How Much Recovery is Enough?

RapDaddyo

How much recovery is enough? Okay, let's say that my 40K TT max. steady state power is 275w and that I want to apply a variable power pacing strategy for a 40K TT on a rolling course. I want to increase my power by ~50w-100w in the slow sections (uphill, upwind) and recover at ~210w only long enough to be able to bring my power back up to 275w and sustain it. From interval sessions, it appears that my HR comes down from ~90% to ~75% in ~90 seconds following a 5-10 min push at 325w-375w. It doesn't seem to matter whether the push was 2 min or 10 min, it still drops down to 75% in ~90 seconds. Is HR a good benchmark for adequate recovery or do I need to recover for about as long as the push > max 40K TT power? Due to the HR lag, can I assume I am adequately recovered after 60 secs and that my HR just hasn't caught up? Are there any general rules or does this vary from individual to individual?

frenchyge

I'm starting to think maybe you have an endorsement tied to the number of times you say "variable power pacing strategy," but since it's interesting I'll give it a go.

My thinking is that you need to recover long enough so that your normalized power through the "push" and "recovery" portions equals the steady state average power.

In that case, if the SS pwr is 275, push pwr is 325 and recovery pwr is 210, then you need to recover for a duration equal to 1.29 times the push duration. (((325/275)^4 + (210/275)^4 * 1.29) / (1+ 1.29) )^.25 = 1
This was solved iteratively using an excel spreadsheet. If you increase your push pwr to 375, then you recovery duration becomes 2.8 times your push duration.

Looking at your HR comments, I'm not sure how applicable they would be. Sure HR will drop from 90% to 75% in ~90 sec, but if this is a 40K TT then your SS HR is going to be 90+% already. Pushing 50-100 watts further into the red is really going to hurt, and even pulling back to 76% pwr (210W) is still going to require tremendous effort to continue. It's going to take quite a while for HR to ease back down to the SS value after that big push, if you don't blow up entirely.

RapDaddyo

No, but having proven to myself that it is indeed the fastest way to ride an undulating course (i.e., most courses), and in the absence of a tool to use to model various pro-forma pacing strategies for a given course, I want to build my own tool. Figuring out where and when to increase and decrease power is easy. The hard part is to figure out the necessary recovery following a push. Ideally, I'd like to have an observable "trigger" for the end of the recovery segment, a "green light" to bring my power back up to SS. But, I expect you are correct in that I need to build a normalized power algorithm for the recovery segments. That's probably because HR only measures recovery of my cardio capacity, yet what I need to recover is my blood lactate level.

Actually, in interval sessions this doesn't appear to be the case. Granted, I'm not doing these intervals after 45 minutes at 275w, but it seems to take ~90 secs for my HR to come down from any level regardless how long it has been elevated. It just seems as though the heart is just very happy to have the stress removed and says, "Okay, I can relax. This idiot is done for now."

frenchyge

I'm just giving you crap. It's pretty interesting to me and I can't wait to get my hands on a power meter to start playing around.


That's just the opposite for me, as I alluded to in another thread. When I do my HR intervals, I have to spike up the power to get my HR to the target level quickly, but I'm sure I let off quite a bit while my HR "hangs" in the target zone until the end of the interval. Sure, it comes down at the end of the interval, but I'm practically free-wheeling during that rest period. This hanging effect is more pronounced in each subsequent interval, until by the end it seems like I can pedal along happily for quite a while my heart is pounding away at ~90% MHR. The later intervals feel easier, because my HR seems to be totally unrelated to power by that point.

RapDaddyo

I used to do the same, in both cases. One of the first things I learned with my PM was that I had been "playing the float" with my HR lag. The intervals (especially zones 5/6) became significantly harder when I did them without playing the float. Second, I used to virtually freewheel following an interval. But, thinking about the real world of recovery (RRs, crits and TTs), I began playing around with recovery at speed. I was sort of amazed to learn that I could recover rather quickly at the upper end of Zone 2. That has led me to my question, "Just how long do I need to recover before I can ramp it up again?" For obvious reasons, I want to find this out and exploit it to the hilt in races.

frenchyge

As you've said, I imagine lactate will catch up with you eventually on a longer TT, unless you make some efforts to normalize your power back to your steady state value.

Ric's mentioned before, though, that there's no reason to try to maintain lactate near a steady state value. If it gets you the best time, try to finish with your blood so full of lactate that you can barely move. As long as the course finishes with a flat or slight downhill, then push it to the hilt on the last climb and limp down to the finish at whatever power you can scrounge up. There's no reason to normalize at the finish, when you can recover under a tree somewhere.

RapDaddyo

I agree. I'm not overly concerned about the last 10 minutes, because I think I could just hang in, sort of like the last of a set of hard intervals -- the last one is 100% mental over physical. But, I'm really nervous about the first 1/2 hour. The course I'm working on at the moment has a brutal climb right off the line, followed by a steep downhill, another steep climb, descent and then a 3 mile steady 4% climb to a rolling section followed by a descent to the finish. It's the first 5-7 miles I'm worried about. I want to max out the climbs to save time but I'll need to recover for the rolling section.

frenchyge

Wow, that sounds like a challenging TT course! Those steep descents are probably close to 0 watt recovery periods, so you'll definitely have to force the issue on the steep climbs. Sounds like it would be really easy to tip just a little too far over the edge at the beginning of the ride, though. When's that race?

RapDaddyo

Yeah, it is sort of an interesting TT course in the first 5-7 miles and again at the finish. The race is not until 10/16, but bear in mind that I didn't originally plan to race until next Spring. I'm not so concerned about my finish position in the race, but want to use it as a test lab for VP pacing and a benchmark for my fitness. I'll have to change my gearing. Right now my biggest gear is 52/13. I'm definitely going to at least 52/11 so that I don't gear out on the descents, especially the final long, steady descent at the finish. I want to be pushing close to 400w during that section, so I need more resistance than I have now.

frenchyge

Hmmmm... I would have thought your VP strategy would dictate steadily killing yourself on the rollers, and then having the bike bear your lifeless body down to the finish line by itself.

Still, turning the cranks slowly in the 52x11 is almost like a free 2-3 mph, since it uses so little power.

RapDaddyo

Normally, I'd agree. In fact, the ideal finish would be at the end of a climb. But, you have to take the course as you find it and the last short roller tops out 2.2 miles from the finish. The last 2.2 miles is a steady downhill grade. I can't imagine needing more than the first mile to be fully recovered and ready to go. Once I've recovered, I plan to just let it all out to the finish, then collapse. I like the intellectual challenge of coming up with the perfect VP strategy for a new course, with realistic constraints. It's fun to figure out what's optimal. Of course, I still have to turn the cranks, but I'll have a game plan.

biker-linz

For the sake of physiological correctness: lactate is utterly harmless and won't stop you from doing anything. I only mention this because it's a very common misconception. It's also highly unlikely that lactate production has any part to play in fatigue at all. If you care (and you probably don't ) you would be more correct to speak in terms of 'acidosis'. Physiologists measure lactate because it's production, accumulation and clearance tend to mirror the equvalent production, accumulation and clearance of protons (which cause muscular acidosis). In fact the transporter proteins which move lactate across the cell wall are symports for protons (ie they carry protons as well as lactate). For a full explanation see Rob Robergs wonderful (and free) review at sportsci.com.

L.

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RST Associate Coach
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biker-linz

Kinda, but your heart isn't what needs to recover, it could probably beat all week at threshold. Your muscles need to recover from the levels of acidosis caused by going so deeply into the red. FWIW I vote for using the NP algorithm; it works amazingly well for the kind of job you describe.

L.

__________________
MSc (Applied Sport and Exercise Science)
RST Associate Coach
ABCC Level 3 Coach
Doctoral Student (Physiology), University of Oxford, UK.
www.cyclecoach.com
www.science4sport.com

RapDaddyo

Actually, I do care to know what needs to recover and why and how. And, I basically knew that my heart could beat at a high level forever. But, I was wondering if it was a proxy for anything important. It's just nice because I can measure it during the ride. I was sort of headed toward the NP algorithm to work out the recovery phase following a push > 40K TT power. I just need to make sure I have the algorithm correct before I start modeling it. Then, I plan to test it. Thanks for the clarification. I had no idea my acidosis was so incompetent as to go into the red with a measly extra 50-100 watts.