Anaerobic intervals before or after aerobic work within one workout?

[throckmorton]

I'm wondering if anyone has any data or experience on the benefits of sequencing anaerobic and aerobic intervals within one workout session. My goal is to optimize both.

A lot of times I'll do both longer aerobic intervals as well as some short anaerobic intensity intervals within one workout session. If I do the aerobic work first I can sustain a higher power level -- guessing because I'm using type I muscle fibers in addition to type II. If I do the anaerobic work first then I can't sustain as high of a power level during the aerobic work -- guessing because the fuel for the type I fibers is pretty much exhausted and I am mostly using type 2 fibers. I feel pretty gnarly during those aerobic intervals.

Thoughts? Does it matter? Is one way definitely better?

 

[doctorSpoc]

What zones are you talking about specifically?

generally thinking is to always do higher intensity before lower intensity (in week, in day, in workout).. Generally you need more fresh to complete higher intensity satisfactorily than for lower intensity...

 

[An old Guy]

You should do them in the order and intensity that you intend to do them in a race.

Of course, that requies that you control the race. That is hard to do.

I don't think it matters. Pick an order that matches the route you do on a regular basis. That way you can compare numbers between workouts.

 

[throckmorton]

Originally Posted by doctorSpoc .

What zones are you talking about specifically?

generally thinking is to always do higher intensity before lower intensity (in week, in day, in workout).. Generally you need more fresh to complete higher intensity satisfactorily than for lower intensity...

I'm talking about the 'anaerobic zone,' e.g. a 1 minute interval at 150% FTP. On the more aerobic side, I'm talking L3 -- L4.

I know that the general wisdom is to do anaerobic work first...just wondering if there is data to support that. I know that I would be able to put out more watts for an anaerobic interval done before several longer aerobic intervals, but does that mean that anaerobic intervals done after aerobic intervals (those anaerobic intervals at a lower wattage but with the same perceived level of fatigue) is necessarily worse for achieving the desired training effects?


OG, I totally agree with the idea of training like you want to race. I'll often do L6 --> L4 --> L6 --> L4 --> L6 to simulate a race with an initial semi sprint at the start, an attack in the middle, and a sprint at the end.

 

[mx416]

I"ve done them after threshold work. I can hit my zones, but my legs are quite sore the day after due to combining 2 days of workouts into one.

 

[doctorSpoc]

Originally Posted by throckmorton .


I'm talking about the 'anaerobic zone,' e.g. a 1 minute interval at 150% FTP. On the more aerobic side, I'm talking L3 -- L4.

I know that the general wisdom is to do anaerobic work first...just wondering if there is data to support that. I know that I would be able to put out more watts for an anaerobic interval done before several longer aerobic intervals, but does that mean that anaerobic intervals done after aerobic intervals (those anaerobic intervals at a lower wattage but with the same perceived level of fatigue) is necessarily worse for achieving the desired training effects?


OG, I totally agree with the idea of training like you want to race. I'll often do L6 --> L4 --> L6 --> L4 --> L6 to simulate a race with an initial semi sprint at the start, an attack in the middle, and a sprint at the end.

Adaptation is correlated to "training stress" (power and duration) not training strain (things like HR, PE etc..) that's why we use TSS, which contains power and duration to track training volume.. so how much the workout hurts is not a very good indicator how much good you did yourself in the adaptation department.. There are of course some psychological benefits from getting mentally tough.. But if you did lower power, you really did do less and will garner less adaptation from that workout.. e.g. you can make an indoor workout really hurt by turning up the heat and not using a fan.. You'll sweat, you'll have a really high heart, and it will likely REALLY hurt if you try to do your regular power, which you likely won't be able to do.. And you'll of accomplished less.. Even of you managed to do your regular power the workout would have taken way more out of you and negatively impacted your next workouts more than they need to have been.. Again there are some benefits in terms of mental toughness and even heat acclimatization.. But from a purely training/adaptation point of view you would have done less..

So if you're doing a workout at a lower power for the same duration, yes you are really doing less.. and in the case of AWC workout where the quality of the workout really depends on the interval being done at the highest power possible.. You've likely failed at achieving your goal for the workout at all.. likely not done the workout you think you've done

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by throckmorton .


I'm talking about the 'anaerobic zone,' e.g. a 1 minute interval at 150% FTP. On the more aerobic side, I'm talking L3 -- L4.

I will bow out of if you should do them first, last, or mixed in.

---

But 1 minute @ 150% FTP may not be useful. For example:

Today I did not have much time or ambition so I did hill repeats for an hour. 1 minute up. 1 minute down. So 30 minutes of "hard" work.

My heart rate was in L3 or below for 27 minutes out of those 30 minutes. Just not enough time for my heart rate to catch up with my power output needs.

My power output was in L6 or above (mostly L7) for 20 minutes of the 30 minutes. For the 32 climbs: 7 were above 150% FTP. All were above 125% (My target).

My TSS was 118 (IF = 1.07) for the 1 hour. Average power was only 60% FTP. (I have my FTP correct. My FTP is limited by my heart rate and that stayed low.)

While the power output and TSS indicate a hard workout, the heart rate and average power indicate an easy day.

I need to find a longer hill.

---

The purpose of the example was to suggest that you need to look at more than your power output.

 

[swampy1970]

There's merit to doing them before, after or during... The important thing is that you define the goals for the session and concentrate on those goals eg if you decide to spread them out during a fairly long L3 ride and you find out that after a L6 effort that L3 just ain't gonna happen for a few minutes then so be it. A few minutes a L2 ain't gonna ruin a ride...

If you're racing lots you'll likely get all the mixed bag of zones you need so a specific training session of L5 and L6 may be the order of the day. Coggan/hunters book has some good example of such work outs.

 

[doctorSpoc]

Originally Posted by swampy1970 .

If you're racing lots you'll likely get all the mixed bag of zones you need so a specific training session of L5 and L6 may be the order of the day. Coggan/hunters book has some good example of such work outs.

good point.. I totally agree with this.. if you're racing on weekends and/or have a midweek training race (especially crits.) you're going to get a much better L5 and L6 workout from the racing.. even have a very spirited, testosterone fest group ride will work if you make yourself dig deep.. got or town signs etc.. i usually only find myself doing these workouts just before i enter the season... since i haven't raced in a while and have been doing pretty much solid L4 for the whole off season.. softens the shock to the system of the first few races.. or if i get injured and can't race for an extended period of time..

 

[awilki01]

Everyone is different, but everything I have read (and what works for me) is to always do the harder workouts first. This goes with scheduling weekly routines as well. Do your harder workouts early in the week so as to ensure you can hit your targets to get subsequent adaptations. Then, do the easier workouts later in the week.

Again, everyone is different and that may not work for you. But, it does work for me.

 

[lanierb]

I doubt that there is any experimental evidence investigating this (never heard of any anyway), and if not then any answer is pure speculation. I would therefore do whatever works better for you. If it's easier mentally to do the harder ones first, do the harder ones first, and vice-versa. You'll probably get a better workout that way even if it's all just down to making it mentally easier.

 

[awilki01]

I would like to change what I said above after having thought about it a little longer. I would definitely do the harder workouts first so as to ensure you hit the proper power/work for those intervals. Then, you can do the easier intervals with little fear you won't be able to maintain the lower power.

If you train with a power meter, I almost guarantee you will have better power output on the harder intervals if you do them first. I've seen this from my own experience as well.

After having thought more about it, I don't feel that any one person is unique from this phenomena. Definitely harder workouts first.

From a weekly scheduling perspective, it doesn't mean you can't go do anaerobic intervals on a Tuesday and Friday both. It just means that you better have enough rest before you attempt them on Friday. But, if you are trying to train multiple systems and have to decide, keep the harder stuff earlier in the week.

I'm avoiding anaerobic like the plague now, but I still try to keep my full threshold intervals on Tuesday (I'll throw in some SST and Zone 3 stuff after my harder threshold intervals) and my SST intervals on Thursday. Saturday is a ride like a feel ride - usually zone 3/4. Sunday is another ride like I feel, but I don't like to do full threshold then. As you can see, I sort of have two cycles per week - the weekday and the weekends keeping the harder stuff at the beginning of each.

 

[awilki01]

Originally Posted by An old Guy .


I will bow out of if you should do them first, last, or mixed in.

---

But 1 minute @ 150% FTP may not be useful. For example:

Today I did not have much time or ambition so I did hill repeats for an hour. 1 minute up. 1 minute down. So 30 minutes of "hard" work.

My heart rate was in L3 or below for 27 minutes out of those 30 minutes. Just not enough time for my heart rate to catch up with my power output needs.

My power output was in L6 or above (mostly L7) for 20 minutes of the 30 minutes. For the 32 climbs: 7 were above 150% FTP. All were above 125% (My target).

My TSS was 118 (IF = 1.07) for the 1 hour. Average power was only 60% FTP. (I have my FTP correct. My FTP is limited by my heart rate and that stayed low.)

While the power output and TSS indicate a hard workout, the heart rate and average power indicate an easy day.

I need to find a longer hill.

---

The purpose of the example was to suggest that you need to look at more than your power output.

What you are experiencing is heart rate lag. Yes, your average power was low, but I bet your normalized power was MUCH higher. Don't base any short interval set on heart rate. It just takes too long for the heart to catch up. This is where power shines.