are shoes worth it?

imagineero@hotmail.com

Hi All,
Recently back in the saddle after about 15 years of wallowing in the
swaps of slovenliness, I find myself able to afford a better bike than
i ever could as a young whippersnapper, but much to my surprise when i
mounted the beast, found myself not quite up to the task!

I had a coupld of semi-nice road bikes as a teenager and rode
average10-15k/day and weekly bigger rides up to 60k. The new (second
hand) acquisition is a TCR 2 with something and something or other.
Rather than put the bars all the way down and the seat all the way up
as was my habit in past, I find that im unable to reach them, so went
the other way.

One thing the bike came with which i have never had before are clip on
shoes and look pedals (really, who would call a brand 'LOOK', I was so
embarassed I covered over the lettering with electrical tape. i dont
want people looking at all!). The guy who sold me the bike happened
to have the same size of foot, so they do fit, but i find them fairly
uncomfortable! And i say this as a guy who was quite into my rock
climbing for 10 years.....

They are not super super tight, but about the right level of tightness
i'd expect for a shoe of this type. Tighter that is, than sneakers.
When i ride though, i find almost all the strain is taken up by the
outside of my feet, at the front. The result is that my 2 or 3
outside toes on each foot eventually get tingly then a bit numb. i
also find that they make me work muscles in my leg that i'd rather
not!

When riding with sneakers, I tend to put the peddle somewhere around
the middle of my foot. I sometimes move to the front, but for just
riding around, the middle is good for me.

Is there something i am missing? The seller of the bike told me it's
worth using clipons because you get a lot more power (am i intended to
pull *up* as well as push down?) but i find myself mostly getting less
pleasure. Im not intending to ever race, I just like to go for a
ride. Should i persist, or go back to normal peddles?

Thanks
Shaun

Gettamulla Tupya

On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 02:42:04 -0800 (PST), imagineero@hotmail.com wrote:

> Is there something i am missing? The seller of the bike told me it's
> worth using clipons because you get a lot more power (am i intended to
> pull *up* as well as push down?) but i find myself mostly getting less
> pleasure. Im not intending to ever race, I just like to go for a
> ride. Should i persist, or go back to normal peddles?

Real mean wear Blunnies.

Boostland

<imagineero@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fb5879ba-27f9-477c-8801-4c319baf4e13@o10g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Hi All,
> Recently back in the saddle after about 15 years of wallowing in the
> swaps of slovenliness, I find myself able to afford a better bike than
> i ever could as a young whippersnapper, but much to my surprise when i
> mounted the beast, found myself not quite up to the task!
>
> I had a coupld of semi-nice road bikes as a teenager and rode
> average10-15k/day and weekly bigger rides up to 60k. The new (second
> hand) acquisition is a TCR 2 with something and something or other.
> Rather than put the bars all the way down and the seat all the way up
> as was my habit in past, I find that im unable to reach them, so went
> the other way.
>
> One thing the bike came with which i have never had before are clip on
> shoes and look pedals (really, who would call a brand 'LOOK', I was so
> embarassed I covered over the lettering with electrical tape. i dont
> want people looking at all!). The guy who sold me the bike happened
> to have the same size of foot, so they do fit, but i find them fairly
> uncomfortable! And i say this as a guy who was quite into my rock
> climbing for 10 years.....
>
> They are not super super tight, but about the right level of tightness
> i'd expect for a shoe of this type. Tighter that is, than sneakers.
> When i ride though, i find almost all the strain is taken up by the
> outside of my feet, at the front. The result is that my 2 or 3
> outside toes on each foot eventually get tingly then a bit numb. i
> also find that they make me work muscles in my leg that i'd rather
> not!
>
> When riding with sneakers, I tend to put the peddle somewhere around
> the middle of my foot. I sometimes move to the front, but for just
> riding around, the middle is good for me.
>
> Is there something i am missing? The seller of the bike told me it's
> worth using clipons because you get a lot more power (am i intended to
> pull *up* as well as push down?) but i find myself mostly getting less
> pleasure. Im not intending to ever race, I just like to go for a
> ride. Should i persist, or go back to normal peddles?
>
> Thanks
> Shaun

Yes bike shoes can be uncomfortable for a while, if the cleats are in the
wrong position for you then they might be even more so.

You need to get them in the correct position for you in the forward / aft as
well as the heel in toe in heel out toe out, I have a size 48 shoe and tend
to have the pedal axle behind the ball of my foot, riders with smaller feet
seem to have it much closer to the ball of the foot.

To get the toe in toe out heel in heel out correct, stand on the ground bare
foot with your feet in their natural position and jump up into the air and
land, take note of where your feet are pointing when you land, if the toes
are pointing in then make your cycling cleats roughly the same amount in, if
pointing out make them roughly the same pointing out.

My feet point out but I can't make my shoes point out to the extent that
they are when I land as my heels would foul the rear chain stays even more
than they do now, so I have to compromise for clearance.

After a while you will find you get used to them and they get used to you
(like a new pair of shoes will be better after some use).

You will find once you master the art of pulling up and pushing down at the
same time riding up hills and putting on a spurt of speed will come a lot
easier, it also works more of the muscles in your legs so you don't end up
with really unbalanced leg muscles.

Zebee Johnstone

In aus.bicycle on Wed, 27 Feb 2008 02:42:04 -0800 (PST)
imagineero@hotmail.com <imagineero@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Is there something i am missing? The seller of the bike told me it's
> worth using clipons because you get a lot more power (am i intended to
> pull *up* as well as push down?) but i find myself mostly getting less
> pleasure. Im not intending to ever race, I just like to go for a
> ride. Should i persist, or go back to normal peddles?

If you move your feet in a circle, you get more bang for your movement
buck.

The idea is that at the bottom of the stroke you move your foot as
though you are scraping something off the bottom of the shoe. As you
do that you impart force to the pedal, keep that tension on the pedal
as the foot moves up and then smoothly transfer that pull to a push as
the pedal reaches the top, "scraping" again.

Once you do that as a matter of course, the speed picks up easily and
with less pushing effort. You get more go for less effort.

However, if you really don't care for the more go, then use platform
pedals. Ain't no law

I found that using old fashioned toeclips back when I rode uprights
made so much difference to my comfort and riding ability that I hated
riding without them. You may find them a good compromise, with or
without straps. YOu don't need special shoes, and you get the foot
positioning and ability to pedal in a circle to some extent.

(Now I ride a recumbent I can ride without clipping in but it's not as
comfortable or as fast, and feet coming off is worse than when it
happens on an upright)

I slide the cleats way back in my Shimano sandals (which fit my feet
much better than any cycling shoes) so I can have the pedals closer
to the middle of my foot. This is important on a 'bent to stop the
feeling called "hotfoot".

Zebee

TimC

On 2008-02-27, imagineero@hotmail.com (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> They are not super super tight, but about the right level of tightness
> i'd expect for a shoe of this type. Tighter that is, than sneakers.
> When i ride though, i find almost all the strain is taken up by the
> outside of my feet, at the front. The result is that my 2 or 3
> outside toes on each foot eventually get tingly then a bit numb. i
> also find that they make me work muscles in my leg that i'd rather
> not!

Wrong shaped shoe perhaps (too narrow at the toes?). Ideally, you'd
try several shoes in the shop, just like normal shoes, and find the
comfortable ones. Even more ideally, you'd then try them on the bike.
In practice... ideals get thrown out of the door.

> When riding with sneakers, I tend to put the peddle somewhere around
> the middle of my foot. I sometimes move to the front, but for just
> riding around, the middle is good for me.

Ball of the foot, not middle. Just it's harder to do that without
clips or cleats.

> Is there something i am missing? The seller of the bike told me it's
> worth using clipons because you get a lot more power (am i intended to
> pull *up* as well as push down?) but i find myself mostly getting less
> pleasure. Im not intending to ever race, I just like to go for a
> ride. Should i persist, or go back to normal peddles?

They're well worth it after you get used to them (good shoes, anyway).

It's not really for pulling up (studies (Hi Bleve! I'm too lazy to
look up the reference right now!) have shown pulling up as opposed to
just floating the weight only counteracting gravity, causes your
physiology to become less efficient), it's more for scraping across
the bottom and top. But even more, it's so you can simply not slip
off the pedals when you become (naturally with practice) more powerful
and are pedalling at > 90rpm cadence (flats are OK when you're only
doodling along at 40rpm).

I don't go back even when I go to the shops. I put the same pedals
and cleats on both bikes and shoes, so I can take either bike to go to
the shops, and just slip on some mountain bike style shoes so I can
walk around and not slip on the lino. I take my road shoes to work so
I can ride home with shoes that are lighter and airier.

--
TimC
"The Write Many, Read Never drive. For those people that don't know
their system has a /dev/null already." -- Rik Steenwinkel, singing
the praises of 8mm Exabytes

EuanB

There seems to be some confusion over what proper pedalling technique entails.

This document is a good summary: http://www.topbike.com.au/pdfs/cols...uly_aug2002.pdf

BT Humble

Zebee wrote:
> I found that using old fashioned toeclips back when I rode uprights
> made so much difference to my comfort and riding ability that I hated
> riding without them. You may find them a good compromise, with or
> without straps. YOu don't need special shoes, and you get the foot
> positioning and ability to pedal in a circle to some extent.

I like these plastic "strapless toe clips" that bolt onto platform
pedals, here's a pic:

http://www.smallsolar.org/BTH/budge...l.htm#28jan2008

I don't much like the "strappy" ones while I'm commuting, where I may
have to stop and put a foot down a dozen times during the trip.


BTH

Theo Bekkers

BT Humble wrote:

> I like these plastic "strapless toe clips" that bolt onto platform
> pedals, here's a pic:
>
> http://www.smallsolar.org/BTH/budge...l.htm#28jan2008
>
> I don't much like the "strappy" ones while I'm commuting, where I may
> have to stop and put a foot down a dozen times during the trip.

I prefer strapped toe clips. Loosening the straps is just a habit you get
into.

Theo

Duncan

As someone who uses their bike purely for commuting, and is not really
worried too much about efficiency (though it does help), I find clips
are really good for staying connected with the bike, if that makes any
sense.

I have no problems clipping in and out when required in traffic
etc. I'd have a real problem with toe straps. I do use (mtb) SPD's
on double-sided pedals, though. You can just mash your foot into them
and not have to worry about flipping them the right way when taking
off. There are a couple of designs that allow this (eggbeaters come
to mind).

It sounds like your shoes are the wrong size (too tight around the
toes?). It sounds like you're not into racer-chic, so go have a look
at some of the mountain-bike style shoes; many are more like runners
and tend to be cheaper, too.

duncan

Zebee Johnstone

In aus.bicycle on Thu, 28 Feb 2008 06:58:30 +0900
Theo Bekkers <tbekkers@bekkers.com.au> wrote:
> BT Humble wrote:
>> I don't much like the "strappy" ones while I'm commuting, where I may
>> have to stop and put a foot down a dozen times during the trip.
>
> I prefer strapped toe clips. Loosening the straps is just a habit you get
> into.

I didn't tighten the straps that much. I could get the foot out for
the stops on the daily commute without a problem.

Zebee

lemmiwinks.au@gmail.com

On Feb 28, 8:36 am, EuanB <EuanB.35g...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> There seems to be some confusion over what proper pedalling technique
> entails.
>
> This document is a good summary:http://www.topbike.com.au/pdfs/cols...uly_aug2002.pdf
>
> --
> EuanB

That is a good article, thanks!

lemmiwinks.au@gmail.com

On Feb 27, 9:42 pm, imagine...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Hi All,
> Recently back in the saddle after about 15 years of wallowing in the
> swaps of slovenliness, I find myself able to afford a better bike than
> i ever could as a young whippersnapper, but much to my surprise when i
> mounted the beast, found myself not quite up to the task!
>
> I had a coupld of semi-nice road bikes as a teenager and rode
> average10-15k/day and weekly bigger rides up to 60k. The new (second
> hand) acquisition is a TCR 2 with something and something or other.
> Rather than put the bars all the way down and the seat all the way up
> as was my habit in past, I find that im unable to reach them, so went
> the other way.
>
> One thing the bike came with which i have never had before are clip on
> shoes and look pedals (really, who would call a brand 'LOOK', I was so
> embarassed I covered over the lettering with electrical tape. i dont
> want people looking at all!). The guy who sold me the bike happened
> to have the same size of foot, so they do fit, but i find them fairly
> uncomfortable! And i say this as a guy who was quite into my rock
> climbing for 10 years.....
>
> They are not super super tight, but about the right level of tightness
> i'd expect for a shoe of this type. Tighter that is, than sneakers.
> When i ride though, i find almost all the strain is taken up by the
> outside of my feet, at the front. The result is that my 2 or 3
> outside toes on each foot eventually get tingly then a bit numb. i
> also find that they make me work muscles in my leg that i'd rather
> not!
>
> When riding with sneakers, I tend to put the peddle somewhere around
> the middle of my foot. I sometimes move to the front, but for just
> riding around, the middle is good for me.

I use cheap K-mart "Alloy cage MTB pedals" with plastic toe clips and
straps, though I keep the straps loose. I'd suggest a pedal+toe clip
combo might be good for you as it will tend to keep the ball of your
foot over the pedal spindle, pedaling from the arch of the foot is not
what I'd consider good (though keep in mind I'm no expert). I have a
few pairs of sneakers but I noticed that the newest ones (I think
they're a "cross trainer") have a very stiff sole with hardly any flex
in it. When I ride wearing those shoes I can really feel the
difference in power transfer.

> Is there something i am missing? The seller of the bike told me it's
> worth using clipons because you get a lot more power (am i intended to
> pull *up* as well as push down?) but i find myself mostly getting less
> pleasure.

Well that's the key IMO. You should be enjoying yourself! Make
appropriate changes such that discomfort goes down and pleasure goes
up :-)

Bleve

On Feb 27, 10:52 pm, TimC <tconn...@no.spam.accepted.here-
astro.swin.edu.au> wrote:
> On 2008-02-27, imagine...@hotmail.com (aka Bruce)
> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
>
> > They are not super super tight, but about the right level of tightness
> > i'd expect for a shoe of this type. Tighter that is, than sneakers.
> > When i ride though, i find almost all the strain is taken up by the
> > outside of my feet, at the front. The result is that my 2 or 3
> > outside toes on each foot eventually get tingly then a bit numb. i
> > also find that they make me work muscles in my leg that i'd rather
> > not!
>
> Wrong shaped shoe perhaps (too narrow at the toes?). Ideally, you'd
> try several shoes in the shop, just like normal shoes, and find the
> comfortable ones. Even more ideally, you'd then try them on the bike.
> In practice... ideals get thrown out of the door.
>
> > When riding with sneakers, I tend to put the peddle somewhere around
> > the middle of my foot. I sometimes move to the front, but for just
> > riding around, the middle is good for me.
>
> Ball of the foot, not middle. Just it's harder to do that without
> clips or cleats.
>
> > Is there something i am missing? The seller of the bike told me it's
> > worth using clipons because you get a lot more power (am i intended to
> > pull *up* as well as push down?) but i find myself mostly getting less
> > pleasure. Im not intending to ever race, I just like to go for a
> > ride. Should i persist, or go back to normal peddles?
>
> They're well worth it after you get used to them (good shoes, anyway).
>
> It's not really for pulling up (studies (Hi Bleve! I'm too lazy to
> look up the reference right now!)

One elephant stamp for Tim