compact geometry hell

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Callistus Valer, Feb 29, 2004.

  1. Derk <I_hatespam@invalid.org> wrote:

    > Jesse Thompson wrote:
    >
    > > said, and you have dodged over and over again, people with short legs and long torsos (like me!)
    > > can fit a standard compact frame but not a "classic" square frame.
    > I have noticed this too: especially italian frames, but also Look frames are very short. a 58 c-c
    > frame typically has 57.5cm top tube, which forces me to mount a 13cm stem. This makes a bike
    > "nervous".
    >
    > I saw that a L compact has a 58cm top tube. Still .5cm less than my custom built frames, but it
    > fits me better.
    >
    > Greets, Derk

    No need to limit yourself to brands that size in letters.

    Here is a Cervelo with a 59.2 / 73deg top tube:

    http://www.cervelo.com/bikes/SLTeam.html#Geometry

    Specialized makes a "62" with a 60.cm/72.5deg:

    http://www.specialized.com/SBCGeometryPopup.jsp?sizechart=04sworks2&bike model=04%20S-
    Works%20E5%20Road%20Frameset

    K2 makes a 60cm/72deg frame:

    http://www.k2bike.com/04products/road/mod5.asp

    There are some really long bikes out there these days, things are much better for people
    like us now...

    Jesse
     


  2. bcdi-<< However, I do think that there are some traditionalists on this thread that merely want to
    dismiss compact frames under the assumption that its all a smoke & mirrors marketing thing. Usually,
    that's the last line of defense for an old fart to claim that new technology is all marketing.
    >><BR><BR>

    clue-less.............

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  3. Jesse Thompson <jesseth@removethis_gwi.net> wrote:
    >There IS a problem being solved with a compact frame. As Mike S has said, and you have dodged over
    >and over again, people with short legs and long torsos (like me!) can fit a standard compact frame
    >but not a "classic" square frame.

    That certainly comes as news to me; I just use a stem with plenty of forward extension.
    --
    David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
     
  4. Jay Beattie

    Jay Beattie Guest

    "David Damerell" <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in
    message news:JVg*hrIeq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
    > Jesse Thompson <jesseth@removethis_gwi.net> wrote:
    > >There IS a problem being solved with a compact frame. As Mike
    S has
    > >said, and you have dodged over and over again, people with
    short legs
    > >and long torsos (like me!) can fit a standard compact frame
    but not a
    > >"classic" square frame.
    >
    > That certainly comes as news to me; I just use a stem with
    plenty of
    > forward extension.

    The compact frame is more of a problem for tall riders who get stuck with a short frame, a long seat
    post and a long threadless steerer and a long stem. The whole bike turns into a creaking extension
    ladder. And depending on the effective length of the TT, a tall rider ends up with his weight too
    far over the front wheel, which gives the bike poor handling, IMO. -- Jay Beattie.
     
  5. Carl Fogel

    Carl Fogel Guest

    "SMMB" <please.do.not.write@free.fr> wrote in message news:<c29jaj$m1h$1@news.tiscali.fr>...
    > "Carl Fogel" <carlfogel@comcast.net> a écrit dans le message de :
    > news:8bbde8fc.0403050006.12566bb5@posting.google.com...
    >
    >
    > > Dear Tom,
    > >
    > > My MawlRat bicycle needs no over-elaborate Teutonic machinery, with onomatopoeic names:
    > >
    > > "Schlumpf! goes the front transmission, collapsing and causing the rear hub to perform a
    > > disastrous rohl-off."
    > >
    >
    > I'd be curious to know how badly or how well the initial preparation was. What did you have to
    > adjust, etc., to feel secure before really taking it out.

    Dear Sandy,

    My initial preparation began with calling WatMarl and asking the lady who answered for the bicycle
    department, which flummoxed her. She was relieved when I suggested trying the sporting goods
    department, whose stalwart clerk assured me that there were $50 15-speed bicycles for sale and
    seemed puzzled when I asked how long it would take to put one together--ya just roll 'em up to the
    checkout stand, they're already assembled.

    At the store, I found three fine examples of China's answer to the Trek OCLV posing shyly on the
    upper rack. Only one had a manual attached, so I heaved it down, rolled it around, and found that
    the front tire went bump, possibly because the soggy chunk of thick rubber had been resting and
    deforming against the rack for too long.

    Rejecting it like a beauty queen with a pimple on the end of her nose, I stuck a pitchfork into the
    next bike and hoisted it down from the upper reaches of the barn. This one's seat was noticeably
    dusty, indicating an even longer sojourn on the display rack, but its tires so rolled smoothly that
    I forgave it for still having one of those round plastic shipping tabs on one side of its rear axle
    (I'm not sure whether "Consumer Reports" would call this a sample defect.)

    At home, I introduced the gigantic Schrrader valve tires to Mr. Air Compressor and settled for 55
    harsh psi, favoring ease of pedalling over the comfort offered by 40 psi. While stuffing air into
    the tires, I gave the axle bolts a tug and found them nicely snugged down.

    Then I got on it and rode off. The silly thing surprised me by how easily it pedalled, but it felt
    much smaller than my touring bike, despite its impressive weight.

    A sensible fellow would have promptly turned around, returned to the garage, and continued with pre-
    ride preparations, but instead I rode two blocks over to where a narrow road descends a short, steep
    s-bend gully to the Arkansas river and rolled down it to the river, hitting what felt like 30 mph, a
    bit slower than the usual 35 mph on my touring bike.

    I figured out how to work handle-bar mounted shifters, put it in low gear, trudged back up the hill,
    and went back to pre-race preparation.

    The chief problem was that the bike is really meant for boys about the size that I was at fourteen
    (the range is 10-17 years of age). An allen key loosened the handlebar stem and let me raise it a
    few inches. An adjustable wrench let me slide the seat further back on its rails. The seat post is
    the old-fashioned necked-down kind, so I pulled it out and compared it to ancient seat posts in a
    box of odds and ends. One of my old posts was the same size (from God knows what), but several
    inches longer, so I popped it into the bike after slathering grease on it, raised it to the limit
    mark, and put the seat back on it.

    Then I played on it for half an hour under the streetlight. It's much easier to balance standing
    still than my touring bike, but not as easy as my fondly remembered 5-speed Schwinn from 1968,
    partly because I'm old and out of practice and partly because of the narrow little handlebars.

    While balancing, I noticed that the raised stem seemed to flex a bit when I strained on it. I expect
    that Chalo Colina notices structural flex like this if he presses the buttons on his speedometer
    carelessly.

    Adding the speedometer was the biggest chore. I used a spare that I keep ready to replace the
    speedometer on my touring bike (they cost about $13 and die every few years). The elephantine front
    forks (think of a pair of tusks) required the biggest zip ties that I had handy, crude padding, and
    mounting the sensor magnet on the inside of the spoke-crossing, next to the hub.

    Propping it upside down on a pair of 2x4's, I admired its wheels. The rims are much narrower than
    the tires. Using a KMart spoke wrench, I pretended to true the rims, soothing them with half-
    remembered passages from "The Bicycle Wheel." There was perhaps an eighth of an inch of side wobble
    before I started, and arguably less when I finished. The trick is to concentrate on the rim and to
    ignore the fearsome rubber treads, which project sideways and may well be staggered, much like the
    teeth on a well-set saw.

    While there's no actual data supporting the spoke squeezing stress-relief theory, I gave all the
    spokes a friendly grope. None of them broke or seemed to resent the familiarity.

    Given my size, I feel that the seat-post substitution is within UCI rules. The effect of my wheel-
    truing is notoriously open to question. By evil coincidence, I'd broken my second drive-side spoke
    of the year on my touring bike that afternoon, something that I didn't mention to my new bicycle.
    (Doctors aren't required to mention that the previous patient died, so I feel reasonably ethical.)

    The first real ride went fine yesterday. Unfortunately, it began to rain last night, turned to snow,
    and is now a few inches deep, so I may not go riding today. On the other hand, I rode to school as a
    boy on days like this, so I may sneak off, since the roads are just wet.

    Carl Fogel
     
  6. Dan Brussee

    Dan Brussee Guest

    Proved the point there, didnt he? hehehe

    On 05 Mar 2004 14:03:12 GMT, vecchio51@aol.com (Qui si parla Campagnolo ) wrote:

    >bcdi-<< However, I do think that there are some traditionalists on this thread that merely want to
    >dismiss compact frames under the assumption that its all a smoke & mirrors marketing thing.
    >Usually, that's the last line of defense for an old fart to claim that new technology is all
    >marketing. >><BR><BR>
    >
    >clue-less.............
    >
    >Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    >(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  7. Brad Behm

    Brad Behm Guest

    Is compact geometry good for a riders with long legs and a short upper body?

    "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyboss@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:CWu0c.15545$aT1.11264@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    > Do people really like these ugly compact geometry bikes? When you stop at the stoplight, how do
    > you rest your leg on the top bar? We have some really long red lights around here. It's too
    > bad, now I wouldn't even consider buying a LeMond bike.
    >
    > The only thing in favor of it, is that you give the bike to a relative or as a hand me down,
    > because all you do is raise or lower the seat to fit them.
     
  8. Jeff Starr

    Jeff Starr Guest

    "Brad Behm" <bradbehmdeletethistoemailme@localnet.com> wrote in message news:<104icq3rvit8a93@corp.supernews.com>...
    > Is compact geometry good for a riders with long legs and a
    > short upper body?
    >

    Hi, what is good for the above mentioned "long legs and a
    short upper body" is the WSD frames offered by some
    manufacturers. Both Trek and LeMond offer WSD frames and I
    would think that there are others. Life is Good! Jeff
     
  9. In article <10c5841f.0403060637.34aa2bc5@posting.google.com>,
    jstarr@peoplepc.com (Jeff Starr) wrote:

    > "Brad Behm" <bradbehmdeletethistoemailme@localnet.com>
    > wrote in message
    > news:<104icq3rvit8a93@corp.supernews.com>...
    > > Is compact geometry good for a riders with long legs and
    > > a short upper body?
    > >
    >
    > Hi, what is good for the above mentioned "long legs and a
    > short upper body" is the WSD frames offered by some
    > manufacturers. Both Trek and LeMond offer WSD frames and I
    > would think that there are others. Life is Good! Jeff

    Yeah, but you have to ride a girl's bike. You don't ride a
    girl's bike, do you?

    The Pinarello was previously owned by a girl (she put a
    kickstand on it),
    --
    Ryan Cousineau, rcousine@sfu.ca
    http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/ President, Fabrizio
    Mazzoleni Fan Club
     
  10. Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca> wrote:
    > The Pinarello was previously owned by a girl (she put a
    > kickstand on it),

    hey, you've done much worse than put a kickstand on it. say,
    why isn't the kickstand still on it?
    --
    david reuteler reuteler@visi.com
     
  11. David Reuteler <reuteler@visi.com> wrote in
    news:404a0799$0$184$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com:

    > Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca> wrote:
    >> The Pinarello was previously owned by a girl (she put a
    >> kickstand on it),
    >
    > hey, you've done much worse than put a kickstand on it.
    > say, why isn't the kickstand still on it?

    You think it is not? He is the only guy in the Tues nite
    crits with a kick-stand.
     
  12. Mike Latondresse <mikelat@no_spamshaw.ca> wrote:
    > You think it is not? He is the only guy in the Tues nite
    > crits with a kick-stand.

    ack .. my bad. naturally i just assumed ...

    hey, there's really no way he can hold the presidency of
    fab's fan club and ride crits with a kickstand is there?
    purple forks, orange seats ok .. but this is beyond bad
    aesthetics. this weighs down the bike and costs time.

    it's time to stringly consider impeaching ryan.
    --
    david reuteler reuteler@visi.com
     
  13. David Reuteler <reuteler@visi.com> wrote in
    news:404a2d6e$0$41287$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com:

    > Mike Latondresse <mikelat@no_spamshaw.ca> wrote:
    >> You think it is not? He is the only guy in the Tues nite
    >> crits with a kick-stand.
    >
    > ack .. my bad. naturally i just assumed ...
    >
    > hey, there's really no way he can hold the presidency of
    > fab's fan club and ride crits with a kickstand is there?
    > purple forks, orange seats ok .. but this is beyond bad
    > aesthetics. this weighs down the bike and costs time.
    >
    > it's time to stringly consider impeaching ryan.

    No, no, no, he is Fabs alter ego.
     
  14. In article <Xns94A471F361B40mikelatshawca@24.69.255.211>,
    Mike Latondresse <mikelat@no_spamshaw.ca> wrote:

    > David Reuteler <reuteler@visi.com> wrote in
    > news:404a0799$0$184$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com:
    >
    > > Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca> wrote:
    > >> The Pinarello was previously owned by a girl (she put a
    > >> kickstand on it),
    > >
    > > hey, you've done much worse than put a kickstand on it.
    > > say, why isn't the kickstand still on it?
    >
    > You think it is not? He is the only guy in the Tues nite
    > crits with a kick-stand.

    Lies, all lies! None of my bikes have kick-stands.

    Though the Pinarello does have a bell.

    Which I used in last weekend's race,
    --
    Ryan Cousineau, rcousine@sfu.ca
    http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/ President, Fabrizio
    Mazzoleni Fan Club
     
  15. Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca> wrote:
    > Lies, all lies! None of my bikes have kick-stands.

    ok.

    > Though the Pinarello does have a bell.
    >
    > Which I used in last weekend's race,

    ok, that's funny. i can guess the context. was it well
    received?
    --
    david reuteler reuteler@visi.com
     
  16. In article <404a9614$0$41288$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>,
    David Reuteler <reuteler@visi.com> wrote:

    > Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca> wrote:
    > > Lies, all lies! None of my bikes have kick-stands.
    >
    > ok.
    >
    > > Though the Pinarello does have a bell.
    > >
    > > Which I used in last weekend's race,
    >
    > ok, that's funny. i can guess the context. was it well
    > received?

    In that particular race, I used it twice: once when we were
    overtaking a pair of dropped B-group riders (so everyone
    else is yelling "riders up!" as we pass, and I ring my bell.
    Everyone laughs).

    The other time was when I passed by my parents, who were out
    watching me race.

    -RjC.
    --
    Ryan Cousineau, rcousine@sfu.ca
    http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/ President, Fabrizio
    Mazzoleni Fan Club
     
  17. Brian S

    Brian S Guest

    vecchio51@aol.com (Qui si parla Campagnolo ) wrote in message news:<20040304090341.18347.00000644@mb-m06.aol.com>...
    > pete-<< So, you're implying that there is something WRONG
    > with compact bikes - other than aesthetics. Specifically,
    > what is it? >><BR><BR>
    >
    > Nothing 'wrong' but no probelm is being solved, no
    > question being answered by compact for the middle of the
    > bell curve rider, size wise. BUT when reading their
    > marketing drivel, they are lighter, stiffer, faster, more
    > complient, > The $ savings are not passed onto the rider.
    > If you want to reward a poorly performing industry, go
    > ahead but I prefer to reward an industry that does it
    > right, with the customer, not the board members, in mind.
    >

    > Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
    > Boulder, CO, 80302
    > (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali
    > costruite eccezionalmente bene"

    Compact frames perform better than standard frames when my
    extended carbon seat post eliminates more road buzz simply
    because the distance from seat tube to saddle is longer. I
    also appreciate the additional stand-over height. Because
    form follows function, these are more important to me than
    buying a classic frame with a horizontal TT. BTW, since the
    bike industry is in trouble, isn't it a good thing to reduce
    costs and boost margins? In a competitive industry, you can
    bet that these costs ARE being passed through (if not in
    price reductions then in a slowing of the pace at which
    retail prices keep rising). Aren't these three good reasons
    for a newbie (or a veteran)to get interested in biking,
    select a compact frame, and keep interested in it?
     
  18. "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyboss@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:CWu0c.15545$aT1.11264@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    > Do people really like these ugly compact geometry
    > bikes?

    It's not what people like that's important. It's that the
    compact frames save the manufacturer money. If every mass
    market manufacturer has only compact frames, then they've
    essentially forced you to either buy a compact frame, or
    move up-market to someone like Rivendell, or go to customs.
     
  19. Steven M. Scharf <scharf.steven@linkearth.net> wrote:
    > It's not what people like that's important. It's that the
    > compact frames save the manufacturer money. If every mass
    > market manufacturer has only compact frames, then they've
    > essentially forced you to either buy a compact frame, or
    > move up-market to someone like Rivendell, or go to
    > customs.

    errr, of course it's about what people like. if enuf people
    don't like compact frames enuf to pay some extra (most
    likely small) amount someone will step in to fill the niche.
    and that someone need not be rivendell or any other $$$
    custom manufacturer. they're not saving that *MUCH* money by
    selling compact frames.

    but if no one cares .. then no one cares.

    manufacturers can't force choices down your throat. imagine,
    ohh, say, ford only selling one model with one paint job.
    that may be cheaper but only lasts as long as, say, buick
    isn't around.
    --
    david reuteler reuteler@visi.com
     
  20. Robert Brown

    Robert Brown Guest

    David Reuteler wrote:

    ---8<----cut

    >
    > manufacturers can't force choices down your throat.
    > imagine, ohh, say, ford only selling one model with one
    > paint job. that may be cheaper but only lasts as long as,
    > say, buick isn't around.

    (David, pls excuse me for diverting your thread a bit ...)

    Maybe someone can help me understand one of the rumoured
    advantages with compact geometry frames - that they allow
    retailers to stock a lesser number of frame sizes, thus
    reducing inventory, capital bound up in stock, etc.

    This I do not understand.

    If we move a rider from a "regular" frame to a compact
    frame, preserving seat height, handlebar height, seat post
    angle, and top tube length, then assuming that same safety
    and aesthetic constraints apply re distance of handlebar
    stem from headset (1 - 3cm), then the only practical
    difference for the compact frame case is that a longer seat
    post is used.

    If we now put, say, a significantly shorter rider on this
    same bike, then this frame will not fit him/her. Sure, we
    can move the seat post down but we still need to move the
    handlebars down correspondingly, and this is not any more
    possible on a compact frame compared with a regular frame.

    So, even in the compact frame case, we have to find a
    smaller frame for our rider.

    This would mean that retailers still have to stock just as
    many frames as before, right?

    What gives?

    /Robert
     
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