Alfine setup questions

Ryan Cousineau

I've got a new Alfine drivetrain and I'm adding it to an existing bike
(a steel road bike with horizontal dropouts).

For reasons that are some combination of pragmatic, quixotic, and daft,
I'm contemplating setting up the hub so that instead of the hub's cable
attachment arm being roughly parallel to the chainstay, it would be
roughly parallel to the seatstay. Then I'll run the cable down the
seatstay using a full housing and some zip-ties. That orientation is
provided, BTW, by the anti-turn washers for vertical dropouts.

Is there any danger or detriment in this? As far as I can tell, the
cable doesn't get any closer to the cable and cog than it would in the
normal position: I'm using the Shimano cog with an integrated guard, too.

Bonus question: any nominations for a really cheap 700c/29er singlespeed
frame with disc mounts? I'm plotting fiendishly to move this project
into Phase II sometime in early Fall: Mud-cheating cyclocross cheater
bike, with disc brakes and the Alfine hub. The current cheapest nominee
seems to be an NYCBikes CrossSpeed II.

Plan B.i would be to not worry about the rear brake so much, and just
run a front disc on whatever old canti-post frame I can find.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing

Gary Young

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 05:47:25 +0000, Ryan Cousineau wrote:

> I've got a new Alfine drivetrain and I'm adding it to an existing bike
> (a steel road bike with horizontal dropouts).
>
> For reasons that are some combination of pragmatic, quixotic, and daft,
> I'm contemplating setting up the hub so that instead of the hub's cable
> attachment arm being roughly parallel to the chainstay, it would be
> roughly parallel to the seatstay. Then I'll run the cable down the
> seatstay using a full housing and some zip-ties. That orientation is
> provided, BTW, by the anti-turn washers for vertical dropouts.
>
> Is there any danger or detriment in this? As far as I can tell, the
> cable doesn't get any closer to the cable and cog than it would in the
> normal position: I'm using the Shimano cog with an integrated guard,
> too.
>
> Bonus question: any nominations for a really cheap 700c/29er singlespeed
> frame with disc mounts? I'm plotting fiendishly to move this project
> into Phase II sometime in early Fall: Mud-cheating cyclocross cheater
> bike, with disc brakes and the Alfine hub. The current cheapest nominee
> seems to be an NYCBikes CrossSpeed II.
>

Jenson has a $115 frame with an eccentric bottom-bracket:

http://www.jensonusa.com/store/prod...7Ebb+Frame.aspx

Do you know if the CrossSpeed II requires a suspension-corrected fork?
It's pretty amazing to find a frame with Rohloff dropouts for only $200.
Plus, you get to throw around this NYCBikes slogan:

"It's got chunks of lesser bikes in it's [sic] stool."

http://www.nycbikes.com/item.php?item_id=566

landotter

On Apr 30, 12:47 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've got a new Alfine drivetrain and I'm adding it to an existing bike
> (a steel road bike with horizontal dropouts).
>
> For reasons that are some combination of pragmatic, quixotic, and daft,
> I'm contemplating setting up the hub so that instead of the hub's cable
> attachment arm being roughly parallel to the chainstay, it would be
> roughly parallel to the seatstay. Then I'll run the cable down the
> seatstay using a full housing and some zip-ties. That orientation is
> provided, BTW, by the anti-turn washers for vertical dropouts.
>
> Is there any danger or detriment in this? As far as I can tell, the
> cable doesn't get any closer to the cable and cog than it would in the
> normal position: I'm using the Shimano cog with an integrated guard, too.

If it's the same concept as the 7, I believe you're good to go.

>
> Bonus question: any nominations for a really cheap 700c/29er singlespeed
> frame with disc mounts? I'm plotting fiendishly to move this project
> into Phase II sometime in early Fall: Mud-cheating cyclocross cheater
> bike, with disc brakes and the Alfine hub. The current cheapest nominee
> seems to be an NYCBikes CrossSpeed II.
>

Can't get cheaper than that, really.

> Plan B.i would be to not worry about the rear brake so much, and just
> run a front disc on whatever old canti-post frame I can find.
>

With road pull discs, see what Fate deals you. If you find a cool old
canti frame, run a retro looking Tektro CR720 on the rear and a cable
disc on the the front.

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On Apr 30, 7:47*am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Bonus question: any nominations for a really cheap 700c/29er singlespeed
> frame with disc mounts? I'm plotting fiendishly to move this project
> into Phase II sometime in early Fall: Mud-cheating cyclocross cheater
> bike, with disc brakes and the Alfine hub. The current cheapest nominee
> seems to be an NYCBikes CrossSpeed II.

Redline Monocog 29er perhaps isn't available as a frameset, but a
complete bike is about $400. Then you get a nice steel frameset and
all the parts. Just rims and tires let alone a fork would add up for
the NYC.

A quick google found the frameset alone for $175:

http://www.bikejerseys.com/mon29erframf.html

Joseph

landotter

On Apr 30, 6:40 am, Gary Young <garyyou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 05:47:25 +0000, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > I've got a new Alfine drivetrain and I'm adding it to an existing bike
> > (a steel road bike with horizontal dropouts).
>
> > For reasons that are some combination of pragmatic, quixotic, and daft,
> > I'm contemplating setting up the hub so that instead of the hub's cable
> > attachment arm being roughly parallel to the chainstay, it would be
> > roughly parallel to the seatstay. Then I'll run the cable down the
> > seatstay using a full housing and some zip-ties. That orientation is
> > provided, BTW, by the anti-turn washers for vertical dropouts.
>
> > Is there any danger or detriment in this? As far as I can tell, the
> > cable doesn't get any closer to the cable and cog than it would in the
> > normal position: I'm using the Shimano cog with an integrated guard,
> > too.
>
> > Bonus question: any nominations for a really cheap 700c/29er singlespeed
> > frame with disc mounts? I'm plotting fiendishly to move this project
> > into Phase II sometime in early Fall: Mud-cheating cyclocross cheater
> > bike, with disc brakes and the Alfine hub. The current cheapest nominee
> > seems to be an NYCBikes CrossSpeed II.
>
> Jenson has a $115 frame with an eccentric bottom-bracket:
>
> http://www.jensonusa.com/store/prod...7Ebb+Frame.aspx
>
> Do you know if the CrossSpeed II requires a suspension-corrected fork?
> It's pretty amazing to find a frame with Rohloff dropouts for only $200.
> Plus, you get to throw around this NYCBikes slogan:
>
> "It's got chunks of lesser bikes in it's [sic] stool."

Whoa, gnarly spelling!

Andre Jute

On Apr 30, 6:47*am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've got a new Alfine drivetrain and I'm adding it to an existing bike
> (a steel road bike with horizontal dropouts).
>
> For reasons that are some combination of pragmatic, quixotic, and daft,
> I'm contemplating setting up the hub so that instead of the hub's cable
> attachment arm being roughly parallel to the chainstay, it would be
> roughly parallel to the seatstay. Then I'll run the cable down the
> seatstay using a full housing and some zip-ties. That orientation is
> provided, BTW, by the anti-turn washers for vertical dropouts.
>
> Is there any danger or detriment in this? As far as I can tell, the
> cable doesn't get any closer to the cable and cog than it would in the
> normal position: I'm using the Shimano cog with an integrated guard, too.
>

There may be an advantage in doing what you plan because the gear
cable may be less exposed on the seatstay than on the chainstay;
though I don't do any offroading on my bikes, I notice that the roller
brake cable on the other chainstay gets caught on my foot every time I
operate the kickstand, and that on an open bike the gearchange cable
on the crank side chainstay would be very exposed to shrubbery and
stones and general mayhem.

On the other hand, with the chainstay cable run, the gearbox torque
arm if hit can just flex under the chainstay where it will meet no
resistance, whereas with your setup, if I visualise it right, it seems
very likely that even a light hit will bend the torque arm over the
chainstay -- ouch!

Make sure that the amount of bare cable exposed from the stop to the
gear operating nut is 101mm exactly; don't move that nut if you don't
have to. The dccument you want is numbered
6FD0A-SL-8S20_CJ-8S20-EN_v1_m56577569830605888.pdf
Look for it on the Paul Lange netsite.

Your description doesn't make clear if the different anti-turn washers
you intend to use will turn the entire hub counterclockwise to put the
detent for the actual operating nut on the cable at approximately 30
degrees below the horizontal through the axle, say at the 8 o'clock
position. If this is the case, it might get dirty rather more quickly
than in the "normal" position. Just something to remember for a
cleaning routine. Except for practising to take my Nexus-gearhub
wheels off just in case of a roadside emergency, and demonstrating to
other cyclists and family how quickly they can be removed and refitted
once you have practised the tricky (intricate, fiddly) bits, I haven't
actually removed mine, nor noticed that massive dirt gathers in the
works around that nut (in the "normal" 11 o'clock position on both my
Nexus bikes.

Finally, a tip about fitting the gearchange cable to the gearhub, the
dumbest bit of design I have ever seen Shimano, generally a very smart
design company, perpetrate. Pay close attention to the instruction to
twist the cable just so before you attempt to push the nut into the
detent; it is a fitting procedure in three dimensions, with a twist.
Nor will you manage it even if you follow the instruction perfectly
unless you have a 2mm Allen key; if you use the 2mm for nothing else
on your bike, carry it for just this purpose. You insert it in a handy
hole (possibly made by the designers for just this purpose), then drag
the entire rotating assembly around counterclockwise with the allen
key as your handle, and suddenly you have space for your fingers (or
needlenose pliers) to get the nut -- on the correctly twisted cable --
into the detent. It's incredibly simple if you have practised it; try
it for the first time beside a dark road when you have a flat, and
you'd better pray your mobile is charged up and you have cabfare home
because you will never get it right by trial and error.

HTH.

Andre Jute
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/...%20CYCLING.html

Ryan Cousineau

In article
<4484ce4a-8b9d-4d1a-bda1-0c2c02f48272@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
landotter <landotter@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Apr 30, 6:40 am, Gary Young <garyyou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 05:47:25 +0000, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > > I've got a new Alfine drivetrain and I'm adding it to an existing bike
> > > (a steel road bike with horizontal dropouts).
> >
> > > For reasons that are some combination of pragmatic, quixotic, and daft,
> > > I'm contemplating setting up the hub so that instead of the hub's cable
> > > attachment arm being roughly parallel to the chainstay, it would be
> > > roughly parallel to the seatstay. Then I'll run the cable down the
> > > seatstay using a full housing and some zip-ties. That orientation is
> > > provided, BTW, by the anti-turn washers for vertical dropouts.
> >
> > > Is there any danger or detriment in this? As far as I can tell, the
> > > cable doesn't get any closer to the cable and cog than it would in the
> > > normal position: I'm using the Shimano cog with an integrated guard,
> > > too.
> >
> > > Bonus question: any nominations for a really cheap 700c/29er singlespeed
> > > frame with disc mounts? I'm plotting fiendishly to move this project
> > > into Phase II sometime in early Fall: Mud-cheating cyclocross cheater
> > > bike, with disc brakes and the Alfine hub. The current cheapest nominee
> > > seems to be an NYCBikes CrossSpeed II.
> >
> > Jenson has a $115 frame with an eccentric bottom-bracket:
> >
> > http://www.jensonusa.com/store/prod...7Ebb+Frame.aspx
> >
> > Do you know if the CrossSpeed II requires a suspension-corrected fork?
> > It's pretty amazing to find a frame with Rohloff dropouts for only $200.
> > Plus, you get to throw around this NYCBikes slogan:
> >
> > "It's got chunks of lesser bikes in it's [sic] stool."
>
> Whoa, gnarly spelling!

I assume the apostrophe catastrophe is a result of a bit of NYC attitude
applied to the English language. .

The Zion frame is a good find, and in retrospect, I remember digging
that up before, but it seems to be out of stock now.

Plan C may be to experiment with welding a disc mount onto an
otherwise-unused frame in The Pile, but the general principle (notably
expressed by Landotter upthread) that I should just live without a rear
disc is probably the most sensible.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

Ryan Cousineau

In article
<e6bfa902-4b1b-4659-8b3f-25360a612e9c@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,
Andre Jute <fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Apr 30, 6:47*am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I've got a new Alfine drivetrain and I'm adding it to an existing bike
> > (a steel road bike with horizontal dropouts).
> >
> > For reasons that are some combination of pragmatic, quixotic, and daft,
> > I'm contemplating setting up the hub so that instead of the hub's cable
> > attachment arm being roughly parallel to the chainstay, it would be
> > roughly parallel to the seatstay. Then I'll run the cable down the
> > seatstay using a full housing and some zip-ties. That orientation is
> > provided, BTW, by the anti-turn washers for vertical dropouts.
> >
> > Is there any danger or detriment in this?

> There may be an advantage in doing what you plan because the gear
> cable may be less exposed on the seatstay than on the chainstay;
>
> On the other hand, with the chainstay cable run, the gearbox torque
> arm if hit can just flex under the chainstay where it will meet no
> resistance, whereas with your setup, if I visualise it right, it seems
> very likely that even a light hit will bend the torque arm over the
> chainstay -- ouch!

It's something to watch for, but I don't think it will be an issue. I
have mounted the wheel up like this on the work stand, and it looks like
the arm is between the seatstay and chainstay, and not likely to come in
contact with either, at least barring catastrophic circumstances. I'll
take some photos soon.

> Your description doesn't make clear if the different anti-turn washers
> you intend to use will turn the entire hub counterclockwise to put the
> detent for the actual operating nut on the cable at approximately 30
> degrees below the horizontal through the axle, say at the 8 o'clock
> position. If this is the case, it might get dirty rather more quickly
> than in the "normal" position. Just something to remember for a
> cleaning routine. Except for practising to take my Nexus-gearhub
> wheels off just in case of a roadside emergency, and demonstrating to
> other cyclists and family how quickly they can be removed and refitted
> once you have practised the tricky (intricate, fiddly) bits, I haven't
> actually removed mine, nor noticed that massive dirt gathers in the
> works around that nut (in the "normal" 11 o'clock position on both my
> Nexus bikes.

The entire "fixed" part of the shifting assembly (basically, the arm,
the cable mount, and that bit of the hub assembly that doesn't turn with
the hub shell) will be rotated counterclockwise (looking from the drive
side, of course). It's probably closer to 45 degrees "back" from normal.
I'll keep an eye on it for dirt issues.

> Finally, a tip about fitting the gearchange cable to the gearhub, the
> dumbest bit of design I have ever seen Shimano,

[&c...]

Thanks for the suggestions about cable fitting. I'll keep it in mind. I
will have to trim the cable and the housing quite a bit, since the
as-supplied kit with the grip-shifter may be long enough for a tandem. I
momentarily contemplated a quixotic routing with the cable wrapped
around the top tube several times and a few big loops, but then I
sobered up .

-RjC.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

Dan Burkhart

Ryan. The only possible issue you may encounter is very tight clearance between the cassette joint and the chain where they will cross. The cassette joint arm is designed to fit between the upper and lower run of the chain. On Nexus hubs,(I just took a trip around the shop to look at some of them,) when they are fitted with an outward dished cog, the cassette joint cable stop is actually directly over the chain. I also have an Alfine equipped bike on the floor, and it looks like it would have clearance, although minimal. I'm sure gently tweaking the shape of the arm would be ok, but be aware that might be a possible source of rubbing.
Other than that, if you have the right combo of no-turn washers to orient the cassette joint in that position, I see no problem.
Dan Burkhart
www.boomerbicycle.ca