Who is at fault and how should it be dealt?

Artoi

Excuse the cross-posting but I think this could be interesting for
discussion.

Came across this hypothetical scenario on a cycling forum...

Several riders are returning from their weekend club ride and are riding
together in a bunch. One cyclist signals turning and another cyclist,
riding second wheel in the group, looks back to wave him an extended
farewell. In the meanwhile, the cyclist at the head of the bunch signals
stopping at a congested round-about, slowing to an almost complete stop.
the cyclist waving his mate fails to heed the signal, and the loud
warnings of others behind him, and collides with the cyclist at the head
of the bunch writing-off his expensive carbon fiber frame.

Who is at fault here? If you were the cyclist with the wrecked frame,
what would you be thinking? What would you expect of the rider who
rammed you from behind?
--

Steven Bornfeld

Artoi wrote:
> Excuse the cross-posting but I think this could be interesting for
> discussion.
>
> Came across this hypothetical scenario on a cycling forum...
>
> Several riders are returning from their weekend club ride and are riding
> together in a bunch. One cyclist signals turning and another cyclist,
> riding second wheel in the group, looks back to wave him an extended
> farewell. In the meanwhile, the cyclist at the head of the bunch signals
> stopping at a congested round-about, slowing to an almost complete stop.
> the cyclist waving his mate fails to heed the signal, and the loud
> warnings of others behind him, and collides with the cyclist at the head
> of the bunch writing-off his expensive carbon fiber frame.
>
> Who is at fault here? If you were the cyclist with the wrecked frame,
> what would you be thinking? What would you expect of the rider who
> rammed you from behind?
> --


Hypothetical, of course. I've never seen anyone "fail to heed".

Steve (no waving either)

Artoi

In article <13k8ee5aj3sr8f6@corp.supernews.com>,
Steven Bornfeld <dentaltwinmung@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Artoi wrote:
> > Excuse the cross-posting but I think this could be interesting for
> > discussion.
> >
> > Came across this hypothetical scenario on a cycling forum...
> >
> > Several riders are returning from their weekend club ride and are riding
> > together in a bunch. One cyclist signals turning and another cyclist,
> > riding second wheel in the group, looks back to wave him an extended
> > farewell. In the meanwhile, the cyclist at the head of the bunch signals
> > stopping at a congested round-about, slowing to an almost complete stop.
> > the cyclist waving his mate fails to heed the signal, and the loud
> > warnings of others behind him, and collides with the cyclist at the head
> > of the bunch writing-off his expensive carbon fiber frame.
> >
> > Who is at fault here? If you were the cyclist with the wrecked frame,
> > what would you be thinking? What would you expect of the rider who
> > rammed you from behind?
> > --

> Hypothetical, of course. I've never seen anyone "fail to heed".

Well, let's just discuss it as a hypothetical...
--

Pete

Artoi wrote:
> Excuse the cross-posting but I think this could be interesting for
> discussion.
>
> Came across this hypothetical scenario on a cycling forum...
>
> Several riders are returning from their weekend club ride and are
> riding together in a bunch. One cyclist signals turning and another
> cyclist, riding second wheel in the group, looks back to wave him an
> extended farewell. In the meanwhile, the cyclist at the head of the
> bunch signals stopping at a congested round-about, slowing to an
> almost complete stop. the cyclist waving his mate fails to heed the
> signal, and the loud warnings of others behind him, and collides with
> the cyclist at the head of the bunch writing-off his expensive carbon
> fiber frame.
>
> Who is at fault here? If you were the cyclist with the wrecked frame,
> what would you be thinking? What would you expect of the rider who
> rammed you from behind?

You'd have to be doing something really odd there. You aren't likely
to wreck a frame by crashing into it from behind at a slow speed
(wheels maybe, but frame?)- so unless this guy looking behind is
cruising down a hill at 50kph towards a busy roundabout while looking
back (which is really stupid), it doesn't seem likely in the first
place.

That said, if you aren't looking where you're going and you hit
something, you're pretty much automatically at fault, especially if
what you hit is in the right place. So - IMO, guy at the front gets a
new bike (in the same price range, not taking the piss with a 5 grand
colnago) and the guy not looking pays.

Pete

amit.ghosh@gmail.com

On Nov 21, 9:30 am, Pete <petersr1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Artoi wrote:
> > Excuse the cross-posting but I think this could be interesting for
> > discussion.
>
> > Came across this hypothetical scenario on a cycling forum...
>
> > Several riders are returning from their weekend club ride and are
> > riding together in a bunch. One cyclist signals turning and another
> > cyclist, riding second wheel in the group, looks back to wave him an
> > extended farewell. In the meanwhile, the cyclist at the head of the
> > bunch signals stopping at a congested round-about, slowing to an
> > almost complete stop. the cyclist waving his mate fails to heed the
> > signal, and the loud warnings of others behind him, and collides with
> > the cyclist at the head of the bunch writing-off his expensive carbon
> > fiber frame.
>
> > Who is at fault here? If you were the cyclist with the wrecked frame,
> > what would you be thinking? What would you expect of the rider who
> > rammed you from behind?
>
> You'd have to be doing something really odd there. You aren't likely
> to wreck a frame by crashing into it from behind at a slow speed
> (wheels maybe, but frame?)-

a digression, but i've seen exactly that. at a race a rider crossed
the line and stopped abruptly and a rider rammed him from behind
breaking his frame (a giant TCR carbon).

dustoyevsky@mac.com

On Nov 21, 7:39 am, Artoi <ar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Excuse the cross-posting but I think this could be interesting for
> discussion.
>
> Came across this hypothetical scenario on a cycling forum...
>
> Several riders are returning from their weekend club ride and are riding
> together in a bunch. One cyclist signals turning and another cyclist,
> riding second wheel in the group, looks back to wave him an extended
> farewell. In the meanwhile, the cyclist at the head of the bunch signals
> stopping at a congested round-about, slowing to an almost complete stop.
> the cyclist waving his mate fails to heed the signal, and the loud
> warnings of others behind him, and collides with the cyclist at the head
> of the bunch writing-off his expensive carbon fiber frame.
>
> Who is at fault here? If you were the cyclist with the wrecked frame,
> what would you be thinking? What would you expect of the rider who
> rammed you from behind?

Don't look back. Glance. Real quick.

Because otherwise, you'll run into someone or something-- it's a
setup; nothing ever happens until you have your head turned.

What kind of new frame are you going to get <g>? --D-y

derFahrer@gmail.com

> If you were the cyclist with the wrecked frame,
> what would you be thinking?

I'd be thinking, what was I thinking riding with these f'ing wankers?

William Asher

derFahrer@gmail.com wrote:

>
>> If you were the cyclist with the wrecked frame,
>> what would you be thinking?
>
> I'd be thinking, what was I thinking riding with these f'ing wankers?

But most people think that even if they don't end up with a wrecked frame.

--
Bill Asher

OzCableguy

"Artoi" <artoi@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:artoi-C045DA.00393122112007@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Excuse the cross-posting but I think this could be interesting for
> discussion.
>
> Came across this hypothetical scenario on a cycling forum...
>
> Several riders are returning from their weekend club ride and are riding
> together in a bunch. One cyclist signals turning and another cyclist,
> riding second wheel in the group, looks back to wave him an extended
> farewell. In the meanwhile, the cyclist at the head of the bunch signals
> stopping at a congested round-about, slowing to an almost complete stop.
> the cyclist waving his mate fails to heed the signal, and the loud
> warnings of others behind him, and collides with the cyclist at the head
> of the bunch writing-off his expensive carbon fiber frame.
>
> Who is at fault here? If you were the cyclist with the wrecked frame,
> what would you be thinking? What would you expect of the rider who
> rammed you from behind?
> --

Hell no. Any official or unoffical bunch ride has to be a case of ride at
your own risk or it loses all of its appeal and is no fun anymore. There's
always a risk of accident, even accidents caused by stupidity, in any type
of performance or bunch ride and if you can't live with that ride solo, buy
a cheaper bike and wear a full suit of armour lined with cotton wool.

Tend to their wounds and assist in getting your fallen comrade's bike up &
running again (or help guard it while someone fetches a vehicle to collect
it) but forget this financial liability nonsense. I think that would be an
appalling thing to happen to the sport.

Perhaps the answer here is insurance. Can you get insurance for this type of
thing?

--
www.ozcableguy.com
www.oztechnologies.com

Duncan

On Nov 22, 10:19 am, "OzCableguy" <ozcable...@NOSPAMhotmail.com>
wrote:
> "Artoi" <ar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:artoi-C045DA.00393122112007@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
>
>
> > Excuse the cross-posting but I think this could be interesting for
> > discussion.
>
> > Came across this hypothetical scenario on a cycling forum...
>
> > Several riders are returning from their weekend club ride and are riding
> > together in a bunch. One cyclist signals turning and another cyclist,
> > riding second wheel in the group, looks back to wave him an extended
> > farewell. In the meanwhile, the cyclist at the head of the bunch signals
> > stopping at a congested round-about, slowing to an almost complete stop.
> > the cyclist waving his mate fails to heed the signal, and the loud
> > warnings of others behind him, and collides with the cyclist at the head
> > of the bunch writing-off his expensive carbon fiber frame.
>
> > Who is at fault here? If you were the cyclist with the wrecked frame,
> > what would you be thinking? What would you expect of the rider who
> > rammed you from behind?
> > --
>
> Hell no. Any official or unoffical bunch ride has to be a case of ride at
> your own risk or it loses all of its appeal and is no fun anymore. There's
> always a risk of accident, even accidents caused by stupidity, in any type
> of performance or bunch ride and if you can't live with that ride solo, buy
> a cheaper bike and wear a full suit of armour lined with cotton wool.
>
> Tend to their wounds and assist in getting your fallen comrade's bike up &
> running again (or help guard it while someone fetches a vehicle to collect
> it) but forget this financial liability nonsense. I think that would be an
> appalling thing to happen to the sport.

Surely you're joking?

It is fine to live-and-let live for minor accidents. Unfortunately,
not all accidents are so minor, or cause relatively little damage.

> Perhaps the answer here is insurance. Can you get insurance for this type of
> thing?

If you aren't at least third-party insured and you are racing (or
commuting), you're just being naive..

Low cost insurance (such as the standard BNSW membership) covers the
guilty party (in this case, the guy behind) for this sort of thing:

<snip>
POLICY INFORMATION

Insured:
Members of Bicycle New South Wales Incorporated

Scope of Cover:
Members of Bicycle New South Wales legal liability to compensate third
parties with regard to Personal Injury/Death and/or Property Damage as
a result of an occurrence arising from the bicycle riding activities
of the member.

Limit of Liability
$20,000,000 any one occurrence and in the aggregate

Deductible (excess)
$1,000 Each & Every Incident
<snip>

Duncan

On Nov 22, 11:22 am, SLAVE of THE STATE <gwh...@ti.com> wrote:
> There is no way a socially responsible individual can replace the
> carbon frame with another carbon frame. Since everything in the world
> is about global warming, the carbon footprint must reduced at all
> costs. Carbon frame: a no-no. Therefore, I suggest a Ti or Al frame
> replacement. (Steel has carbon in it. Terrible.)

But think of all that carbon that can be sequestered in a frame
build.. never to be made into CO2

Theo Bekkers

Duncan wrote:
> On Nov 22, 11:22 am, SLAVE of THE STATE <gwh...@ti.com> wrote:
>> There is no way a socially responsible individual can replace the
>> carbon frame with another carbon frame. Since everything in the
>> world is about global warming, the carbon footprint must reduced at
>> all costs. Carbon frame: a no-no. Therefore, I suggest a Ti or Al
>> frame replacement. (Steel has carbon in it. Terrible.)
>
> But think of all that carbon that can be sequestered in a frame
> build.. never to be made into CO2

Mmmm, and how much coke is burnt to make steel?

Theo

In article <artoi-C045DA.00393122112007@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
artoi@hotmail.com says...

> Several riders are returning from their weekend club ride and are riding
> together in a bunch. One cyclist signals turning and another cyclist,
> riding second wheel in the group, looks back to wave him an extended
> farewell. In the meanwhile, the cyclist at the head of the bunch signals
> stopping at a congested round-about, slowing to an almost complete stop.
> the cyclist waving his mate fails to heed the signal, and the loud
> warnings of others behind him, and collides with the cyclist at the head
> of the bunch writing-off his expensive carbon fiber frame.

Assuming this is a ride on an ordinary public road, not a closed course,
not an organized event, the rider who failed to stop is very likely at
fault, given the information provided. From the description, he's lucky
he had an accident with the lead cyclist, rather than blindly riding
into traffic in a congested roundabout, adding injuries to his failure
to yield.

At least in the U.S., the negligent rider's homeowner's or renter's
insurance policy probably includes personal liability coverage that
would usually apply to an accident other than a motor vehicle accident.

--
josh@phred.org is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html>

Mark & Steven Bornfeld

SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:
> There is no way a socially responsible individual can replace the
> carbon frame with another carbon frame. Since everything in the world
> is about global warming, the carbon footprint must reduced at all
> costs. Carbon frame: a no-no. Therefore, I suggest a Ti or Al frame
> replacement. (Steel has carbon in it. Terrible.)
>
>
>
>
>


Yes it does:

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconVal...els/allst1.html

Steve


--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001