I know heart rate doesn't matter, but...

Dave K

I'm just curious about something. I've been doing a lot of L3, L4, L5 work during the past couple of months. This usually consists of three consecutive hard days followed by two or three days of recovery. Before I began really focusing on L4/L5, my average heart rate during an L4 workout (2x20, 2x30) was always between 165 and 170. Now, I usually average between 155 and 160 during my 2x30s, even towards the end of the interval. RPE is the same, and my SRM offset/slope have been verified many times. I feel as though I'm getting adequate rest between training blocks, and I know that heart rate only tells you how fast your heart is beating , but is this normal behavior? I've been riding for about 12 years now, so it's not as though I was untrained before November, although this is the first time I've really honed in on so much L4 work. Everything else has slid down by about 10bpm, too. The top of my endurance range is about 140 (was 150), tempo 150 (was 160), etc. My FTP has been steadily improving, but it just seems odd to do a 40k time trial at 155 BPM! Has anyone else experienced this, or am I just growing a second heart??

NomadVW

It's been like this for me for the colder weather, but as soon as I get on the rollers inside it goes right back to what I would expect for "in-season" heart rates. YMMV.

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RapDaddyo

I experience the same thing, which I attribute to my overall level of fitness rather than a specific component of fitness. When I'm relatively unfit, I get my HR to 90%MHR easily. As I become increasingly fit, it becomes very difficult to get my HR above ~85%. I think this is common. This is one of the two ways that I use HR, as a benchmark of my total fitness. The second way is that I take note of how quickly my HR drops after an L4 or higher effort, again as a benchmark of my total fitness.

Pureshot78

You have the important metric here.

Cardiac Output = Stroke Volume * Stroke Rate

Your HR monitor only measures the Stroke Rate. There are lots of things that could contribute the lower HR that you have observed.

On a macro scale its a sign of higher fitness and / or older age.

I occasionally check my resting HR immediately after waking as a secondary measure for recovery, but other than that, I don't even record it anymore.

If your TT times are coming down and your power is going up, I'd say you are meeting your goals.

*Has anyone had their PCP do any type of EKG or other heart testing on an annual or regular basis? I know pro teams employ physicians and do such tests, but should the average rider be concerned with something like this?*

bulaboy

The same thing just happened to me over the past few WO's. I'm doing the same (well maybe a few watts higher) 2x20's, but my HR has come down about 10 bpm. I was thinking today that maybe I should increase my effort during the last interval, but there was no more power available. Just doing the same amount of work at a lower HR.

We are having some unusually mild weather here lately, and I would normally get out and ride during breaks from the winter weather, but my doggone broken ribs have kept me on the trainer. I hope that in a few more weeks when I am able to get out, that the temps will be high enough. I could use a break from the trainer.

wiredued

Did your resting heart rate go down at the same time you noticed this? It sounds like stroke volume has improved.

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Dave K

Yes, my resting heart rate has gone down quite significantly as well. It sounds like others are seeing the same types of results. I knew that L4 training adaptions included an increase in stroke volume, but I had no idea it would be to this extent! I always assumed that as my power output increased at FTP from week to week, my heart rate would stay the same for the given effort (i.e. week #1 315/165, week #3 320/165, week #5 325/165, etc). Little did I know the true potential of L4 workouts! I figure by July I'll be racing at about 20 BPM...

TiMan

It almost always does Dave, at least in trained individuals like you.

It is unlikely that your stroke volume has gone up much Dave.....nor your lactate threshold heart rate.You have been riding and in shape for 12 years at least.

What kind of ride do you do on the first day of your 3 day block? .....and do you notice a depressed heart rate on this day? If your HR is depressed on day 1 does it get worse on day 2 and 3? If it is not depressed on day 1 does it start getting depressed on day 2 and 3 of the block?

How much has your resting HR gone down?

Dave K

Day 1 usually sees the highest heart rate, but the difference from day 1 - day 3 is only about 3 bpm. My goal right now is to get some miles in my legs, but at the same time focus on L4. Here is what the last block looked like:

Saturday - 3hr total, 2 30-minute L4 sessions @ 100% FTP (160 bpm), the rest high L2 - high L3.

Sunday - 3hr total, 1.5 hr group ride with a hard 30-minute portion that averages L4, 1 30-minute L4 session @ 100% FTP (158 bpm), the rest high L2 - L3.

Monday (indoors) - 1.5hr total, 5 sprints (just for a little L7 work), 2 x 20 @ 100% FTP (161 bpm)

Today's ride was on the rollers, so my heart rate was up a couple of beats to around 161 bpm. My resting heart rate is the lowest it has ever been (about 40), and has been consistently low throughout the block.

I only started training with power in July. It, along with tons of reading as well as this forum, has completely changed the way I train. I think I might simply be uncovering all of the flaws in my training prior to the powermeter. I've never focused on L4 the way I have in the past month and a half, and I can't help but think that although I've been riding for 12 years, I've never actually been "trained"! Too many long, slow group rides (L1-L2), too much emphasis on L6, and not nearly enough L3-L4. If only I had a time machine....

TiMan

You seem to know fatigue will suppress heart rate at all training intensities and even at rest.

Considering your prior "old" training, and the fact that you said your heart rate is highest on day one of your blocks, this current load is making you "over reach" by the end of a block, which is a good thing. However, you may not be fully recovered after your recovery days, even if your L4 power is climbing. You may be carrying enough residual fatigue to keep your heart rates depressed even on day one of your blocks. However, the lower resting heart rate may very well be the result of being in better condition.

You are not over trained since your interest in training remains, your power is going up, and your resting heart rate has not climbed.


When you are training hard....and over reaching as they should....then you will certainly see depression of heart rate across the training board as soon as the second week after a recovery week( I have seen depression sooner).

Try this.....do your L4 work at 95% instead of 100%. Save most of the 100% work for latter on when you are trying to tweak your FTP upwards that last little bit...say in April
If your heart rates remain depressed then.....try to always take three days of recovery after your three training days, if those training days are all fairly hard like you listed, and see what happens to your heart rate on day one of the blocks.

NOW.....are you taking recovery weeks after training like this every 3-4 week?
If you are not then start doing so and take one starting NOW and then come back after 6-7 days of easy rinding with 2-3 off days and see if you heart rates are still depressed. For the recovery week reduce your volume and TSS by a good amount, and don't do any 100% FTP work on any recovery week...and reduce total L4 time.
You don't need to reduce your total volume and Tss as much in the recovery weeks to follow, just reduce by feel, but still reduce and take two days off the bike and limit your L4 work.
If you are taking recovery weeks, and still find that your training heart rates are depressed IN THE FIRST WEEK of training, then your stroke volume has indeed improved.

My guess is that your stroke volume has probably improved a bit but not enough to have knocked down your training heart rates that much.




Recovery week.....
Day 1 recovery ride(RR) 60 minutes
Day 2 RR 45 minute
Day 3..off
Day 4...2 hours L2 , 20 minutes at 95% FTP
Day 5...60 minutes on trainer 20 minutes at 95% L4 and 30 at L3
Day 6...off

Day 7 start your blocks again....beginning with your group ride.


As a side.....never do your sprints on the third day of a block. You need to do them on day one and first in the day or in the workout after a warm up of course.

acoggan

I've been training for and competing in endurance sports since 1973, and I still find that my heart rate at maximal lactate steady state/critical/functional threshold power is lower when I'm more fit, and higher when I'm less fit.

Keep in mind that one of the adaptations to endurance exercise training is a reduction in cardiac output at a given submaximal intensity, with a commensurate increase in arteriovenous O2 extraction. IOW, stroke volume doesn't have to go up for heart rate to come down...

TiMan

Sure but by how much....the changes to LT heart rate are minimal and not to the degree that we are talking about here.



Yes, good point.

acoggan

Mine changes by about half the 10 bt/min that Dave K has observed for himself. However, I would guess that my training has probably been more focussed/consistent over many more years than his, and I don't let my aerobic fitness decline much even in the off-season.

giannip

I noticed that when I was starting back on the bike again, my max was around 203 and now that I am a bit fitter, i can get to 199-200 during a test indoors and a few beats lower in the "real" world of races :-)

Hopefully next week I can translate all of this into power once my wheel is ready!!