it. If you live. - Mark Twain

A.Lee

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 16:49:24 +0000, David WE Roberts wrote:

> So am I to understand that it is illegal to carry one of these knives?

The original poster was a troll.
There may have been some truth in his report,but I doubt it.
You can safely carry any knife around ,with conditions, so long as the
blade is less than 3 inches long.I'm not sure if that is a measurement of
the sharp cutting edge, or the length from the handle.I suspect it is the
length from the handle, as I have 2 Webley 'lock' knives, which both have
a blade length of 3" from handle to point. Pic here:
http://www.webley.co.uk/pics/kl89b.jpg

I carry this around when at work.If I took it with me on a night out,or
even any other public place, then I would expect to be arrested for
carrying an offensive weapon - the law states that you can carry any knife
around with you, so long as you have a valid reason for having it.
Carrying your penknife/multi-tool etc will not get you arrested.

If, however, you threaten someone with ANY size knife, then that knife is
classed as an offensive weapon, and you could be charged with the same
offence as someone threatening to use a 'rambo' style knife, even though
you have 'only' flashed your 2" blade at them.
Alan.



--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.
http://www.dvatc.co.uk - Off-road cycling in the North Midlands.

Jon Senior

Dave Kahn dkahn400@yahoo.co.uk opined the following...
> Quick summary. Under the Criminal Justice Act it is prohibited to
> carry a knife in a public place except for a folding knife with a
> blade of 3 inches or less. In various court judgements it has been
> ruled that a knife with a blade that locks open does not count as a
> folding knife within the Act, and is therefore prohibited.
>
> The Act does allow two specific defences. The first is being able to
> show that you have good reason or lawful authority to carry the knife
> in a public place. The second is being able to prove that the knife is
> carried for work, for religious reasons or as part of national
> costume.
>
> There are other laws concerning the carrying of weapons so even if an
> object is not prohibited under the CJA you could, under certain
> circumstances, still be prosecuted for carrying an offensive weapon.

Quicker summary: You're guilty.

Jon

Just zis Guy, you know?

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 21:11:16 GMT, "Sniper8052(L96A1)"
<sniper8052@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
<UJpsd.75921$F7.35395@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>:

>http://www.stormfront.org/archive/t-129818
>It's not brilliant, but it will do.

Shame about the site, but, yes, that is very complete indeed.

Guy
--
"then came ye chavves, theyre cartes girded wyth candels
blue, and theyre beastes wyth straynge horn-lyke thyngs
onn theyre arses that theyre fartes be herde from myles
around." Chaucer, the Sheppey Tales

Just zis Guy, you know?

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 21:50:02 GMT, Dave Kahn <dkahn400@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote in message <enb4r0h29pg910nb9lfnmshdvj1tdmo4qk@4ax.com>:

>The Act does allow two specific defences. The first is being able to
>show that you have good reason or lawful authority to carry the knife
>in a public place. The second is being able to prove that the knife is
>carried for work, for religious reasons or as part of national
>costume.

I am now forming a Church whose tenets are that you must carry a
flick-knife and not wear a PFDB...

Guy
--
"then came ye chavves, theyre cartes girded wyth candels
blue, and theyre beastes wyth straynge horn-lyke thyngs
onn theyre arses that theyre fartes be herde from myles
around." Chaucer, the Sheppey Tales

MSeries

A.Lee wrote:
> On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 16:49:24 +0000, David WE Roberts wrote:
>
>
>>So am I to understand that it is illegal to carry one of these knives?
>
>
> The original poster was a troll.
> There may have been some truth in his report,but I doubt it.
> You can safely carry any knife around ,with conditions, so long as the
> blade is less than 3 inches long.I'm not sure if that is a measurement of
> the sharp cutting edge, or the length from the handle.I suspect it is the
> length from the handle, as I have 2 Webley 'lock' knives, which both have
> a blade length of 3" from handle to point. Pic here:
> http://www.webley.co.uk/pics/kl89b.jpg
>
> I carry this around when at work.If I took it with me on a night out,or
> even any other public place, then I would expect to be arrested for
> carrying an offensive weapon - the law states that you can carry any knife
> around with you, so long as you have a valid reason for having it.
> Carrying your penknife/multi-tool etc will not get you arrested.
>
> If, however, you threaten someone with ANY size knife, then that knife is
> classed as an offensive weapon, and you could be charged with the same
> offence as someone threatening to use a 'rambo' style knife, even though
> you have 'only' flashed your 2" blade at them.
> Alan.
>
>
>
So you are The Flashing Blade.

Alan Braggins

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
>On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 21:50:02 GMT, Dave Kahn <dkahn400@yahoo.co.uk>
>wrote in message <enb4r0h29pg910nb9lfnmshdvj1tdmo4qk@4ax.com>:
>
>>The Act does allow two specific defences. The first is being able to
>>show that you have good reason or lawful authority to carry the knife
>>in a public place. The second is being able to prove that the knife is
>>carried for work, for religious reasons or as part of national
>>costume.
>
>I am now forming a Church whose tenets are that you must carry a
>flick-knife and not wear a PFDB...

Aren't flick-knifes in the "illegal, no defences" category? How about
"Must carry a multi-tool with a locking blade"?

Andy Leighton

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 21:56:35 +0000, A.Lee <alan@darkroom.+.com> wrote:
> carrying an offensive weapon - the law states that you can carry any knife
> around with you, so long as you have a valid reason for having it.
> Carrying your penknife/multi-tool etc will not get you arrested.

Although the Leatherman Super-Tool with its 4 inch locking blade may
get you a few questions to answer.

--
Andy Leighton => andyl@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

David WE Roberts

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 21:11:16 +0000, Sniper8052(L96A1) wrote:

> David WE Roberts wrote:
>> On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 18:31:05 +0000, JLB wrote:
>>
>>
>>>David WE Roberts wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I have seen some words about a 'lock knife' - does this apply to any
>>>>knife, however large or small, which has any kind of lockable blade?
>>>
>>>This is discussed to death umpteen times in the thread you stopped
>>>reading, and rather than go through it all again, it would be kinder to
>>>everyone else if you read what has already been sent.
>>
>>
>> GROAN
>>
>> O.K. I fought my way through Iraq (figuratively), airlines, proof
>> spirits and other such tosh and finally found some useful information.
>>
>> So the answer seems to be "Yes and No"
>>
>> Or was it the other way round?
>
>
> Oh no, not again.
>
> http://www.stormfront.org/archive/t-129818
>
> It's not brilliant, but it will do.
>
> Sniper8052

Thanks - good information and On Topic (for an Off Topic thread) :-)

I now am in something of a quandary, though.

For years (10 or more IIRC) I have carried around the 'backpacker' version
of the Swiss Army Knife in a pouch on my belt.

In general, I have used it for work (e.g. taking computers apart), for
DIY, general car maintenance, opening beer bottles, using tweezers to
remove splinters, the toothpick to select my teeth etc. etc.

[Just checked, and the blade is marginally over 3" long so even as a
non-locking folding knife it would not be exempt]

Because I use it so much (and am now of an age where 'senior moments' can
occur) I tend to just leave it on my belt all the time so it will be there
when I need it.

The first article on the web site suggests that if I am shopping in Tescos
(or other supermarket of choice) that I should remove the knife and lock
it in my car (although it also says the car is classed as a 'public
place').

I assume that this is a safe and correct interpretation of the law.

How much risk to my freedom is there in continuing to generally carry this
SAK about with me?

Is being an ageing (and relatively harmless looking) geek/nerd enough
defence, or will I be at major risk of having my shower time more communal
than at present?

Cheers

Dave R

Jon Senior

Andy Leighton andyl@azaal.plus.com opined the following...
> Although the Leatherman Super-Tool with its 4 inch locking blade may
> get you a few questions to answer.

I was thinking about this thread today when I borrowed a Leatherman from
a colleague and then had to pack the blade away. The little piece of
metal with the picture of a padlock on it must be depressed before the
blade will go away. I suspect that the entertainments industry would
collapse if this was enforced too strongly!

Jon