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29-07.-2006, 03:53 AM
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#1 |
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 12
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Neuromuscular power question--for A. Coggan (or anyone else)
When doing my power profile 5-second test, I'm having a difficult time figuring out the best way to do it. Neuromuscular power is my limiter. Should these be done from a rolling start, from a standstill, on a short hill? What about gearing? Should I wind out the gears, like on a short 15-second sprint, and hammer at the end? Then take the best 5-second average?
I can't seem to get consistent 5-second numbers. This is the third month I've been measuring my power profile. Last month I averaged 876, but that was after several attempts. Today, I was 200 watts under that. I did them fresh so fatigue was not an issue. I tried one on a short hill and a couple others on a flat into the wind, starting from about 12 mph. FYI, I'm a 40-plus expert class mountain bike racer, weighing 61.3 kg. I'm only 5-foot-4, but muscular (29-inch waist). If you looked at me, you'd figure neuromuscular power would be my strength. But I've never really trained it before I got my PowerTap, because I assumed that was a strength. However, my power profile tests revealed that to be a fallacy. If you're curious, here's how my power profile breaks down: 1-min power 474 watts (7.73) 5-min power 264 (4.31) FTP 219 (3.57) Thanks in advance for any insights. --Dean |
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29-07.-2006, 04:38 AM
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#2 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 639
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Re: Neuromuscular power question--for A. Coggan (or anyone else)
Go back to your best test result and look at cadence and speed. That will give you the key to what gave you the best result.
OTOH if you've done testing under the same conditions, check your training. FWIW, I get my best results from rolling up to 35km/h and jumping in an intermediate gear (52x16,17) on a flat course. Legspeed works! Force type sprints (standing starts, uphill sprints) have high power over the whole sprint but a lower peak and 5s power. IME. |
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29-07.-2006, 04:58 AM
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#3 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,622
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Re: Neuromuscular power question--for A. Coggan (or anyone else)
The only "trick" to precisely measuring your neuromuscular power is to make sure that 1) you are adequately rested when you begin your effort, and 2) you reach optimal cadence (which is typically 110-130 rpm) very quickly, i.e., w/in just a few seconds. You can accomplish these goals different ways, e.g., by doing an all-out standing start in a small (39 x 15-19) gear or by coasting down a hill then launching into your sprint in a much larger gear. As long as you meet thse criteria, however, then you should get the same value, or nearly the same value, every time (changes due to training/fatigue excepted, of course).
BTW, if standing up while sprinting is, for some reason, a challenge for you, then there's nothing wrong with doing such tests in the saddle (and/or on a trainer). You'll likely find that your power is a bit (i.e., 5-15%) lower when testing this way, but this approach might make it easier to detect changes in leg power. Last comment: you didn't mention what type of powermeter you're using, but whatever it is, make certain that you have it configured so as to faithfully "capture" your 5 s power. |
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29-07.-2006, 04:59 AM
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#4 | |
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Community Team
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newport, South Wales
Posts: 3,831
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Re: Neuromuscular power question--for A. Coggan (or anyone else)
Quote:
Start from stationary (or as close to stationary as possible without falling or putting a foot down) and use a very low gear (e.g., 39 x 19) so that you spin it out.
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29-07.-2006, 05:45 AM
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#5 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 4,115
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Re: Neuromuscular power question--for A. Coggan (or anyone else)
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29-07.-2006, 01:20 PM
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#6 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 957
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Re: Neuromuscular power question--for A. Coggan (or anyone else)
Quote:
Unless this person is incredibly underpowered, they will spin out that 39x19 way too early during a 5 second power test. To the original poster: Look for a road that has a small dowhill leading into a sharp uphill. Roll down the hill at speed, in your big ring, and then NAIL it up the hill for 7-8 seconds, in a gear that maximises power, WITHOUT shifting. Then average the 5 highest readings in the downloaded view for your 5 second power. Imagine you are trying to get every last bit of energy out your body during the effort.
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"friendship, family, religion. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business!" -Mr. Burns  The faster you go, the fewer passing cars 
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29-07.-2006, 01:23 PM
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#7 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 957
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Re: Neuromuscular power question--for A. Coggan (or anyone else)
Quote:
I can't believe there is even a question to as which produces the highest power - seated or standing. Seriously, if you don't know how much more powerful standing is, then you need to do a LOT more sprints. I get the feeling that most people (average cyclists) are so severely undertrained in neuromusclar power. You guys could make massive improvements in that area if you tried.
__________________
"friendship, family, religion. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business!" -Mr. Burns The faster you go, the fewer passing cars
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29-07.-2006, 04:09 PM
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#8 | |
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Community Team
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newport, South Wales
Posts: 3,831
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Re: Neuromuscular power question--for A. Coggan (or anyone else)
Quote:
see andy c's point above mine (which we both wrote at the same time, but andy's was more indepth). Secondly, at ~870 W the person doesn't have much power (albeit more than me, and some pros). ric
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29-07.-2006, 05:06 PM
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#9 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 957
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Re: Neuromuscular power question--for A. Coggan (or anyone else)
Quote:
I still think 870watts would spin out that gear a few seconds too early. I don't think standing starts using 1 gear are good for anyone looking to record 5 second power. There is too much of a change in cadence. The goal should be to stay in one gear the whole time, with a minimal change in speed/cadence, while at optimal cadence. I can get a good 5 second reading from a standing start(big ring), but I need to shift 2 times to keep my cadence in the best range. But even this is not great because of the power loss during the shifts.
__________________
"friendship, family, religion. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business!" -Mr. Burns The faster you go, the fewer passing cars
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29-07.-2006, 05:43 PM
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#10 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 525
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Re: Neuromuscular power question--for A. Coggan (or anyone else)
Quote:
I agree. there is no comparison in seated and standing sprints. How exactly do YOU train to increase neuromuscular power? and has it affected ur slowtwitch efforts. No-one can sprint like cippolini and climb like sastre no matter how much drug they take. There is a cut-off point we all get too where one skill hurts the other. |
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29-07.-2006, 09:45 PM
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#11 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Guildford, UK
Posts: 225
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Re: Neuromuscular power question--for A. Coggan (or anyone else)
I used a rolling course to achieve my best figure to start with - roll down the gradient gaining high cadence then maintaining the cadence up the other side of the hill.
More recently, I have found greater success on flats, where I have got my best 5sec power, but I do think cadence training is vital for this exercise, and finding the best gearing also important. RD, I like the idea of rolling in at ~700w(100rpm), then spinning out from there, I will give that a try. I would imagine that this would also improve slightly longer periods at high wattage, ie - 10-20 second power? |
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29-07.-2006, 09:53 PM
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#12 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 4,115
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Re: Neuromuscular power question--for A. Coggan (or anyone else)
Quote:
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30-07.-2006, 12:14 AM
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#13 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,052
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Re: Neuromuscular power question--for A. Coggan (or anyone else)
Quote:
Which would tend to create enough fatigue before your sprint that your 5s power will be lower. If it isn't, then I suspect you're not using 2x/2b fibers for the rollup and probably don't use them much for the test either-probably because they're poorly developed and why 5s power is so low. As velomanct said... An uphill of appropriate grade should allow you to maintain cadence in your optimal range, especially if that range is limited. Sprint in a 39x19? Talk about efforts that do not mimic anything close to racing conditions... If that's the gear you need then you either don't care about your NM power, or you need to do some training for your ability. As velomanct said, if you can't produce more power out of the saddle than in the saddle you could do better if you improved your out of the saddle technique. Doing a few dozen (over a period of weeks) 10" sprints out of the saddle in a 53x19-17 would be a good way to start doing that. And then you repeat your 5s test and see that you can produce more power, and mostly because of improvement in technique, not because of significant changes in your physiology. Similar for some other aspects of sprinting. Are you trying to evaluate your physiology with poor technique as a limiter? Last edited by WarrenG : 30-07.-2006 at 12:55 AM. |
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30-07.-2006, 12:42 AM
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#14 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,052
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Re: Neuromuscular power question--for A. Coggan (or anyone else)
Quote:
To be as good as they are at what they do they need to have relatively high amounts of the fiber type(s) best-suited for their racing abilities, and to develop those abilities really well. Cippolini and Sastre do not have (not born with) the same ratios of muscle fiber types, and they have enhanced these differences with training. You and I on the other hand are trying to do well in a 1 hour race, or maybe 3 hours. You don't need to be able to climb mountain passes all day like Sastre, nor do you need to be able ride near your VO2max for 4-6' and then sprint at 40+mph, although this is probably closer to what most of us want to do well than what Sastre wants to do well. Training for sprinting doesn't have a major effect on your slow fibers, if it's done right, but this can be tricky to do. Probably the most important impact will be your general fatigue from training one type/range of fibers that affects your ability to train the other. For (peak power) sprinting you will be using some fast fibers that could instead be trained more for endurance than peak power. The trick is to do enough training so that your sprint is where you want it, and your endurance is still good enough. Think of Paulo Bettini and Alejandro Valverde. There are ways to kind of isolate the different fiber types in your training efforts using certain power ranges, volumes, recovery periods, cadences, etc., and you can do testing that can tell you what each of those fiber types are doing in response to the training. One key will be to develop your slow fibers really well with methods that do not recruit a lot of the fast fibers you want to develop for sprinting. |
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30-07.-2006, 01:37 AM
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#15 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 957
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Re: Neuromuscular power question--for A. Coggan (or anyone else)
Quote:
Exactly. As for training 5 second power, I simply did a lot of short sprints. Uphill, downhill, on flats. One of my favorites was to get up to about 25mph, and when a car passes me, I would nail it, attempting to close the gap they would have on me. (works best if the car is going 35-40mph). I would stop as soon as my acceleration tapered off to only 1mph per second. I also did a lot of very short hill sprints, coming off a fast section of slight downhill. Roll into them at ~ 27-30mph, and accelerate over them. (same setup as for testing 5 second power) I also did starts, both seated and standing, big gear and small gear. Some days I would focus on high cadence, others would be force. But the bottom line is, neuromuscular power is used very very little in road events. I do sprints because they are fun. You are better off working on your lactate tolerance if you want to win your crit. Power during those finishes is quite low in comparison to my short sprint efforts in training. I always had blown legs when the sprint started. Good sprint power has some benefits though. It's harder for me to ride a steep 100 ft climb at 700watts than it is to blast up the hill in an all out sprint. I don't think good neuromuscular power has any noticable affect on endurance. For me, my endurance suffered because I simply was doing sprints instead of 3 hour time trials. But you can't get in a good sprint workout during a hard ride. Most every ride I do is done at level 1/2 with sprints thrown in. One thing to remember, sprinting is VERY mental. You are only limited by your mind(true for everything in life). Disregard everything you know about your limits. http://www.cyclingforums.com/t-349905-15-1.html
__________________
"friendship, family, religion. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business!" -Mr. Burns The faster you go, the fewer passing cars
Last edited by velomanct : 30-07.-2006 at 01:53 AM. |
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