Evidence overwhelmingly indicates Greg LeMond Doped....

[ozza121]

Listen I don't know you, so I won't respond in kind by name calling etc, I'd like to think I'm a bit more grown up and intelligent for that however I do find the whole supporting of Armstrong along with the stubbornness not to see past the veneer of the guy is shocking really. He and his "team" went after anyone who dared to speak the truth, and whether they were "destroyed" in the truest sense of the word is a debate without end. Whats undeniable are the amount of people that were seriously financially hammered by litigation, and having to defend their right to speak the truth. Armstrong is a narcissist who got his way through bullying, manipulating people and using his power to belittle people publicly whilst spinning his lie and making himself millions. In regards to Betsy, thankfully for all of us, she is one hell of a woman who doesn't give up, although seeing her breakdown numerous times under the most extreme pressure whilst Armstrong spun his lies and deflected the truth. (Armstrong and his team saying that Betsy was unstable and crazy, pretty disgusting stuff) That doesn't include his treatment of other cyclists who refused or spoke out, to be honest simply calling him a cheat and putting him in the "he's just a doper who got caught" camp is pretty outrageous. My opinion and it is just that, is there is a lot more that we don't know, the folding of the federal investigation stinks and I'd guess that Armstrong knows where the bodies are buried. As for lemond, there simply isn't anything apart from armstrong accusations (it's not like he's not got a history for lying or deflecting and being devious), his accusations about lemond having drink and drug problems, in fact lemond is on record saying that Armstrong (and I quote) "setup to destroy me every step of the way", lemond also talks about armstrongs influence and how it destroyed lemond cycles. Lemond talking about Armstrong "how could it be that my career collided with this guy and he (Armstrong) took everything away from me" There is nothing on lemond, just what I've read on here about how you have to have used epo to sort out an iron problem. There has been nothing from the peloton of old, when so many people have blown the whistle, there has been nothing from the press, who are and where all over cycling e,g. Walsh, in fact the only person is a stripped, banned narcissist cyclist whose lucky he isn't in jail, and of course his spin machine and a group of lance believers. I prefer to deal in facts than assumptions and wild stabs in the dark.

 

[SC Shout]

Originally Posted by ozza121

Listen I don't know you, so I won't respond in kind by name calling etc, I'd like to think I'm a bit more grown up and intelligent for that however I do find the whole supporting of Armstrong along with the stubbornness not to see past the veneer of the guy is shocking really.

He and his "team" went after anyone who dared to speak the truth, and whether they were "destroyed" in the truest sense of the word is a debate without end.

Whats undeniable are the amount of people that were seriously financially hammered by litigation, and having to defend their right to speak the truth. Armstrong is a narcissist who got his way through bullying, manipulating people and using his power to belittle people publicly whilst spinning his lie and making himself millions. In regards to Betsy, thankfully for all of us, she is one hell of a woman who doesn't give up, although seeing her breakdown numerous times under the most extreme pressure whilst Armstrong spun his lies and deflected the truth. (Armstrong and his team saying that Betsy was unstable and crazy, pretty disgusting stuff)


That doesn't include his treatment of other cyclists who refused or spoke out, to be honest simply calling him a cheat and putting him in the "he's just a doper who got caught" camp is pretty outrageous.

My opinion and it is just that, is there is a lot more that we don't know, the folding of the federal investigation stinks and I'd guess that Armstrong knows where the bodies are buried.

As for lemond, there simply isn't anything apart from armstrong accusations (it's not like he's not got a history for lying or deflecting and being devious), his accusations about lemond having drink and drug problems, in fact lemond is on record saying that Armstrong (and I quote) "setup to destroy me every step of the way", lemond also talks about armstrongs influence and how it destroyed lemond cycles. Lemond talking about Armstrong "how could it be that my career collided with this guy and he (Armstrong) took everything away from me"

There is nothing on lemond, just what I've read on here about how you have to have used epo to sort out an iron problem. There has been nothing from the peloton of old, when so many people have blown the whistle, there has been nothing from the press, who are and where all over cycling e,g. Walsh, in fact the only person is a stripped, banned narcissist cyclist whose lucky he isn't in jail, and of course his spin machine and a group of lance believers.

I prefer to deal in facts than assumptions and wild stabs in the dark.

It's not in any rulebook that you can't "bully", I highly doubt that word is even in there, so making "bullying" be part of your argument really means nothing, it's not illegal. Sure he cheated, yes he may have "bullied", but let's not try to make him worse then he is. Emma O'Reilly was super close with the whole team, she forgives him and is still his friend, so he is not nearly as bad as you try to make him out to be. People like you really try to dig to make LA sound worse then he really is and you all spout the same rhetoric....the fact is he cheated, he got caught....why can't you let it go? Are you going to spend the rest of your life condemning Lance Armstrong? There are MANY others that deserve peoples hate more then him.

Lemond was anemic. He suffered Anemia....ask him. If he recovered from Anemia during a race from a "shot of iron", then it would have been a miracle (not to even mention he wasn't even on a bike for two years leading up to that)....sorry, I don't believe in miracles, he is keeping the identity of who his doctor was a secret for a reason....he doped. If that offends you well, that is kind of the point.

Also, if you want proof that Lemond doped, then ask him who his doctor was and look up his records...that is your proof. How do you expect me to produce the Doctors records of Lemond using EPO when Lemond won't even tell anyone who his doctor was? He is hiding it...he has always been hiding it.

 

[ozza121]

There you go again, lobbing some names out "people like you" etc, pretty simple minded stuff really. What Armstrong did, and how he is as a human being doesn't keep me awake at night so don't fool yourself in believing that I'm as consumed with someone as insignificant as much as you seem to be, I have an opinion about him, built up from the numerous books, articles I've read and documentaries I've watched. You're right being a bully certainly isn't illegal (not sure I said it was) but it certainly paints a graphic picture of the mans character, doesn't it? What is illegal however, is lying under oath, and lying to a federal investigation. Are there really many more people that deserve the condemnation that Armstrong gets? A man that went out of his way to litigate anyone who said anything against him, who spun a lie about coming back from cancer to win the tour, and earnt millions from it? No I'm not sure there is really Debating this erroneous individual with you certainly is a waste of time and energy however, if you want to debate some of the points I raised in my second post feel free however lets do it in a mature, adult fashion, rather than name calling, pointing fingers and deflecting from the point, which very interestingly and in some way very apt is exactly what lance does? (You're not lance are you?) - I am just pulling your leg btw before you go off on one

 

[jpwkeeper]

Originally Posted by SC Shout

LOL, did you just say that LA "destroyed" Betsy Andreu? That is so not true, just ask Betsy, she told me she is NOT a victim. See that is the thing, there really aren't any victims, so people like you just make them up. pathetic. And Lemond was destroyed too? How? Lemond wasn't a victim of Lance Armstrong either, you are really desperate aren't you? There were no victims of Armstrong cheating other then other European dopers. Plus, Lemond cheated too, that is obvious, no one recovers from anemia during a race after getting a shot of iron...it was epo clearly, the entire peloton pretty much knew it then and they know it now.....And Lemond and Betsy are doing just fine, they aren't "destroyed" at all. Lance Armstrong didn't "destroy" anyone. Your exaggerations are amusing but extremely far from the mark. Lance cheated just like the other teams were cheating. Lance got caught just like the others too, the only difference is, Lance is paying millions and serving a lifetime ban where others guilty of the same offense got 6 months at the most, and many are still riding today. People like you just jump on the bandwagon and try to make yourself look good by condemning Lance Armstrong and only Lance Armstrong as if he is the only one in the history of cycling who ever doped....Newsflash: they all doped, and it only makes you look like an idiot.

While I'd have to agree that he didn't destroy Besty or Gregg (Frankie might have an argument, though), he did destroy, defame, and bankrupt a LOT of people, good people that often stood by him, even by his own admission. I guarantee that if he hadn't done that, we'd be having a very different Lance discussion right now. For that and that alone Lance deserves every ounce of what he's getting. He did apparently cost Gregg some money with his Trek deal, but that's about it.

That being said, Gregg is not exactly an angel either. As much as I want to like him, he makes it REALLY hard. He continues to publicly voice doubt about rider performances without any evidence other than computed average power numbers (rather than the real ones). He's done it to Contador (at the Vuelta) and Froome (at the TDF), and I think at least one other rider in the past (Horner at last year's Vuelta maybe?) few years, despite the fact that he himself couldn't pass that test on some of his rides. I'm just tired of him saying "Nobody has my Vo2Max, so if the produced better power numbers than I could have then they're obviously doping".

I'll take him over Lance; he may be slandering but he's not really having any impact, but boy am I ready for a new American rider to tear it up and not be a Jackass so I'll have someone to get behind and not feel dirty. Contador, Froome, and Wiggo aren't likable, Shleck feel off the map, and Horner is just too damn old (still pulling for him, though).

But then maybe that's just the type of person that generally excels at sports. They didn't call Eddie the cannibal for nothing. Maybe Big George would have won more if he'd been a bigger jerk. Even Jordon has been revealed by be an ass.

 

[jhuskey]

Hincapie lost my respect when he wheel-sucked an entire stage to win it. Not against the rules but not good form either.

 

[ozza121]

Jpwkeeper, great post You are very right, Armstrong wasn't the first and won't be the last cheat, pro cycling is littered with them, what sets him apart, by some distance is the other stuff. Cycling is certainly missing the characters of the past that made it such a special thing to watch, the pantanis (drugs excepting) seem to have left the sport, although I personally enjoy the likes of Sagan and of course "shut up legs" voight. I live over the other side of Atlantic, and whilst it's been great that a uk team has done so well, the dominance due yo the technical improvements has left me feeling a little meh, a little like indurian and his constant dominance of the grand tours down to his time trial ability. Still the tour hits the cobbles tomorrow (in the rain possibly) it will throw up some interesting challenges, and I am looking forward to contador and froome going head to head, when it hits the climbs. The great news in my opinion is the group of early twenty riders coming through from across the world, riding looks to be good for years to come, unfortunately with the media nowadays, the mad cyclist character we all love maybe long gone. Edit - re lemond, he does seem to have become a very bitter man as he gets older, certainly disappointing, and tarnishes a 3 times tour champion.

 

[SC Shout]

Are there really many more people that deserve the condemnation that Armstrong gets?


Wow, how about just open a newpaper or watch the news....people right next to you (or maybe even yourself) do much worse then Armstrong did on a daily basis and deserve worse condemnation then Armstrong. Do you really need someone to spell it all out for you? Are you trying to say that Armstrong shouldn't be forgiven and deserves the death penalty? Or that a lifetime ban and millions of dollars isn't enough blood for you? If that makes you feel good go ahead...I'm just pointing out your mentality. I believe that all cheaters should be treated the same. Lance Armstrong is the fall guy, people act as if he is the only one that ever doped....All the other dopers get a free pass, I don't see any hate posts on Jan Ullrich, or Floyd Landis, or *insert any other bike rider name here*

 

[ozza121]

Fella seriously get a grip of yourself

 

[SC Shout]

Why would I wan't to do that ma'am...I guess the truth might sting a bit at first but think about what I said and you will see that I make sense in time.

 

[ozza121]

Whats with all the name calling, constantly (are you sure you're not Armstrong, this seems very much like his modus operandi Can I suggest (politely) that you re read the points that I've made and you've chosen to ignore, I gave an opinion about Armstrong and the man he is, based on what I've read etc, it's fairly unemotional (unlike yours) and I would say fairly educated. I'm not even sure what "the truth might sting a bit" really means if I'm honest? Anyway as you seem keen to offer up advice (that I don't really understand) can I suggest you take an unemotional, balanced re look at Armstrong, it might help you reach an opinion that most of the universe (except the die hard Armstrong lover) , is taking. Anyway opinions are like arseholes, everyone's got them, the good thing is I don't have to look at yours (or listen to it), I'm pretty comfortable hat my opinion is formed on an educated look at what happened, not emotional mutterings Can I suggest if you want to continue with your emotional outbursts and name calling that you do it over private message, I'm pretty sure that most are getting bored with this (I certainly am)

 

[SC Shout]

I don't recall calling you a name but okay. You brought up a "point" that no one deserves more condemnation then Armstrong. I addressed that "point", what other "points" did you want me to address? We both know he cheated, we both know he was a bully, we both know the European teams were doing the exact same thing...so where do you want to go from there? Do you want him do be in prison for the rest of his life like a hard criminal? Maybe nail him to a cross to show how much hatred you have for him? Would you feel better then? I'm not really sure you have a point so it's hard to argue with you

 

[limerickman]

Originally Posted by SC Shout
Why would I wan't to do that ma'am...I guess the truth might sting a bit at first but think about what I said and you will see that I make sense in time.

You'd better start providing some evidence of what you claim is the truth, mate.

Or else you won't be pedalling half truths here for much longer. Clear?

 

[jpwkeeper]

Originally Posted by SC Shout

Lance Armstrong is the fall guy, people act as if he is the only one that ever doped....All the other dopers get a free pass, I don't see any hate posts on Jan Ullrich, or Floyd Landis, or *insert any other bike rider name here*

Point of contention; quite a few people here don't condemn Lance for doping, we condemn him for suing the living **** out of anyone who dared stand or speak against him, thus ruining their lives financially. He kinda IS the only one who did that.

There are hate posts on Floyd here if you look but they might be old; the dude's kinda messed up and took 2 mil from the public to defend himself when he was guilty as the day is long.

I seem to recall hearing that Jan had done a few Lance-like things in Germany, but I can't cite anything to back that up. So unless someone can, from where I sit Jan just rode and stayed quiet and didn't really ruin anyone, so no real hate for the dude.

 

[jpwkeeper]

Originally Posted by ozza121

Jpwkeeper, great post

You are very right, Armstrong wasn't the first and won't be the last cheat, pro cycling is littered with them, what sets him apart, by some distance is the other stuff.

Cycling is certainly missing the characters of the past that made it such a special thing to watch, the pantanis (drugs excepting) seem to have left the sport, although I personally enjoy the likes of Sagan and of course "shut up legs" voight.

I live over the other side of Atlantic, and whilst it's been great that a uk team has done so well, the dominance due yo the technical improvements has left me feeling a little meh, a little like indurian and his constant dominance of the grand tours down to his time trial ability.

Still the tour hits the cobbles tomorrow (in the rain possibly) it will throw up some interesting challenges, and I am looking forward to contador and froome going head to head, when it hits the climbs.

The great news in my opinion is the group of early twenty riders coming through from across the world, riding looks to be good for years to come, unfortunately with the media nowadays, the mad cyclist character we all love maybe long gone.

Edit - re lemond, he does seem to have become a very bitter man as he gets older, certainly disappointing, and tarnishes a 3 times tour champion.

You know, I kinda feel bad though. Of the list I quoted earlier, Froome was the most likeable (if unexciting) of the bunch and now he's out of the Tour due to dumb luck.

 

[jhuskey]

Jan attempted to go away without a lot of turmoil but the German media hounded him.
If Armstrong had kept his ego in check and stayed retired he may, and I stress may, have retained his titles. I know it would have been a lie but maybe his foundation and others would not have suffered as much.

 

[parkansas]

Please explain your relationship to Betsy Andreu, given that you cite her and state she told you she was not NOT harmed by Armstrong. Any one who finished behind a doped rider and lost a position in a race was harmed. If a a doped rider was riding against against a non-doped rider, and finished in front of that rider, wouldn't that be damaging to the non-doped rider? That's damaging in the legal sense, I believe.

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by parkansas
Please explain your relationship to Betsy Andreu, given that you cite her and state she told you she was not NOT harmed by Armstrong. Any one who finished behind a doped rider and lost a position in a race was harmed. If a a doped rider was riding against against a non-doped rider, and finished in front of that rider, wouldn't that be damaging to the non-doped rider? That's damaging in the legal sense, I believe.

Yes, and please explain your relationship to Emma O'Reilly. Forgiving someone is not synonymous with being "his friend". The jackass in question did not acknowledge his wrong to Emma until the Oprah interview in which he admitted he owed her a huge apology in person. Emma forgave him because she was ready to move on with her life, hardly the result of any admission by any friend. LA gets to sleep in whatever bed he made for himself. That's coming from a fellow swanny... we give our heart and souls for these riders, don't **** us at the drive thru, we'll **** you right back.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

I like Greg. I like Lance.

Greg's a whiner and Lance is a doper.

Whoopteedoo. Both were great cyclists.

Quote by SCshout:
"Are there really many more people that deserve the condemnation that Armstrong gets?"

Denny Menchov will still find his way into heaven and Contador still loves him some Spanish beef.

Lance is considered to be the consummate asshole of cycling and he pisses a lot of people off. For YEARS. And YEARS.

And for that, I will be eternally grateful to Big Tex.

 

[danfoz]

Interview with Emma after LA speaks to Oprah...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-2264832/Lance-Armstrong-scandal-Emma-OReilly-Oprah-interview.html

Excerpt:
He told Oprah he couldn’t remember suing me, but I don’t believe that for a second. I thought Lance was going to ruin me, take everything I had away. My house, my business.

My boyfriend at the time was great because he never told me to back down. But it was hard on him. He suffers with MS and the stress on him only made his illness worse.

One day we had a visit from Lance’s lawyer. He expressed surprise that the paparazzi weren’t parked outside my house. I told him the paparazzi had no interest in cycling. He said it would only take a phone call to get them there and when I then suggested they might not take too kindly to my pet Dobermann, he suggested that too could be taken care of with a bit of steak. It was a clear threat.

I may differ in my views from some others in that the doping wasn't really what bothered me, and I don't think the heavily punitive measure of stripping his TDF titles had everything to do with that either. It reminds me of an article I read on some out of control teen meth head who went before the judge facing an initial sentence for 6 months but after back talking and giving him the finger had managed in the span of five minutes through her own gross contempt to work her incarceration up to two years.

There was however a portion of the Emma interview I'm glad I read that shows once upon a time something honorable lived inside LA, at least on a personal level, and hopefully someday he can recover whatever of that is left:
I remember being at a party at Lance’s house in Nice some years earlier. My boyfriend at the time, who would then become my husband but is now my ex-husband, left the party later that night to go to a strip club. Lance was so angry with him, and told me as much. He said I deserved better than that. That he had shown me a serious lack of respect. Back then, of course, Lance was my friend.

 

[Sandamal]

Logical reasons supporting why Greg Lemond is a clean rider: 1. Most people who decide to dope, get better results...often coming from mediocrity to get stunning results...a few go from pretty decent to really great. With the arrival of EPO in cycling (1990), Greg's results start to decline rapidly. And Greg didn't come from obscurity: his very first attempt at the tour (1984) was unlucky...he got bronchitis in the first week and finishes in 3rd place! If that's not class, I dont't know what is. Armstrong couldn't finish his first tour when he was healthy. Greg's career tanks with EPO and Armstrong's gets better. Hmmm. For those of you who don't know your cycling history...please understand that you are making assumptions about things with little useful information. EPO was available 2 years prior to 1990 but didn't reach cycling until early 1990...we know this because Dutch riders were dying in their sleep in 1990 because their doctors didn't know ow to dose properly. Lemond didn't even win a stage in 1990...he was unspectacular but managed to win because he was consistent. 2. Lemond on EPO would have been f-ing off the hook! Watch Contador and Schleck doing track stands on the final climb of a mountain stage. Those are antics that are unheard of in a Tours de Fance. Watch the 1986, 1989 and 1990 tours. What you see is Lemond struggling to win. Lemond on EPO would have been stupid-crazy-demonic-sick-fast: this simply was not seen. 3. Lemond behaves exactly opposite to every doper who has ever lived: he doesn't keep quiet, hide. Instead he makes noise. He speaks out. He whines. He goes after Armstrong! Lemond lives his 'after-cycling life' as a person who has no ghosts in his closet. 4. At 5'-7" tall, Lemond has the highest recorded VO2max of any cyclist at any time...ever. This is much better than Indurain who is 6'-2". He was trained by the best coach (Guimard)...mentored by the best rider at the time (Hinault). He dosen't need the 'edge' that drugs of his time promised. 5. Lemond's overall career results are underwhelming for a rider of his repute. Not consistent with cheaters who steal results. 6. He never failed a doping test, was implicated in anything, rumored about, associated with, tainted by anything related to drugs, EPO, dubious doctors...ever. Armstrong went after any and all information that could implicate Lemond. Nothing has turned up. Dopers behave like dopers: agressive, reclusive, controlling. lemond is the 180 degree opposite of this. 7. The drugs available in Lemond's time were easily detectable. People who doped at that time were inconsistent. Lemond was always consistent. I understand that the simple thing to say is hat everyone dopes...but that is simply not true. Please read 'A Rough Ride' by Paul Kimmage and Fignon's tell all book. You will see that even Fignon raced the 1989 tour clean...and he admitted to taking certain drugs at certain times but never during a race. Lemond is a very special rider of very high class...with a physiology that would have rivaled Merckx. But he was unlucky and too nice.