How do you increase long distance speed?

donrhummy

I would like to greatly increase my solo-century speed but have been unable to. In the past, I've been able to increase my 50-mile speed but the century always seems stuck at the same speed. This year, I've changed up my training to be a little diff. (only the past 3 weeks, just started it) and I'm not yet sure if it's working. I wanted everyone's thoughts and suggestions.

Currently I do 3 times a week like this:

Day 1: Hard, all out 1-minute sprint intervals for max speed and then 1-leg intervals.

Day 2: "Sustained Power" - 1 hour at 85%-90% of max HR (I don't have a power meter) (And then I usually play basketball or tennis for an hour afterwards)

Day 3: Endurance (usually 75 miles but sometimes longer occasionally shorter with some hills and a small mountain thrown in) - don't really worry too much about pushing speed

Am i on the right track?

daveryanwyoming

This will do nothing for your sustainable speed for long events. This will train your ability to work anaerobically which can be helpful for racers initiating or responding to attacks but will do absolutely nothing for your ability to produce power aerobically which is what counts for any event over a couple of minutes in length.
This is your best core aerobic workout but I'd block it into 20 to 30 minute efforts with five to ten minutes easier pedaling between each block. That helps you stay focused to really give a good effort for each block. This is where you'll get the best bang for your buck in terms of increasing aerobic fitness and the ability to go faster for longer events.
I'd still emphasize speed and focused concentration for this workout but I'd block it again into 30 to 45 minute efforts a bit easier than the Sustained Power day. This is a good day to do Tempo or low SST pacing on a longer ride.
Is this your complete training week or is this block training that cycles around again after a day or two of rest? 3 days a week is tough since it implies 4 days a week off the bike. If this really does represent a full week I'd suggest adding at least one a preferably two more days. Back off some of your durations if you need to make more time. Those extra days should be Tempo or SST/Threshold work depending on how you recover from your previous workouts. More is better to a point, but you should also have one or two good rest days in your weekly cycle.

Good luck,
Dave

donrhummy

I know but if I can't even reach high speeds for 1 minute, how can i expect my legs to have the ability to put out speeds that are higher at all? (Not sure I'm explaining that properly)



Are you sure I'll do better with easy riding in between? I'm using a HRM so i know if my effort wanes at all since it alerts me when I fall below the 85% mark. I'm pretty good at riding above that level for most of the ride and getting better every time I do it.



Can you explain more why it'd be better to do this? I mean, there are easier blocks during my long ride since I hit downhills and straight aways every now and then (and have to stop at lights, etc). How will I aerobically benefit by cutting the efforts into smaller blocks?



Yeah, unfortunately I don't really have time for any more riding. I could maybe add a 30 minute ride somewhere but that's probably it. If so, would that be of benefit and what should I do in that workout?

Spunout

You'll have to spend a lot more time doing centuries.

wiredued

Doing endurance rides doesn't raise endurance power very well because it is outside the sweet spot (duration to long) you are wasting training time if you ride more than 4 hours at your not thinking about it pace you have to concentrate to stay above endurance pace. If you don't have a power meter you might want to consider getting a Kurt Kinetic Road Machine to find your FTP and target 91% FTP it has a reliable power to speed curve. It will also help you fine tune HR for your outdoor rides. If 145bpm is my average at 91% for an hour (3x20 w/5min easy pedaling inbetween) on Wednesday then Tempo is about 7bpm lower on my Saturday outdoor ride.

KK speed to power chart

17mph=183.33w
17.1mph=185.53w
17.2mph=187.74w
17.3mph=189.98w
17.4mph=192.23w
17.5mph=194.51w
17.6mph=196.80w
17.7mph=199.12w
17.8mph=201.46w
17.9mph=203.81w
18mph=206.19w
18.1mph=208.59w
18.2mph=211.01w
18.3mph=213.45w
18.4mph=215.91w
18.5mph=218.39w
18.6mph=220.89w
18.7mph=223.42w
18.8mph=225.96w
18.9mph=228.53w
19mph=231.12w
19.1mph=233.73w
19.2mph=236.36w
19.3mph=239.02w
19.4mph=241.70w
19.5mph=244.40w
19.6mph=247.12w
19.7mph=249.86w
19.8mph=252.63w
19.9mph=255.42w
20mph=258.24w
20.1mph=261.07w
20.2mph=263.93w
20.3mph=266.81w
20.4mph=269.72w
20.5mph=272.65w
20.6mph=275.60w
20.7mph=278.58w
20.8mph=281.58w
20.9mph=284.60w
21mph=287.65w
21.1mph=290.72w
21.2mph=293.82w
21.3mph=296.94w
21.4mph=300.09w
21.5mph=303.26w
21.6mph=306.45w
21.7mph=309.67w
21.8mph=312.92w
21.9mph=316.19w
22mph=319.48w
22.1mph=322.80w
22.2mph=326.15w
22.3mph=329.52w
22.4mph=332.92w
22.5mph=336.34w
22.6mph=339.79w
22.7mph=343.26w
22.8mph=346.76w
22.9mph=350.29w
23mph=353.84w
23.1mph=357.42w
23.2mph=361.03w
23.3mph=364.66w
23.4mph=368.32w
23.5mph=372.01w
23.6mph=375.72w
23.7mph=379.46w
23.8mph=383.23w
23.9mph=387.03w
24mph=390.85w
24.1mph=394.70w
24.2mph=398.58w
24.3mph=402.48w
24.4mph=406.42w
24.5mph=410.38w
24.6mph=414.37w
24.7mph=418.39w
24.8mph=422.44w
24.9mph=426.51w
25mph=430.62w
25.1mph=434.75w......Lance Armstrong FTP maybe
25.2mph=438.91w
25.3mph=443.10w
25.4mph=447.32w
25.5mph=451.57w
25.6mph=455.85w
25.7mph=460.16w
25.8mph=464.49w
25.9mph=468.86w
26mph=473.26w

__________________
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. http://www.earnharts.com/html/reala...ecific.asp?id=3

daveryanwyoming

Yep, that's the logic that sucks a lot of folks into make ya puke minute long anaerobic intervals. Problem is it just doesn't hold up. Sure you'll learn to get your bike up to high speeds for a minute or so, but that fitness doesn't translate to longer efforts since you need to rely on completely different energy delivery systems for those longer efforts. If you want to do hard shorter efforts to bring up your sustainable top speed then make those efforts 3 to 5 minutes long which will train your ability to produce power at VO2 Max pace. That sets the high end of your aerobic capabilities or your aerobic ceiling bring that up over time and you have more room to continue raising your longer term threshold power and speed. VO2 max work is painful both physically and mentally and 3 minutes much less 5 feels real long when you do them at the correct intensity. But if you really want to bring up your sustainable speed with short intense efforts, these are a better bet.
If you can actually hold threshold pace which is basically time trial pace for the duration or very close to it then no, you don't need the breaks. Most folks take the breaks so they can focus their efforts and give their all for each attempt. If you don't need the breaks then fine, but I know I sure do if I want to hold consistent power for all three of my 20 minute L4 efforts.
yes, and no. HR has a lot of momentum IOW, it takes a while to get your HR up to the correct zone while applying constant power and then it doesn't drop instantly when you back the power off. If you do keep the power constant HR tends to drift or continue to rise all the way to the end of the effort. That lag at the beginning of the interval and drift to the end are problematic. It means you can't gauge off of HR for the first five to 6 minutes of a longer effort and if you try to cap your HR at some preset limit you end up backing off on power to hold your HR to a given ceiling. This became real clear to me when I started training with a PM but continued to wear the HR strap.

I've attached a screenshot from a typical 20 minute SST effort. Notice how it takes nearly a third of the interval for HR to hit the mean(red line at top) and that HR continues to drift upwards all the way to the end. Also note that the HR doesn't drop instantly when the power drops, even when I coast and put out no power at the end of the interval where it takes 32 seconds to drop back to the mean and longer to drop out of zone. All those things make HR a poor gauge of interval effort. If I didn't have a PM I'd go back to paying attention to perceived exertion (RPE) and trusting that over HR. FWIW I trained religiously with HR for two decades and wondered why my results were so spotty. I have a better idea of what was happening now that I can see power and HR side by side.

Maybe you can't. In your earlier post you said you "don't really worry too much about pushing speed" on this ride. I'm just saying the same thing Wiredued is, you need some intensity to encourage fitness adaptations and just getting miles isn't the most time efficient approach. If you're already pushing tempo where you get your effort and breathing up during parts of this ride then that's all I'm suggesting. If not it will be a better use of your time than just covering miles.
The basic rule of thumb is to raise intensity if you can't train as much or as long during each session. 30 minutes is hardly worth the time of getting into bike clothes. If you have a trainer I'd say get on it for 30 minutes, do 5 minutes of warmup, one 20 minute L4 effort and 5 minutes of cooldown. That's about the best bang for your buck if you don't have much time. It's not much fun to sit on a trainer but there's no junk miles and you get a lot of training for the time invested. You could try the same approach outside, just try to get to a steady uninterrupted stretch of road or hill quickly, then do a good 15 to 20 minute steady threshold effort then cool down and go home. It's not great but it beats 4 days off a week. The body definitely needs rest after hard workouts, but too much rest and most of us get "blocked up" and need a loosen up ride just to get ready to train again.

Good luck,
Dave

Attached Thumbnails

 

a5hi5m

This drift and the in-effiency have become more obvious to me now that im riding a trainer indoors also. For the last 3-4 weeks I have been riding a constant gear ratio and cadence for 20min intervals, with a warm-up, and a few minute break inbetween and a cooldown at the end. When i download the data from the HRM, the drift is real easy to see. In addition to this, as time has progressed, my HR doesn't get up as high, even riding at a slightly higher cadence to theoretically increase power (same gear ratio). Av HR for the interval is about 8-10 beats lower than when I first started.

-ash

__________________
Ash

.: Refuse to get tickled by the fickle finger of fate :.

donrhummy

Thank you so much for the very informative response (and thanks to everyone else too!). I'm gonna have to think on this before I respond to everything, but one question...


So, how do I judge how hard to be riding those 3-5 minutes? Should it be all-out like my 1-minute rides? Is there a way to use HR to judge this at all or do I just have to "go hard?" And how long do I rest in between?

sidewind

You should ride those so hard that you can make those, e.g. 5*5 min intervals. Too hard, your power/speed will drop in the last ones. Too easy, you feel you could continue with those. The HR won't probably get as high in the first and second interval than in the last ones. One way for pacing could be that you take some there and back course or a loop which you can ride in ~5 minutes, and try to ride it in same time in each interval.

__________________
These are layman's opinions, expressed in language no self-respecting scientist woul be using.

wiredued

Good VO2 max intervals are at 113% FTP between 3 to 8 minutes long if you can find a ride with alot of 3 to 8 minute hills and attack them you can get some VO2 max in easily.

__________________
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. http://www.earnharts.com/html/reala...ecific.asp?id=3

donrhummy

Can you guys explain why if 1-minute intervals won't help for a 5 hr plus ride, 3-8 minute intervals will?

wiredued

Although VO2 max is out side the sweet spot (intensity high duration short) if you have 85% tempo and 91% L4 covered and you have hit a power plateau then VO2 Max can be used to either peak your power 6 weeks before an event or smash the glass cieling on your FTP.

__________________
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. http://www.earnharts.com/html/reala...ecific.asp?id=3

grebletie

Just to reiterate what wiredued said, working on VO2 will "raise the ceiling" on your aerobic abilities, allowing the other work you do at aerobic levels to increase further before leveling out. It's sort of high end aerobic work. Very stressful, but very beneficial.

The 1-min work you refer to targets the anaerobic energy system, which while extremely important as a part of your overall plan, has less to do with century distance speed than aerobic ability.

daveryanwyoming

Because the two efforts are fueled by different energy sources and different metabolic processes. The 3 to 5 minute VO2 max intervals are at least connected to your aerobic fitness and set a limit to how far you can bring that system up. The shorter L6 intervals are working a completely different process.

The shorter one minute intervals are completely anaerobic and fueled by a process called anaerobic glycolocis where you burn stored sugars (glygogen) in the absence of oxygen. Training that system will improve your ability to rely on that system but won't do much for the other ways your body fuels its efforts. Anaerobic glycolocis is a fairly fast process but it also burns out quickly so it's good for efforts lasting between 30 seconds and 2 minutes or so. Beyond that it just runs out of steam and you drop back to slower but longer lasting methods of turning stored energy into power.

If you sustain a slightly easier but still fairly intense effort for at least two and a half minutes your body can start to use the high end of its aerobic energy delivery system. At these durations it will still be converting glycogen to power but will need a lot of oxygen to burn it aerobically. Actually it needs a whole lot of O2 at the top of the aerobic range and that's why this is VO2 Max range. You're processing as much O2 as your body can take in, combining it with glycogen and producing power. Think of the first two minutes of these intervals as priming the pump or getting this energy delivery system up and running. The point of 3 to 5 minute efforts is to get the pump primed and then actually get some work out of that system. Most folks can only use this system for 5 to 8 minutes before it runs out of steam and you need to drop down another notch to yet another slower but longer lasting system.

Drop down into your core aerobic energy delivery mode or threshold work and you're using a bit less O2 so your breathing is more controllable and you're burning a mixture of glycogen and stored fats. Again it's a slightly different flavor of energy production and although it doesn't work as quickly(delivered power is lower) you can sustain it much longer. It also takes a while to prime up this system, somewhere between 7 and 8 minutes so these longer threshold efforts should be maintained for at least 10 minutes to get some training benefit and longer is better. That's why the 2x20 threshold blocks are so popular, they're long enough to get well past the 8 minute initial priming but not so long that you can't focus from beginning to end.

The key thing here is that training to be fast on the bike is all about how well you deliver stored energy to your muscles and how well those muscles convert that energy to power. It has almost nothing to do with strength in the weight lifting sense for healthy adults. In that screenshot I attached for a 20 minute effort my average pedal torque was 260 lb-in or roughly 38 pounds per pedal stroke with my 172.5mm cranks. That was what it took me to produce 278 watts. If I were able to sustain a world class 450 watts for that duration(I can't obviously) I would still only need roughly 61 pounds per pedal stroke. Well most healthy untrained adults who don't even own a bike could pump out endless one legged 61 pound leg presses if you gave them all day to do it. But very few could do those leg presses 90 to 100 times a minute for an hour straight. The point is, it's not about how strong your muscles are as in how much dead weight you can squat. It's about how well you can continue to produce power with rapid muscular contractions and that translates to how well you can supply fuel to your muscles and how effective your muscles are at converting that fuel to power.

That's what we're training, those specific energy delivery systems and to do so we've gotta target the systems most important to our efforts and train them to be very efficient. Target the right intensities for the right durations and you're on your way.

Good luck,
Dave