Chain idler efficiency - roller vs. toothed

TandemFan

We have a Rans Screamer tandem and there are a few idler rollers for
the chain. An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250:
http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2..._Code=IdlersALL

They have a long blurb on why they are better:

http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2..._Code=IdlersALL

What's the scoop? Does it make any difference at all, or are we going
to go faster?

Thanks!

Mark

TandemFan wrote:
> We have a Rans Screamer tandem and there are a few idler rollers for
> the chain. An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250:
> http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2..._Code=IdlersALL
>
> They have a long blurb on why they are better:
>
> http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2..._Code=IdlersALL
>
> What's the scoop? Does it make any difference at all, or are we going
> to go faster?
>
> Thanks!

May be valuable, I dunno, but this sentence on their site was a red flag
for me:

"Idlers are the bread and butter of TerraCycle"

Judging from the price, I can see that. Do they mean it solely in the
positive way, or is it a Freudian slip?

Mark J.

mike.a.schwab@gmail.com

On Apr 25, 5:06*am, TandemFan <Tandem...@tandems.com> wrote:
> We have a Rans Screamer tandem and there are a few idler rollers for
> the chain. *An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250:http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2...n=PROD&Store_Co...
>
> They have a long blurb on why they are better:
>
> http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2...n=CTGY&Store_Co...
>
> What's the scoop? *Does it make any difference at all, or are we going
> to go faster?
>
> Thanks!

I got one of their pulleys for my Burley Django, because the factory
one wore through in the middle. Good material for a long lifetime,
cheap material for more frequent replacements.

I would think high quality bearings in the jockey pulleys in the rear
derailer would make a bit of a difference.

Leo Lichtman

"TandemFan" wrote: (clip) Does it make any difference at all, or are we
going
> to go faster?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Take $250 ot of your pocket, and the weight reduction will actually give you
the same speed increase*. A LOT more if you do in in small change.
__________________
*We are talking about a small change, aren't we? '-)

carlfogel@comcast.net

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 06:06:14 -0400, TandemFan <TandemFan@tandems.com>
wrote:

>We have a Rans Screamer tandem and there are a few idler rollers for
>the chain. An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250:
>http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2..._Code=IdlersALL
>
>They have a long blurb on why they are better:
>
>http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2..._Code=IdlersALL
>
>What's the scoop? Does it make any difference at all, or are we going
>to go faster?
>
>Thanks!

Dear TF,

Note the absence of any figures to back up the claims of significant
power losses.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Tom Sherman

TandemFan wrote:

[cross-posted to ARBR for Perry Butler's amusement]

> We have a R[ANS] Screamer tandem and there are a few idler rollers for
> the chain. An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250:
> http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2..._Code=IdlersALL
>
> They have a long blurb on why they are better:
>
> http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2..._Code=IdlersALL
>
> What's the scoop? Does it make any difference at all, or are we going
> to go faster?
>
Someone needs to tell Pat Franz that it is "RANS" and not "Rans".

While the manufacturers in question are trying to meet a price point for
their bicycles, they are not going to be putting junk chain idlers on
their bicycles [1]. Therefore, while there is room for improvement, the
gains will likely be small as drive-train friction is a small component
of total non-conservative losses, even on a recumbent with a complicated
chain-line.

If you want to make a RANS Screamer a lot faster than stock, put a front
fairing (Zzipper or Mueller) and a bodysock on the bike.

[1] Unlike some defunct manufacturers of the past.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Jon Bendtsen

Tom Sherman wrote:
> TandemFan wrote:
>
> [cross-posted to ARBR for Perry Butler's amusement]
>
>> We have a R[ANS] Screamer tandem and there are a few idler rollers for
>> the chain. An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250:
>> http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2..._Code=IdlersALL
>>
>>
>> They have a long blurb on why they are better:
>>
>> http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2..._Code=IdlersALL
>>
>>
>> What's the scoop? Does it make any difference at all, or are we going
>> to go faster?
>>
> Someone needs to tell Pat Franz that it is "RANS" and not "Rans".
>
> While the manufacturers in question are trying to meet a price point for
> their bicycles, they are not going to be putting junk chain idlers on
> their bicycles [1]. Therefore, while there is room for improvement, the
> gains will likely be small as drive-train friction is a small component
> of total non-conservative losses, even on a recumbent with a complicated
> chain-line.

Why not avoid idlers and recumbents with complicated chain-lines?

It might not (yet) be possible with a tandem, but for a single
rider bike, cruzbike offers a short normal chain-line.


JonB

Tom Sherman

Jon Bendtsen wrote:
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>> TandemFan wrote:
>>
>> [cross-posted to ARBR for Perry Butler's amusement]
>>
>>> We have a R[ANS] Screamer tandem and there are a few idler rollers for
>>> the chain. An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250:
>>> http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2..._Code=IdlersALL
>>>
>>>
>>> They have a long blurb on why they are better:
>>>
>>> http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2..._Code=IdlersALL
>>>
>>>
>>> What's the scoop? Does it make any difference at all, or are we going
>>> to go faster?
>>>
>> Someone needs to tell Pat Franz that it is "RANS" and not "Rans".
>>
>> While the manufacturers in question are trying to meet a price point
>> for their bicycles, they are not going to be putting junk chain idlers
>> on their bicycles [1]. Therefore, while there is room for improvement,
>> the gains will likely be small as drive-train friction is a small
>> component of total non-conservative losses, even on a recumbent with a
>> complicated chain-line.
>
> Why not avoid idlers and recumbents with complicated chain-lines?
>
> It might not (yet) be possible with a tandem, but for a single
> rider bike, cruzbike offers a short normal chain-line.
>
And introduces a whole other set of compromises in seating position,
weight distribution, traction on steep hills, etc. Long chain lines are
not necessarily a bad thing, as several issues with short chain lines go
away that make wide range gearing difficult.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Jon Bendtsen

Tom Sherman wrote:
> Jon Bendtsen wrote:
>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>> TandemFan wrote:
>>>
>>> [cross-posted to ARBR for Perry Butler's amusement]
>>>
>>>> We have a R[ANS] Screamer tandem and there are a few idler rollers for
>>>> the chain. An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250:
>>>> http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2..._Code=IdlersALL
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They have a long blurb on why they are better:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2..._Code=IdlersALL
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's the scoop? Does it make any difference at all, or are we going
>>>> to go faster?
>>>>
>>> Someone needs to tell Pat Franz that it is "RANS" and not "Rans".
>>>
>>> While the manufacturers in question are trying to meet a price point
>>> for their bicycles, they are not going to be putting junk chain
>>> idlers on their bicycles [1]. Therefore, while there is room for
>>> improvement, the gains will likely be small as drive-train friction
>>> is a small component of total non-conservative losses, even on a
>>> recumbent with a complicated chain-line.
>>
>> Why not avoid idlers and recumbents with complicated chain-lines?
>>
>> It might not (yet) be possible with a tandem, but for a single
>> rider bike, cruzbike offers a short normal chain-line.
>>
> And introduces a whole other set of compromises in seating position,

yeah, thats true.


> weight distribution, traction on steep hills, etc. Long chain lines are

actually i dont find the traction too bad up hill. But
we dont really have hills in Denmark, it's just flat flat
flat compared to other places.


> not necessarily a bad thing, as several issues with short chain lines go
> away that make wide range gearing difficult.

Why would short chainlines make wide range gearing difficult?

Adam Kadlubek

On 28 Kwi, 00:37, Jon Bendtsen <no...@example.com> wrote:
> Tom Sherman wrote:
> > Jon Bendtsen wrote:
> >> Tom Sherman wrote:
> >>> TandemFan wrote:
>
> >>> [cross-posted to ARBR for Perry Butler's amusement]
>
> >>>> We have a R[ANS] Screamer tandem and there are a few idler rollers for
> >>>> the chain. An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250:
> >>>>http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2...n=PROD&Store_Co...
>
> >>>> They have a long blurb on why they are better:
>
> >>>>http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2...n=CTGY&Store_Co...
>
> >>>> What's the scoop? Does it make any difference at all, or are we going
> >>>> to go faster?
>
> >>> Someone needs to tell Pat Franz that it is "RANS" and not "Rans".
>
> >>> While the manufacturers in question are trying to meet a price point
> >>> for their bicycles, they are not going to be putting junk chain
> >>> idlers on their bicycles [1]. Therefore, while there is room for
> >>> improvement, the gains will likely be small as drive-train friction
> >>> is a small component of total non-conservative losses, even on a
> >>> recumbent with a complicated chain-line.
>
> >> Why not avoid idlers and recumbents with complicated chain-lines?
>
> >> It might not (yet) be possible with a tandem, but for a single
> >> rider bike, cruzbike offers a short normal chain-line.
>
> > And introduces a whole other set of compromises in seating position,
>
> yeah, thats true.
>
> > weight distribution, traction on steep hills, etc. Long chain lines are
>
> actually i dont find the traction too bad up hill. But
> we dont really have hills in Denmark, it's just flat flat
> flat compared to other places.
>
> > not necessarily a bad thing, as several issues with short chain lines go
> > away that make wide range gearing difficult.
>
> Why would short chainlines make wide range gearing difficult?

Cross chain without guilt for instance.

--
Adam Kadlubek

Jon Bendtsen

Adam Kadlubek wrote:
> On 28 Kwi, 00:37, Jon Bendtsen <no...@example.com> wrote:
>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>> Jon Bendtsen wrote:
>>>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>>> TandemFan wrote:
>>>>> [cross-posted to ARBR for Perry Butler's amusement]
>>>>>> We have a R[ANS] Screamer tandem and there are a few idler rollers for
>>>>>> the chain. An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250:
>>>>>> http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2...n=PROD&Store_Co...
>>>>>> They have a long blurb on why they are better:
>>>>>> http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2...n=CTGY&Store_Co...
>>>>>> What's the scoop? Does it make any difference at all, or are we going
>>>>>> to go faster?
>>>>> Someone needs to tell Pat Franz that it is "RANS" and not "Rans".
>>>>> While the manufacturers in question are trying to meet a price point
>>>>> for their bicycles, they are not going to be putting junk chain
>>>>> idlers on their bicycles [1]. Therefore, while there is room for
>>>>> improvement, the gains will likely be small as drive-train friction
>>>>> is a small component of total non-conservative losses, even on a
>>>>> recumbent with a complicated chain-line.
>>>> Why not avoid idlers and recumbents with complicated chain-lines?
>>>> It might not (yet) be possible with a tandem, but for a single
>>>> rider bike, cruzbike offers a short normal chain-line.
>>> And introduces a whole other set of compromises in seating position,
>> yeah, thats true.
>>
>>> weight distribution, traction on steep hills, etc. Long chain lines are
>> actually i dont find the traction too bad up hill. But
>> we dont really have hills in Denmark, it's just flat flat
>> flat compared to other places.
>>
>>> not necessarily a bad thing, as several issues with short chain lines go
>>> away that make wide range gearing difficult.
>> Why would short chainlines make wide range gearing difficult?
>
> Cross chain without guilt for instance.

Then combine a rohloff/nuvinci + a schlumpf drive == 0 cross chain.
If normal bikes can live with some cross chain, so can a recumbent.



JonB

carlfogel@comcast.net

carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 06:06:14 -0400, TandemFan <TandemFan@tandems.com>
> wrote:
>
>> We have a Rans Screamer tandem and there are a few idler rollers for
>> the chain. An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250:
>> http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2..._Code=IdlersALL
>>
>> They have a long blurb on why they are better:
>>
>> http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2..._Code=IdlersALL
>>
>> What's the scoop? Does it make any difference at all, or are we going
>> to go faster?
>>
>> Thanks!
>
> Dear TF,
>
> Note the absence of any figures to back up the claims of significant
> power losses.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

test

Michael Press

In article <fv52ma$ur5$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
"carlfogel@comcast.net" <carlfogel@comcast.net> wrote:


[...]

> test

You flunked.

--
Michael Press

Tom Sherman

Jon Bendtsen wrote:
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>> [...]
>> not necessarily a bad thing, as several issues with short chain lines
>> go away that make wide range gearing difficult.
>
> Why would short chainlines make wide range gearing difficult?

Proper alignment between front chain wheels and rear sprockets becomes
more critical with a shorter chain line, which makes things more
difficult when using non-standard components.

A long chain line in combination with a idler tensioner (e.g. Easy
Racers) or a mid-drive can allow for chain wheel and sprocket
combinations that would not work on a short chain line unless custom
derailers (sic) were used.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful