Aluminium road bikes

[Volnix]

Hi

Posted that on the bike buying advice forum but with no reply, so since this is a frame issue I thought of posting that here too. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

I was looking at some aluminium bikes over the net and there seem to be quite a few options around. There are also subcategories on them like "endurance" or "performance". I am not talking about the TT bikes or stuff like that.

Are the "Endurance" bikes somewhat designed for longer distances (eg more comfortable) and for heavier road loads (eg pavement) then the "performance" ones?

I am basically looking for a road bike to ride around town and maybe some small excursions. I am starting to rule out touring and audax bikes and was never a big fan of hybrids.

Basicaly I am looking for an aluminium road bike which is a somewhat sophisticated in design.


At the moment I am looking at the:

Cannondale Caad8 and Caad10 series bikes and the Specialized Allez and Secteur series.

I am not planning to buy a complete bike and not a bare frame and noticed that there are different types of aluminium between the models on these bikes.

The cannondale ones seem to be available in either the Smartformed 6069 Alloy, SPEED SAVE, BB30 for the Caad10 or the New CAAD8, Optimized 6061 Alloy, SAVE, BB30 for the Caad8. The Caad 10 seems to come only with the higher end shimano groups.

The Specialized ones come in various combinations between the Allez and the Secteur. In either E5 aluminium frame or the A1 one. Some of the Specialized ones also have a vibration system stuck between the rear stays which might work but seems very suspectible to damage to me.

Do you think that I would get a major difference in performance whilst buying the (probably?) higher grade aluminium varieties of these models? I would also like to avoid that vibration absorber in the specialized ones. I think there also some designs that just use a different shape on the rear stays to achieve vibration reduction.


Many thanks

 

[danfoz]

The main difference between endurance and performance bikes is usually the length of the headtube putting the rider slightly more upright. For many riders, the same could probably be achieved with headset spacers and flipping the stem. Endurance bikes are designed more around "comfort" than "stiffness" and may be more compliant and able to soak up road vibration better. It's mostly marketing language and there is no reason an endurance bike cannot be raced, or a performance bike can be ridden across country. Endurance bikes may have slightly more tire clearance i.e for 32c tires etc. Speed save is a Cannondale marketing term. BB30 is the bottom bracket size designation.

Stick with a quality brand and you are probably going to get all the quality you need out of your alu frame. Either Specialized or Cannondale will be fine. The Cannondales have a great reputation and are on the lighter side of mass produced alu frames. Personally I wouldn't ride with the fancy inserts for purely aesthetic reasons. The guys that own my LBS went to visit the Specialized plant in Cali. Apparently the "cool" employees all remove their zerts inserts... does that mean anything?

 

[alienator]

The main difference between endurance and performance  bikes is usually the length of the headtube putting the rider slightly more upright. For many riders, the same could probably be achieved with headset spacers and flipping the stem. Endurance bikes are designed more around "comfort" than "stiffness" and may be more compliant and able to soak up road vibration better. It's mostly marketing language and there is no reason an endurance bike cannot be raced, or a performance bike can be ridden across country. Endurance bikes may have slightly more tire clearance i.e for 32c tires etc. Speed save is a Cannondale marketing term. BB30 is the bottom bracket size designation. Stick with a quality brand and you are probably going to get all the quality you need out of your alu frame. Either Specialized or Cannondale will be fine. The Cannondales have a great reputation and are on the lighter side of mass produced alu frames. Personally I wouldn't ride with the fancy inserts for purely aesthetic reasons. The guys that own my LBS went to visit the Specialized plant in Cali. Apparently the "cool" employees all remove their zerts inserts... does that mean anything?

A fair number of the manufacturers also reduce the top tube length by a centimeter or so on endurance frames.

 

[Volnix]

Thanks for the replies. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

I narrowed down my choice between the Cannondale Caad8 and the Specialized Allez. I had some thoughts on a Trek (the 2.1) but there is no Trek dealer in my city and I read somewhere that this bike is also designed for commuting purposes too so...

I think I like the Cannondale more. Since also the Caad8 is available with Shimano 105 on its top spec model I think it would be a bit more future proof for upgrades. On the other hand the specialized allez seems to get some very good reviews, particularly in terms of ergonomics, whilst the Caad 8 reviews say that its a "balanced bike between performance and comfort". Do you think that the Caad8 is in any way "racier" then the Allez? Or the Allez can be as racy as the Caad8 but also more comfortable with a different arrangment on the handlebar etc.

Both of these models are not the top of the line in the companies aluminium frame grades. The Allez is made from A1 (top of the line is E5 and that is only available with Shimano 105 on the top spec model). The Cannondale is the something something formed aluminium which and goes up to with Shimano 105 group set in contrast with the other alloy grade on the Caad10 which is available with an Ultegra groupset on its top spec model. I have seen some so and so frames being available with Ultegra but I dont think that this is the case with the cannondale...

Since both these two bikes are almost identical (the Allez sport and the Caad 8 Sora) would you think that the Cannondale would be a better choice in terms of being a true road bike and also a better frame or maybe the specialized is a better choice due to the ergonomics even though the line (even the E5 frame model) is not available with a high end group set from the manufacturer??? /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif

 

[alienator]

Thanks for the replies.  I narrowed down my choice between the Cannondale Caad8 and the Specialized Allez. I had some thoughts on a Trek (the 2.1) but there is no Trek dealer in my city and I read somewhere that this bike is also designed for commuting purposes too so... I think I like the Cannondale more. Since also the Caad8 is available with Shimano 105 on its top spec model I think it would be a bit more future proof for upgrades. On the other hand the specialized allez seems to get some very good reviews, particularly in terms of ergonomics, whilst the Caad 8 reviews say that its a "balanced bike between performance and comfort". Do you think that the Caad8 is in any way "racier" then the Allez? Or the Allez can be as racy as the Caad8 but also more comfortable with a different arrangment on the handlebar etc. Both of these models are not the top of the line in the companies aluminium frame grades. The Allez is made from A1 (top of the line is E5 and that is only available with Shimano 105 on the top spec model). The Cannondale is the something something formed aluminium which and goes up to with Shimano 105 group set in contrast with the other alloy grade on the Caad10 which is available with an Ultegra groupset on its top spec model. I have seen some so and so frames being available with Ultegra but I dont think that this is the case with the cannondale... Since both these two bikes are almost identical (the Allez sport and the Caad 8 Sora) would you think that the Cannondale would be a better choice in terms of being a true road bike and also a better frame or maybe the specialized is a better choice due to the ergonomics even though the line (even the E5 frame model) is not available with a high end group set from the manufacturer??? 

The only way to decide which is the better choice is by riding the two and seeing which one fits best, rides best, and most tickles your aesthetic fancy. Don't get caught up in comparing aluminum alloys, as knowing the alloy doesn't tell you anything about the ride or fit of the bike. I would also not be so quick to rule out the Trek 2.1. One of the most worthless factors about a bike is how a given manufacturer or ad writer describes said bike.

 

[Volnix]

Originally Posted by alienator .


The only way to decide which is the better choice is by riding the two and seeing which one fits best, rides best, and most tickles your aesthetic fancy. Don't get caught up in comparing aluminum alloys, as knowing the alloy doesn't tell you anything about the ride or fit of the bike. I would also not be so quick to rule out the Trek 2.1. One of the most worthless factors about a bike is how a given manufacturer or ad writer describes said bike.

Cant do that... I can only maybe test drive the allez (I seen a few at the stores here).
All other bikes are not in stock in shops around. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/mad.gif

 

[alienator]

Cant do that... I can only maybe test drive the allez (I seen a few at the stores here). All other bikes are not in stock in shops around. 

Then I'd test ride the Allez to see what you think. It might even be worth venturing a little farther to try a CAAD9 or CAAD10. They'll ride a bit different than the CAAD8 (which you're unlikely to find in a store), but they will give you a feel for CAAD geometry.

 

[Volnix]

Originally Posted by alienator .


Then I'd test ride the Allez to see what you think. It might even be worth venturing a little farther to try a CAAD9 or CAAD10. They'll ride a bit different than the CAAD8 (which you're unlikely to find in a store), but they will give you a feel for CAAD geometry.

Lol, l live in the second biggest city in the country. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif They might have one in Athens but I aint goin there... /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif

I checked the geometry yesterday too. The Allez has a higher headtube by a few mm, that probably means a bit more upright position. The Caad has a longer wheelbase, again by a few mm. That probably means more stability and bigger turning curve I guess, which I like. A problem that I always had with mtb is that they turn too easily... As far as for stiffness cant find any data.
I also like the straight lines of the Caad. I like this hydroforming procedure that they use in the aluminium bikes nowdays but I have no idea for what kind of loads they are designing the tubes for. I read somewhere that Pinarello for example carries out a load analysis which shapes the bikes tubes but I suspect that many others just form the tubes with aisthetics in mind...

 

[alienator]

Lol, l live in the second biggest city in the country.   They might have one in Athens but I aint goin there...  I checked the geometry yesterday too. The Allez has a higher headtube by a few mm, that probably means a bit more upright position. The Caad has a longer wheelbase, again by a few mm. That probably means more stability and bigger turning curve I guess, which I like. A problem that I always had with mtb is that they turn too easily... As far as for stiffness cant find any data. I also like the straight lines of the Caad. I like this hydroforming procedure that they use in the aluminium bikes nowdays but I have no idea for what kind of loads they are designing the tubes for. I read somewhere that Pinarello for example carries out a load analysis which shapes the bikes tubes but I suspect that many others just form the tubes with aisthetics in mind... 

For a given size, the Allez tends to have a bit more reach (distance from vertical line through BB center to steering axis), so for a given size it'll feel like you're a bit more stretched out (this assumes the comparison is done with the same stem and same handlebars). The CAAD will have quicker steering because of its steeper head tube angle and shorter trail. They both have similar wheelbases (within 2mm). The Allez has a longer head tube, so it will put you in more upright, relaxed position. Note that I compared a size 56 Allez to a size 56 CAAD, Overall, the Allez looks like it will be less aggressive and a bit slower steering. Specialized is releasing a new Allez this year that is significantly different in construction. I don't know, though, how it will be different in geometry.

 

[Volnix]

Originally Posted by alienator .


For a given size, the Allez tends to have a bit more reach (distance from vertical line through BB center to steering axis), so for a given size it'll feel like you're a bit more stretched out (this assumes the comparison is done with the same stem and same handlebars). The CAAD will have quicker steering because of its steeper head tube angle and shorter trail. They both have similar wheelbases (within 2mm). The Allez has a longer head tube, so it will put you in more upright, relaxed position. Note that I compared a size 56 Allez to a size 56 CAAD, Overall, the Allez looks like it will be less aggressive and a bit slower steering.
Specialized is releasing a new Allez this year that is significantly different in construction. I don't know, though, how it will be different in geometry.

By aggresive you mean slower acceleration?
I seen some 2013 allez's on the net allready. The Caad8 ones though seem to be getting out of stock permanently in a net retailer that I checked.

 

[alienator]

By aggresive you mean slower acceleration? I seen some 2013 allez's on the net allready. The Caad8 ones though seem to be getting out of stock permanently in a net retailer that I checked.

By aggressive I mean the CAAD puts you in a lower position and likely has more nimble/quicker steering. I don't know what an Allez weighs, but my guess is that for a given size, a CAAD will be lighter. All else being equal, I guess you could assume the CAAD would accelerate more quickly, but that's really splitting hairs. Acceleration is really dependent on the rider.

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by alienator .


...but that's really splitting hairs.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say between all the choices mentioned by the OP, it'll ultimately come down to this. You mentioned you like the look of the straight tubes - personally, like my women, my bikes aesthetics are probably one of the main reasons I buy them. Don't forget that when you test ride a bike, two very small but very important factors will affect the way the bike feels. stem length and handlebar width. Both can do more to affect the way the handling and quickness (or slowness) feel to the particular rider who is test riding than angles, trail, and wheelbase. Example: I was off the bike for a decade and ordered an alu Colnago w/105 several years ago. It came from Ireland (how I was only charged $50 for shipping I have no idea). There was no test ride. I put it together and headed to my local park. The bike didn't feel too good initially and on the downhill felt downright scary. Had I test ridden the bike in a shop and didn't know much about bikes I would have said "thankyou, but what's next?". Having owned and ridden many bikes I didn't start to fret. The handlebars were simply too narrow and the stem was too long, for me. The way a bike steers has a lot to do with how a given riders weight is centered over the steering axis. Swapping the 120 for a 90mm and moving the bars up from a 40 to a 42cm the whole nature of the beast changed, the bikes handling improved greatly and it actually ended up being one of my favs, handling-wise. My point, the difference in handling you feel on the test ride may not be the result of the frame, but the setup. Also, tire pressure could affect the way the bike feels over the bumps and make it feel more or less compliant, as well as affecting the "snappiness" of the bike. Make sure to top off the pressure right before the test ride if you do one. Just something to keep in mind.

The order of "aggressiveness" (from head tube length standpoint) starting from the least aggressive will be: CAAD8, Allez, CAAD10. I'm gonna go out on another limb and say if these three bikes were set up for me, my chances for the podium at this weekends race would be EXACTLY the same. Personally I'd go right for the CAAD10 and never look back, unless like Alienator mentioned, we were having this same convo next year, then I might consider the new "S-works" Allez. But who knows what they're gonna charge for that puppy.

PS I just looked at the prices. I thought a CAAD10 105 was sub $1500 - maybe that was last year or a price I saw at a LBS.

 

[mark174ace]

FWIW I have a 2012 Trek 2.1 Apex and I love it. I know you are looking for Shimano 105 components so if you come across the standard 2.1 you should definitely give it a try. The 2 series frames are very good and far far superior to the 1 series frames. When I was shopping for my new bike I also tried a 2011 CAAD 10 and thought it was nice. The apex shifters and the funky green were the tipping point for me haha. Just make sure you try before you buy!! Also just like Alienator said don't judge a bike by what the manufacturer says because most of them cannot even take a decent picture of a bike for their websites!

 

[danfoz]

Nice Trek.

 

[Volnix]

Originally Posted by mark174ace .

FWIW I have a 2012 Trek 2.1 Apex and I love it. I know you are looking for Shimano 105 components so if you come across the standard 2.1 you should definitely give it a try. The 2 series frames are very good and far far superior to the 1 series frames. When I was shopping for my new bike I also tried a 2011 CAAD 10 and thought it was nice. The apex shifters and the funky green were the tipping point for me haha. Just make sure you try before you buy!! Also just like Alienator said don't judge a bike by what the manufacturer says because most of them cannot even take a decent picture of a bike for their websites!

Nice bike /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

I seen some of the treks and I would definately consider a 2.1 if I could find a store here that sells them.

Do you think that buying one online is a big risk? I can exactly send it back if it doesnt fit... /img/vbsmilies/smilies/mad.gif

 

[mark174ace]

Full disclosure I changed the saddle as that was the one thing I (and others) flat out did not like about the bike. It was a borderline torture device haha. I bought the Specialized Avatar Gel Seat and it is WAY WAY more comfortable, but at the same time not too soft. Out of sheer preference because I am allergic to flat tires ;-) I switched out the tires for Conti Gatorskins. For sheer cosmetic purposes I changed the handlebar tape from OEM white to Bontrager neon green. Much better looking I must say as the white did not look right and got dirty real fast.

As far as the bike goes it kicks ass going uphill imo. I am hardly a pro and I pass people all the time. The carbon fork dampens small bumps fairly well. I never tried the regular 2.1 with the Shimano components so I cannot give you any feedback. As long as you get measured properly you should basically already know what size bike you need. I knew walking into my LBS that I was a 56cm. As long as you order the right size you should be fine. You may just need to make some small adjustments like I did to the saddle height. The only problem you could have is just not liking the bike I suppose.

Personally I am not that fussy. I tried several bikes and only really disliked one. My choice came down to shifters, what I thought was visually pleasing, and fit my budget. If I had not purchased the Trek I would have bought the 2011 CAAD 10 they had.

 

[Volnix]

Originally Posted by mark174ace .

Full disclosure I changed the saddle as that was the one thing I (and others) flat out did not like about the bike. It was a borderline torture device haha. I bought the Specialized Avatar Gel Seat and it is WAY WAY more comfortable, but at the same time not too soft. Out of sheer preference because I am allergic to flat tires ;-) I switched out the tires for Conti Gatorskins. For sheer cosmetic purposes I changed the handlebar tape from OEM white to Bontrager neon green. Much better looking I must say as the white did not look right and got dirty real fast.

As far as the bike goes it kicks ass going uphill imo. I am hardly a pro and I pass people all the time. The carbon fork dampens small bumps fairly well. I never tried the regular 2.1 with the Shimano components so I cannot give you any feedback. As long as you get measured properly you should basically already know what size bike you need. I knew walking into my LBS that I was a 56cm. As long as you order the right size you should be fine. You may just need to make some small adjustments like I did to the saddle height. The only problem you could have is just not liking the bike I suppose.

Personally I am not that fussy. I tried several bikes and only really disliked one. My choice came down to shifters, what I thought was visually pleasing, and fit my budget. If I had not purchased the Trek I would have bought the 2011 CAAD 10 they had.

The Caad10 sure is nice... /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif But for 1300Euro that is top of the line CX bike money. Probably better then some similarly priced CF bikes though...

 

[alienator]

The Caad10 sure is nice...   But for 1300Euro that is top of the line CX bike money. Probably better then some similarly priced CF bikes though...

Which CAAD10 did you price?

 

[Volnix]

Originally Posted by alienator .


Which CAAD10 did you price?

The bottom version with the 105 groupset. I think I saw it for sale at about $1500 somewhere online.

 

[alienator]

The bottom version with the 105 groupset. I think I saw it for sale at about $1500 somewhere online.

That's a damn good price and a spec well worth the money.