Beloki losing rear tire... Tubular problem?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Whitfit, Jul 14, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Whitfit

    Whitfit Guest

    When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind two things; first, Jobst's
    assertions that tubulars are bad in the alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear
    braking in that situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was also using an 18mm
    tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't seem slowed at all, and he might not have so many
    broken bones with them.

    Whitfit.
     
    Tags:


  2. An anonymous poster wrote:

    > When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind two things; first, Jobst's
    > assertions that tubulars are bad in the alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear
    > braking in that situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was also using an
    > 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't seem slowed at all, and he might not have
    > so many broken bones with them.

    Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.

    I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had fishtailed. This suggests to me that
    he may have used his rear brake when he shouldn't have.

    See: http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html

    Sheldon "One Brake At A Time" Brown +---------------------------------------------------------+
    | It is good to learn from your mistakes; | It is better to learn from the mistakes of others. |
    +---------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
    Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
    shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  3. From the photos, it appears that he was riding on clinchers, not tubulars (based on what looks very
    much like a Velox rimstrip on his wheel).

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com

    "whitfit" <tpwhitfit@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:d599f330.0307141249.790f3842@posting.google.com...
    > When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind two things; first, Jobst's
    > assertions that tubulars are bad in the alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear
    > braking in that situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was also using an
    > 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't seem slowed at all, and he might not have
    > so many broken bones with them.
    >
    > Whitfit.
     
  4. Sheldon Brown wrote:
    > Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.
    >
    > I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had fishtailed. This suggests to me
    > that he may have used his rear brake when he shouldn't have.

    Yeah. It was a hard right turn on a fast winding descent. He and Lance were trying to chase down
    Vinokourov so they were pushing it. Beloki's back wheel slid out way to his left and then slid back
    to his right and he fell down the hill sideways on his right side. It looked very very painful. It
    was a sad thing to see. He was a big part of making this year's tour interesting.

    The way he slid, it did look like rear braking may have been at fault but it's hard to
    tell for sure.

    A lot of people were talking about tar on the road melting and making it slippery. Who the hell
    still uses tar for pavement? I thought that went out 50-60 years ago.

    At least Lance came out unscathed; though his little cycle cross solution to collision avoidance did
    cost him a little time to Vinokourov (though obviously not as much as crashing would have).

    --Bill Davidson
    --
    Please remove ".nospam" from my address for email replies.
     
  5. Peter

    Peter Guest

    That's France for you (and other countries in Europe also) Roads less travelled on get patched up
    after the winter with gravel and tar (It's cheaper and quicker propably), It's better than
    pottholes though.

    Peter

    "Bill Davidson" <billdav@cox.nospam.net> wrote in message news:JyFQa.23$He.15@fed1read03...
    > Sheldon Brown wrote:
    > > Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not
    pause.
    > >
    > > I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had fishtailed. This suggests to me
    > > that he may have used his rear brake when he shouldn't have.
    >
    > Yeah. It was a hard right turn on a fast winding descent. He and Lance were trying to chase down
    > Vinokourov so they were pushing it. Beloki's back wheel slid out way to his left and then slid
    > back to his right and he fell down the hill sideways on his right side. It looked very very
    > painful. It was a sad thing to see. He was a big part of making this year's tour interesting.
    >
    > The way he slid, it did look like rear braking may have been at fault but it's hard to tell
    > for sure.
    >
    > A lot of people were talking about tar on the road melting and making it slippery. Who the hell
    > still uses tar for pavement? I thought that went out 50-60 years ago.
    >
    > At least Lance came out unscathed; though his little cycle cross solution to collision avoidance
    > did cost him a little time to Vinokourov (though obviously not as much as crashing would have).
    >
    > --Bill Davidson
    > --
    > Please remove ".nospam" from my address for email replies.
     
  6. Raptor

    Raptor Guest

    Bill Davidson wrote:
    > Sheldon Brown wrote:
    >
    >> Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.
    >>
    >> I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had fishtailed. This suggests to me
    >> that he may have used his rear brake when he shouldn't have.
    >
    >
    > Yeah. It was a hard right turn on a fast winding descent. He and Lance were trying to chase down
    > Vinokourov so they were pushing it. Beloki's back wheel slid out way to his left and then slid
    > back to his right and he fell down the hill sideways on his right side. It looked very very
    > painful. It was a sad thing to see. He was a big part of making this year's tour interesting.

    Could have been too much speed, could have been slippery road. You need to look a few meters earlier
    to find the real cause. A likely combination of both.

    I'm not sure but it might have been the same corner that we saw Vinokourov go through, when Phil
    said, "That was a sketcy patch right there," or words to that effect. I'm not clear on how much of a
    lead Vino had at the time. If it was just 10 seconds or so it would have fit.

    > The way he slid, it did look like rear braking may have been at fault but it's hard to tell
    > for sure.
    >
    > A lot of people were talking about tar on the road melting and making it slippery. Who the hell
    > still uses tar for pavement? I thought that went out 50-60 years ago.

    Lots of mountain and rural roads get 'em. They're all over in the Intermountain West. They put up
    speed warning signs ("Avoid broken windshield. 15 mph.") around the freshly-laid stretches.

    --
    --
    Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
    could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
    charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.
     
  7. Ronald

    Ronald Guest

    > From the photos, it appears that he was riding on clinchers, not tubulars (based on what looks
    > very much like a Velox rimstrip on his wheel).

    I'm pretty sure they're clinchers, the higher sidewalls are also clearly visible:
    http://www.velonews.com/images/details/4520.5461.f.jpg

    The tyre getting of the rim is propably the result of the crash and not the cause.

    "Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> wrote in message
    news:wBFQa.739$uc1.187@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com...
    > From the photos, it appears that he was riding on clinchers, not tubulars (based on what looks
    > very much like a Velox rimstrip on his wheel).
    >
    > --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com
    >
    > "whitfit" <tpwhitfit@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:d599f330.0307141249.790f3842@posting.google.com...
    > > When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind two things; first, Jobst's
    > > assertions that tubulars are bad in the alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear
    > > braking in that situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was also using an
    > > 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't seem slowed at all, and he might not
    > > have so many broken bones with them.
    > >
    > > Whitfit.
    >
     
  8. P. Hardewig

    P. Hardewig Guest

    ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald" <nomail@nomail.com> Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech Sent:
    Monday, July 14, 2003 6:47 PM Subject: Re: Beloki losing rear tire... Tubular problem?

    > > From the photos, it appears that he was riding on clinchers, not
    tubulars
    > > (based on what looks very much like a Velox rimstrip on his wheel).
    >
    > I'm pretty sure they're clinchers, the higher sidewalls are also clearly
    visible:
    > http://www.velonews.com/images/details/4520.5461.f.jpg
    >
    > The tyre getting of the rim is propably the result of the crash and not
    the cause.

    I think you're right about the clincher tire. I just read the Velonews account and Armstrong stated
    that Beloki had locked up his brakes, the rear wheel started to slide and the tire blew. FWIW, I had
    the same thing happen to me about 20 years ago coming into a hard turn after screaming my (then) 185
    lbs down a hill near Ft Ancient, OH. By some miracle, I managed to stay upright, although my
    Anquetil cleats lost a bit of depth from being used as outriggers!
     
  9. "P. Hardewig @fuse.net>" <pjwig<nospam> wrote in message
    news:3f133f13$0$13007$a0465688@nnrp.fuse.net...
    > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald" <nomail@nomail.com> Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
    > Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 6:47 PM Subject: Re: Beloki losing rear tire... Tubular problem?
    >
    >
    > > > From the photos, it appears that he was riding on clinchers, not
    > tubulars
    > > > (based on what looks very much like a Velox rimstrip on his wheel).
    > >
    > > I'm pretty sure they're clinchers, the higher sidewalls are also clearly
    > visible:
    > > http://www.velonews.com/images/details/4520.5461.f.jpg
    > >
    > > The tyre getting of the rim is propably the result of the crash and not
    > the cause.
    >
    >
    > I think you're right about the clincher tire. I just read the Velonews account and Armstrong
    > stated that Beloki had locked up his brakes, the
    rear
    > wheel started to slide and the tire blew. FWIW, I had the same thing
    happen
    > to me about 20 years ago coming into a hard turn after screaming my (then) 185 lbs down a hill
    > near Ft Ancient, OH. By some miracle, I managed to
    stay
    > upright, although my Anquetil cleats lost a bit of depth from being used
    as
    > outriggers!

    Doubt very much those are clinchers; the day before they were on carbon-rim tubulars; see
    http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/tech2.html for a look. The lighter strip on the rim is either tire glue
    or more likely, the tire pulled away from it's base tape under the strain of the crash and that's
    what you see. I rolled a conti sprinter once back when they were prone to doing that, and the
    remaining base tape looked just about like that.

    I'd be more inclined to blame the notoriously spotty braking manners of carbon rims. Bad road
    surface + hard-to-modulate brakes + tires that peel off when you get 'em sideways = big ouch. Just
    speculation of course, but it wouldn't be the first time that compromising function for light weight
    put a rider on the deck. Just ask Tyler...

    As an aside, this is the first year Beloki hasn't used a 650-wheeled bike in the mountains. Last
    year when they first rode the carbon TCR's, he was the only guy on Once to still use a special
    aluminum bike with smaller wheels on the climbing stages - a holdover from the days of Jalabert, who
    used them in the mountains until his retirement.
     
  10. Tim McNamara

    Tim McNamara Guest

    In article <3F131F16.5080402@sheldonbrown.com>,
    Sheldon Brown <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com> wrote:

    > An anonymous poster wrote:
    >
    > > When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind two things; first, Jobst's
    > > assertions that tubulars are bad in the alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear
    > > braking in that situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was also using an
    > > 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't seem slowed at all, and he might not
    > > have so many broken bones with them.

    Big Mig used clinchers in the mountains, presumably for this reason as a large and heavy rider he
    was going to be braking hard.

    > Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.
    >
    > I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had fishtailed. This suggests to me
    > that he may have used his rear brake when he shouldn't have.

    The video clip I saw on the evening news showed a dramatic fishtail- almost sideways in one
    direction, then the other, and *boom* he hit the pavement hard. Followed by Armstrong plowing off
    the road and through a field basically down the fall line, then hopping off the bike and running
    onto the road and remounting. Not quite with the smooth cyclo-cross style of, say, Daniele Pontoni
    or Adri van der Poel, but entertaining none the less. He must have been shitting bricks!
     
  11. Tim McNamara

    Tim McNamara Guest

    In article <JyFQa.23$He.15@fed1read03>, Bill Davidson <billdav@cox.nospam.net> wrote:

    > A lot of people were talking about tar on the road melting and making it slippery. Who the hell
    > still uses tar for pavement? I thought that went out 50-60 years ago

    When I was in the Alps last summer, it looked like the seam patches were tar with some sort of
    greenish sand on top rather than asphalt
    mix.
     
  12. Jim Edgar

    Jim Edgar Guest

    Sheldon Brown at CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com wrote on 7/14/03 2:22 PM:

    > An anonymous poster wrote:
    >
    >> When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind two things; first, Jobst's
    >> assertions that tubulars are bad in the alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear
    >> braking in that situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was also using an
    >> 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't seem slowed at all, and he might not have
    >> so many broken bones with them.
    >
    > Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.
    >
    > I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had fishtailed. This suggests to me
    > that he may have used his rear brake when he shouldn't have.

    Hard to say, as the footage was all from the helicopter. It was, however, a brutal crash - went down
    hard on his leg/hip, slid for way too long on his elbow and whip-snapped his shoulder and head down
    onto the pavement.

    Reports have him with a broken femur and elbow.

    How it appeared on the OLN feed this AM:

    Vino was about 15 seconds ahead at the crest of the hill, and was descending like a madman. Reported
    ambient temps were low-to-mid-90's (F). Comments had been made about the "softness" of the French
    roads in this region.

    Beloki was leading Armstrong, who had five or six riders behind him. The verbal time gap was given
    as 13 seconds.

    Vinokourov approaches the "double bowknot" set of horseshoe turns on fairly narrow roads. This will
    be where Beloki goes down. The screen computer shows a 10 second gap.

    The moto camera was behind Vinokourov as he went through that section - you can see very shiny spots
    on the roadway as Vino speeds through the 90 degree left before the double bowknot. Phil states that
    you can see the melted spots in the roadway, and as Vino makes it through continues, "..that was a
    rather dodgy corner". The moto camera seems to slow and shift a bit, as the cameraman has trouble
    keep Vino in the frame.

    Then the problems begin.

    Armstrong seems to drop back from Beloki, who continues pressing into the turn. As he begins to set
    for the turn he is closer to the center of the road than Armstrong.

    He fishtales left, and Armstrong begins to make up ground, as though Beloki has hit the brakes.

    The skid continues, rear tire breaking further to his left until it is obscured by Beloki's seated
    body. The bike seems to continue sliding out to the left, as evidenced by his body english. He has
    the front of the bike pointed well to recover, although it isn't clear he would make the turn at
    this point.

    While the rear wheel is behind his body (bike angled maybe 30-40 degrees), the tire appears behind
    him. It has come off the rim at this point. Definitely moves off the rim and is visible as a
    separate object.

    The rear rim must've dug in, as at this point, it becomes airborne, swinging through the air to a
    nearly 30 degree angle to the right of Beloki. It knifes down into the tarmac and the bike's forward
    motion is arrested.

    At this point, the bike swings over the rear rim, Beloki comes down hard on his right leg and the
    damage progresses.

    Armstrong in a post race interviews described Beloki as hitting the brakes hard, then locking up the
    rear, then rolling the tire, which seems consistent with the images.

    Sad, sad stuff....

    -- Jim

    http://www.cyclfiend.com http://lists.cyclofiend.com/mailman/listinfo/race-report
     
  13. DiabloScott

    DiabloScott Active Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,284
    Likes Received:
    1
    Armstrong said in his interview with Frankie Andreu that Beloki's tire rolled and THEN it blew up. No way a clincher would do that of course but Lance might not be remembering everything exactly as it happened either. I couldn't find who ONCE's tire sponsors are. Some Michelin-sponsored teams have a deal to only ride clinchers.
     
  14. Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote let it be known in
    news:timmcn-FF0090.20590314072003@gemini.visi.com:

    > Followed by Armstrong plowing off the road and through a field basically down the fall line,
    > then hopping off the bike and running onto the road and remounting. Not quite with the smooth
    > cyclo-cross style of, say, Daniele Pontoni or Adri van der Poel, but entertaining none the less.
    > He must have been shitting bricks!

    Did you catch the post-race interview with Lance? He was asked if he had done any cyclo-cross racing
    this year. His answer was 'Just one race, plus today makes two'.

    :)

    --

    Curt Bousquet moc.enilnacs@PTNN < Reverse for email

    Road biking in Southern VT and Western Mass.

    My 2003 bike log: http://www.scanline.com/bikelog/2003.html
     
  15. An anonymous poster wrote:

    >>>When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind two things; first, Jobst's
    >>>assertions that tubulars are bad in the alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear
    >>>braking in that situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was also using an
    >>>18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't seem slowed at all, and he might not have
    >>>so many broken bones with them.

    I commented:

    >>Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.
    >>
    >>I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had fishtailed. This suggests to me
    >>that he may have used his rear brake when he shouldn't have.

    Jim Edgar wrote:

    > Hard to say, as the footage was all from the helicopter. It was, however, a brutal crash - went
    > down hard on his leg/hip, slid for way too long on his elbow and whip-snapped his shoulder and
    > head down onto the pavement.
    >
    > Reports have him with a broken femur and elbow.
    >
    > How it appeared on the OLN feed this AM:
    >
    > Vino was about 15 seconds ahead at the crest of the hill, and was descending like a madman.
    > Reported ambient temps were low-to-mid-90's (F). Comments had been made about the "softness" of
    > the French roads in this region.
    >
    > Beloki was leading Armstrong, who had five or six riders behind him. The verbal time gap was given
    > as 13 seconds.
    >
    > Vinokourov approaches the "double bowknot" set of horseshoe turns on fairly narrow roads. This
    > will be where Beloki goes down. The screen computer shows a 10 second gap.

    I have since had the opportunity to watch this several times in slo-mo.

    It appears to me that the skid began _before_ the turn, as Beloki was trying to slow in preparation
    for the turn, but he had not begun to actually lean over into the sharp part of the turn. I believe
    this crash would not have happened if he had not used his rear brake.

    Lance went over the same pavement, also braking, and didn't fishtail.

    > The moto camera was behind Vinokourov as he went through that section - you can see very shiny
    > spots on the roadway as Vino speeds through the 90 degree left before the double bowknot. Phil
    > states that you can see the melted spots in the roadway, and as Vino makes it through continues,
    > "..that was a rather dodgy corner". The moto camera seems to slow and shift a bit, as the
    > cameraman has trouble keep Vino in the frame.

    Do you really believe that Phil Liggett's commentary on the highlights show is done in real time? I
    have always assumed that he puts his script together after the event, matching the footage, which he
    has already seen. This isn't the first time I've seen a bit of foreshadowing in his copy. He's good
    at his job, so he knows how to sound surprised nonetheless.

    I'm very sorry that Beloki was injured, and wouldn't normally want to criticize him in a public
    forum like this, if it weren't for my belief that this crash offers a valuable lesson to all
    cyclists on the dangers of inappropriate use of the rear brake.

    Again, for those who tuned in late, here's my article on this important topic. It might save your
    life: http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html

    Sheldon "Front Brake" Brown +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
    | The man who never alters his opinions is like standing water, | and breeds reptiles of the mind.
    | --William Blake |
    +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
    Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
    shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  16. Mike S.

    Mike S. Guest

    > I have since had the opportunity to watch this several times in slo-mo.
    >
    > It appears to me that the skid began _before_ the turn, as Beloki was trying to slow in
    > preparation for the turn, but he had not begun to actually lean over into the sharp part of the
    > turn. I believe this crash would not have happened if he had not used his rear brake.
    >
    > Lance went over the same pavement, also braking, and didn't fishtail.

    I'm with Sheldon on this one. If you knew what you were looking for (I overslept this AM and watched
    the 1100 west coast version after looking at various websites) you saw that Beloki's wheel was
    momentarily stopped. THEN all hell broke loose. High sides suck!

    Mike

    > > The moto camera was behind Vinokourov as he went through that section -
    you
    > > can see very shiny spots on the roadway as Vino speeds through the 90
    degree
    > > left before the double bowknot. Phil states that you can see the melted spots in the roadway,
    > > and as Vino makes it through continues, "..that
    was a
    > > rather dodgy corner". The moto camera seems to slow and shift a bit,
    as
    > > the cameraman has trouble keep Vino in the frame.
    >
    > Do you really believe that Phil Liggett's commentary on the highlights show is done in real time?
    > I have always assumed that he puts his script together after the event, matching the footage,
    > which he has already seen. This isn't the first time I've seen a bit of foreshadowing in his copy.
    > He's good at his job, so he knows how to sound surprised nonetheless.
    >
    > I'm very sorry that Beloki was injured, and wouldn't normally want to criticize him in a public
    > forum like this, if it weren't for my belief that this crash offers a valuable lesson to all
    > cyclists on the dangers of inappropriate use of the rear brake.
    >
    > Again, for those who tuned in late, here's my article on this important topic. It might save your
    > life: http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html
    >
    > Sheldon "Front Brake" Brown +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
    > | The man who never alters his opinions is like standing water, | and breeds reptiles of the
    > | mind. --William Blake |
    > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
    > Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
    > shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  17. Tim McNamara

    Tim McNamara Guest

    In article <3f13756b$1_1@news.chariot.net.au>,
    DiabloScott <NOSPAMdiabloscott@terra.es> wrote:

    > Armstrong said in his interview with Frankie Andreu that Beloki's tire rolled and THEN it blew up.
    > No way a clincher would do that of course but Lance might not be remembering everything exactly as
    > it happened either.

    Yeah, it's not like events were happening quickly or anything! ;-)
     
  18. Tim McNamara

    Tim McNamara Guest

    In article <3F138714.3070903@sheldonbrown.com>,
    Sheldon Brown <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com> wrote:

    > Do you really believe that Phil Liggett's commentary on the highlights show is done in real time?
    > I have always assumed that he puts his script together after the event, matching the footage,
    > which he has already seen. This isn't the first time I've seen a bit of foreshadowing in his copy.
    > He's good at his job, so he knows how to sound surprised nonetheless.

    Liggett and Sherwen sometime mention that they are commentating live, watching in the press area at
    the finish on TV monitors. For the daily TV broadcasts I suspect this is probably the case, and CBS
    probably just picked up the video from the UK and edited it.

    He does do some overdubbing for the WCP videos, and comes here to Minnesota for those (or at
    least used to).
     
  19. Garyg

    Garyg Guest

    "Sheldon Brown" <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com> wrote in message
    news:3F138714.3070903@sheldonbrown.com...
    > An anonymous poster wrote:
    >
    > >>>When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind two things; first,
    > >>>Jobst's assertions that tubulars are bad in the alps due to melting glue, and second, that
    > >>>heavy rear braking in that situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was
    > >>>also using an 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't seem slowed at all, and
    > >>>he might not have so many broken bones with them.
    >
    > I commented:
    >
    > >>Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not
    pause.
    > >>
    > >>I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had fishtailed. This suggests to me
    > >>that he may have used his rear brake when he shouldn't have.
    >
    > Jim Edgar wrote:
    >
    > > Hard to say, as the footage was all from the helicopter. It was,
    however, a
    > > brutal crash - went down hard on his leg/hip, slid for way too long on
    his
    > > elbow and whip-snapped his shoulder and head down onto the pavement.
    > >
    > > Reports have him with a broken femur and elbow.
    > >
    > > How it appeared on the OLN feed this AM:
    > >
    > > Vino was about 15 seconds ahead at the crest of the hill, and was
    descending
    > > like a madman. Reported ambient temps were low-to-mid-90's (F).
    Comments
    > > had been made about the "softness" of the French roads in this region.
    > >
    > > Beloki was leading Armstrong, who had five or six riders behind him.
    The
    > > verbal time gap was given as 13 seconds.
    > >
    > > Vinokourov approaches the "double bowknot" set of horseshoe turns on
    fairly
    > > narrow roads. This will be where Beloki goes down. The screen computer shows a 10 second gap.
    >
    > I have since had the opportunity to watch this several times in slo-mo.
    >
    > It appears to me that the skid began _before_ the turn, as Beloki was trying to slow in
    > preparation for the turn, but he had not begun to actually lean over into the sharp part of the
    > turn. I believe this crash would not have happened if he had not used his rear brake.
    >
    > Lance went over the same pavement, also braking, and didn't fishtail.
    >
    > > The moto camera was behind Vinokourov as he went through that section -
    you
    > > can see very shiny spots on the roadway as Vino speeds through the 90
    degree
    > > left before the double bowknot. Phil states that you can see the melted spots in the roadway,
    > > and as Vino makes it through continues, "..that
    was a
    > > rather dodgy corner". The moto camera seems to slow and shift a bit,
    as
    > > the cameraman has trouble keep Vino in the frame.
    >
    > Do you really believe that Phil Liggett's commentary on the highlights show is done in real time?
    > I have always assumed that he puts his script together after the event, matching the footage,
    > which he has already seen. This isn't the first time I've seen a bit of foreshadowing in his copy.
    > He's good at his job, so he knows how to sound surprised nonetheless.

    I was watching the live coverage this morning, and Phil did indeed make that comment about the
    "rather dodgy corner" Vino negotiated, moments before Beloki's crash. In fact, he had commented
    several times on earlier descents about the treacherous nature of the road surface, due to the
    "bitumen melting" (although I doubt that was really a contributing factor).

    ~_-* ...G/ \G http://www.shastasoftware.com Developers of CycliStats - Software for Cyclists

    >
    > I'm very sorry that Beloki was injured, and wouldn't normally want to criticize him in a public
    > forum like this, if it weren't for my belief that this crash offers a valuable lesson to all
    > cyclists on the dangers of inappropriate use of the rear brake.
    >
    > Again, for those who tuned in late, here's my article on this important topic. It might save your
    > life: http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html
    >
    > Sheldon "Front Brake" Brown +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
    > | The man who never alters his opinions is like standing water, | and breeds reptiles of the
    > | mind. --William Blake |
    > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
    > Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
    > shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  20. Sheldon Brown <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com> wrote:

    > Do you really believe that Phil Liggett's commentary on the highlights show is done in real time?
    > I have always assumed that he puts his script together after the event, matching the footage,
    > which he has already seen. This isn't the first time I've seen a bit of foreshadowing in his copy.
    > He's good at his job, so he knows how to sound surprised nonetheless.

    I've watched both the live and evening replay coverage of several stages and the Phil/Paul voiceover
    of actual race coverage is exactly the same. The sequence of intro/outro bits, Frankie Andreu
    interludes, etc changes, and they edit out some of the race to fit into the evening timeslot.

    > I'm very sorry that Beloki was injured, and wouldn't normally want to criticize him in a public
    > forum like this, if it weren't for my belief that this crash offers a valuable lesson to all
    > cyclists on the dangers of inappropriate use of the rear brake.

    > Again, for those who tuned in late, here's my article on this important topic. It might save your
    > life: http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html

    I'm sure you're right that he braked and locked up the rear wheel, esp. as he wasn't very far into
    the turn. It is possible to skid the rear on hairpins without rear braking, especially if the road
    is slick or loose. At least, I think I've done it, but frankly my memory is mostly of thinking
    "Shi-i-i-it!" I have also lost it badly in a turn due to inappropriate rear braking, but fortunately
    low-sided rather than high-sided. Nothing about it felt fortunate at the time.
     
Loading...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...