High 5-minute power; Increasing FTP?

[Bullseye_blam]

Hello,

I probably already know the answer to my question, but I suppose I'm just looking for a bit of validation through personal experience of members here.

A week ago, I hit a 5-minute power of 365 watts [average] over a short 2.3 mile course. However, my FTP, as I tested it yesterday with a one hour effort, was 230 watts. I don't see how I could have squeezed out more than another 5-10 watts from the one-hour FTP effort, and it wouldn't surprise me if my 5-minute power was actually higher than what I tested. I weigh 79 kilograms.

At any rate, I think the solution to raising my FTP is probably lots of sustained, 1-2 hour hard efforts at FTP/near-FTP pace; I imagine I have not done enough of these so far yet in my training.

I'm just wondering if there could be other reasons [of course, there always can be] for this; I'm guessing part of it has to do with the fact that I've only been training for about 6 months to a year.

Other ideas:

- I have more of a sprinter's build [very large thighs]
- my mother has exercised related asthma, and I think I have symptoms, although it seems that it would have the opposite effect on my power [i.e. FTP would be a larger percentage of 5 minute power]

Thanks in advance for any thoughts,

-Eric

 

[Woofer]

Hello,

I probably already know the answer to my question, but I suppose I'm just looking for a bit of validation through personal experience of members here.

A week ago, I hit a 5-minute power of 365 watts [average] over a short 2.3 mile course. However, my FTP, as I tested it yesterday with a one hour effort, was 230 watts. I don't see how I could have squeezed out more than another 5-10 watts from the one-hour FTP effort, and it wouldn't surprise me if my 5-minute power was actually higher than what I tested. I weigh 79 kilograms.

At any rate, I think the solution to raising my FTP is probably lots of sustained, 1-2 hour hard efforts at FTP/near-FTP pace; I imagine I have not done enough of these so far yet in my training.

I'm just wondering if there could be other reasons [of course, there always can be] for this; I'm guessing part of it has to do with the fact that I've only been training for about 6 months to a year.

Other ideas:

- I have more of a sprinter's build [very large thighs]
- my mother has exercised related asthma, and I think I have symptoms, although it seems that it would have the opposite effect on my power [i.e. FTP would be a larger percentage of 5 minute power]

Thanks in advance for any thoughts,

-Eric

Search for SST in this forum.

One clarification - what kind of course do you have that let's you go all out for one hour? It can be difficult to find somewhere where one does not have to slow due to traffic conditions/terrain (hard to press as much on some downhills).

 

[bikeguy]

2 things

1) Your 5 minute power isn't high, but it's decent.
2) You need to go on long rides several days per week of 3 hrs plus. Your endurance is awful. Long rides will improve it, and probably drop your weight.

Of course long rides may not be possible due to time constraints in which case just try to do a long ride when you can.

I used to have a similar relatively higher 5 minute power, three years of training and I can pop off 150 km at a good clip and not feel particularly tired at the end.

-bikeguy

 

[Woofer]

2 things

1) Your 5 minute power isn't high, but it's decent.
2) You need to go on long rides several days per week of 3 hrs plus. Your endurance is awful. Long rides will improve it, and probably drop your weight.

Of course long rides may not be possible due to time constraints in which case just try to do a long ride when you can.

I used to have a similar relatively higher 5 minute power, three years of training and I can pop off 150 km at a good clip and not feel particularly tired at the end.

-bikeguy

I interpreted it to mean relatively high to his FTP on the Coggan profile.

 

[Bullseye_blam]

I interpreted it to mean relatively high to his FTP on the Coggan profile.

Yes, you are correct. I'm not patting myself on the back here.

And to your earlier comment, I have a 3.5 mile road looping around an airport that's almost totally flat and there are no stops. I only recently discovered it, and I'll be using it more often to do SST training.

Bikeguy: I think you are right. However, I am debating whether 3+ hours is necessary when compared to 1-2 hour efforts at close to FTP. At any rate, thanks for sharing a hint at your own power profile. In your experience, has your 5-minute power also increased in the past several years, along with increases in FTP?

-Eric

 

[peterpen]

...

At any rate, I think the solution to raising my FTP is probably lots of sustained, 1-2 hour hard efforts at FTP/near-FTP pace; I imagine I have not done enough of these so far yet in my training....

Such efforts are extremely taxing, to the point of negatively impacting your workout the next day. They also aren't much fun - but if that's all the time you have, they might be the best bang for your buck.

Ideally, I'd recommend the lovable 2x 20m, 3x 15m, and 4x 10m intervals, mixed into rides of 2 - 3.5hrs. As bikeguy points out, your 5m power is not so high that it indicates any type of natural ability for such efforts - it's more that your FTP reflects the fact that you just began riding, and your 5m power only looks high in comparison.

 

[BullGod]

Such efforts are extremely taxing, to the point of negatively impacting your workout the next day. They also aren't much fun - but if that's all the time you have, they might be the best bang for your buck.

Ideally, I'd recommend the lovable 2x 20m, 3x 15m, and 4x 10m intervals, mixed into rides of 2 - 3.5hrs. As bikeguy points out, your 5m power is not so high that it indicates any type of natural ability for such efforts - it's more that your FTP reflects the fact that you just began riding, and your 5m power only looks high in comparison.

I concur with Bikeguy and Peterpen, but I am not sure that you need to regularly be doing 3 hr rides.....since I took on a new job I can only really train 2 hrs max on weeknights, and on the weekends I am mainly racing crits of 1-2hrs length, so I never really ride more than 2 hrs anymore.....

I upped the intensity of my workouts, and a week looks like (mon recovery 1 hr, tues - club race 1h 45, weds - L4 with L6 30 second efforts, thursday 1.5 hrs L4"ish", Fri rest, sat/sun crits....

since i adopted this my speed and performance have shot up! I know I have a great endurance base from years of longer rides, but in terms of speed, and the ability to handle repeated hard efforts my ability is greater now.

I figure that if my races are no longer than 2 hrs why do I need to train for 3?

regarding this debate - I have a somewhat "low" 5 min power vs FTP.....340 ish FTP, 400 5 mins if I'm motivated....

 

[shawndoggy]

Such efforts are extremely taxing, to the point of negatively impacting your workout the next day. They also aren't much fun - but if that's all the time you have, they might be the best bang for your buck.

Mentally taxing yes, but to the point of negatively affecting your next workout? Not IME. I did variants of this stuff all winter long on the trainer (or rollers) in a dark garage before the sun came up. Pretty much did 4 or 5 weekday workouts a week like this, along with a long saturday ride outdoors and skiing on Sunday. It's doable. Generally (for me, IME, YMMV, etc.) whether I did the full five days or needed a day off was dictated by whether I needed to recover from skiing.

Though truth be told when I was thinking of trying to do 2x20s or whatever threshold intervals outdoors on flat ground, THAT sounds very hard! Too many opportunities to coast or let up with a tailwind or a slight descent....

 

[Animator]

Though truth be told when I was thinking of trying to do 2x20s or whatever threshold intervals outdoors on flat ground, THAT sounds very hard! Too many opportunities to coast or let up with a tailwind or a slight descent....

I'm glad it's not just me that finds this aspect of 2x20s challenging. Just yesterday I was chugging along great at a new PB pace until I turned into a tailwind and my power plummeted. To think -- I used to love tailwinds! Well, still do come race day...

 

[dkrenik]

Yes, you are correct. I'm not patting myself on the back here.

And to your earlier comment, I have a 3.5 mile road looping around an airport that's almost totally flat and there are no stops. I only recently discovered it, and I'll be using it more often to do SST training.

I'd take a look at a thread I started called "Frustrated with FTP Progress". I received some very valuable advice there.

 

[peterpen]

Mentally taxing yes, but to the point of negatively affecting your next workout? Not IME. I did variants of this stuff all winter long on the trainer (or rollers) in a dark garage before the sun came up. Pretty much did 4 or 5 weekday workouts a week like this, along with a long saturday ride outdoors and skiing on Sunday. It's doable. Generally (for me, IME, YMMV, etc.) whether I did the full five days or needed a day off was dictated by whether I needed to recover from skiing.

Though truth be told when I was thinking of trying to do 2x20s or whatever threshold intervals outdoors on flat ground, THAT sounds very hard! Too many opportunities to coast or let up with a tailwind or a slight descent....

Hmm, so you did 4 or 5 workouts during the week of "1-2 hour hard efforts at FTP/near-FTP pace" (quote from OP) ? I'm interpreting that to be 1 hr at FTP and 2hrs >95% FTP. Now wonder you're kicking @ss this year, Shawn!

To be honest, I've never done consecutive days of 40k TT's but I'd imagine they'd be rather difficult and I'd be surprised if one didn't start seeing a decline in power by day 3 or 4. (As I write this, I realize that the NP/TSS theory would say otherwise, however.)

I do know that if I do the local Tuesday night worlds (2x 30m crits where my NP for the total 60m usually is a bit higher than my FTP and AP is ~95% FTP) I feel pretty fried the next day and usually schedule easier endurance rides vs. say, a hard day of climbing intervals. Perhaps that is due to the increased NM and supra-threshold demands of crits?

@Bullgod - I agree that if the OP's targets are crits or he's time-constrained, riding longer than 3hrs isn't 'essential' but I think you point to their possible benefit when you mention your "great endurance base from years of longer rides." The OP doesn't have this - and probably could use it

 

[shawndoggy]

Hmm, so you did 4 or 5 workouts during the week of "1-2 hour hard efforts at FTP/near-FTP pace" (quote from OP) ? I'm interpreting that to be 1 hr at FTP and 2hrs >95% FTP. Now wonder you're kicking @ss this year, Shawn!

Well if only my @ss wasn't so big you skinny kids would quit handing it to me. Yes, I'd do something like this:
M: (optional based on whether I was worked from skiing) 90@90%
T: 3x20@FTP
W: 60@95%FTP
TH: 90@90%+FTP
Fr: 3x25 (first 20 of each at 90%, last five at 105%)

To be honest, I've never done consecutive days of 40k TT's but I'd imagine they'd be rather difficult and I'd be surprised if one didn't start seeing a decline in power by day 3 or 4. (As I write this, I realize that the NP/TSS theory would say otherwise, however.)

9 months ago I would have said the exact same thing. That a single 40K hurt so bad that there's no way I could do 'em back to back. The thing with SST is that it's OK to go at a little under the bleeding edge, and that you can break the efforts up into palatable portions.

Plus, IIRC, you carry such a freaking high CTL, that this stuff should be no sweat physiologically.

I do know that if I do the local Tuesday night worlds (2x 30m crits where my NP for the total 60m usually is a bit higher than my FTP and AP is ~95% FTP) I feel pretty fried the next day and usually schedule easier endurance rides vs. say, a hard day of climbing intervals. Perhaps that is due to the increased NM and supra-threshold demands of crits?

'zactly. At Tour de Nez, I my NP was about 95% of FTP, and I was "not so fresh" on Sunday (probably had a little to do with the road rash I picked up too ). At Nevada City my NP matched my FTP (as determined by my tapered-for District TT AP) exactly, and I was hosed afterwards. That race is 100% on or off, so lots of variability (AP was about 70% of NP). But those 90@90% workouts, really, I think I could do those nearly infinitely recovery-wise.

I'd also point out that if you AP is 95% of FTP in a crit.... well, you're probably doing something "wrong" (in quotes cuz that could obviously be intentional). But that's a different thread....

 

[Bullseye_blam]

Thanks for the replies so far. They are definitely encouraging.

But those 90@90% workouts, really, I think I could do those nearly infinitely recovery-wise.

Hmm... My opinion is that 90@90%, based on your description, my gut, and the Monod/Scherrer CP model, would tell me that you are perhaps not training hard enough.

For example, my CP model tells me my FTP should be around 248, and the 90m power given is 246 watts, which is a very small difference. Should you not increase your intensity for 90 minutes to be somewhere closer to 91-92% of FTP?

I imagine there would be trade-offs [might not be as easy to recover from], but I think if I were to do such a workout, I'd shoot for that slightly increased intensity.

-Eric

 

[shawndoggy]

Should you not increase your intensity for 90 minutes to be somewhere closer to 91-92% of FTP?

Well within the +/- 3% accuracy of my PT. Close enough my friend.

 

[Bullseye_blam]

Well within the +/- 3% accuracy of my PT. Close enough my friend.

This really has nothing to do with the accuracy of your PT; I was suggesting this based off of your aerobic/anaerobic capacity as predicted by the model. I'm simply saying that I think you are cutting yourself short. You may disagree of course, but I don't think the accuracy of the power meter has anything to do with it.



-Eric

 

[daveryanwyoming]

This really has nothing to do with the accuracy of your PT; ... I don't think the accuracy of the power meter has anything to do with it....

Say what??? What point is there in defining any target more accurately than you can make the measurement. I guess you haven't spent a lot of time around test and measurement equipment. Quibbling over 90% vs. 91% or 92% is meaningless if it's not possible to measure your power output to that accuracy. Besides all the fitness adaptations lie on a continuum and you'd be hard pressed to prove the effectiveness of training at 91% of FTP vs. 90% for a given duration assuming the measurement equipment existed to actually fine tune your efforts that closely.

 

[dkrenik]

This really has nothing to do with the accuracy of your PT; I was suggesting this based off of your aerobic/anaerobic capacity as predicted by the model. I'm simply saying that I think you are cutting yourself short. You may disagree of course, but I don't think the accuracy of the power meter has anything to do with it.



-Eric

Actually it does. The difference between 90% FTP and 92% FTP isn't discernible via most PM's. Their accuracy falls with +/-1.5% (a 3% range) for PT's with SRM's, generally, at +/-2% (4% range).

Now do you see what Shawndoggy is getting at?

 

[peterpen]

... The thing with SST is that it's OK to go at a little under the bleeding edge, and that you can break the efforts up into palatable portions.
....
I'd also point out that if you AP is 95% of FTP in a crit.... well, you're probably doing something "wrong" (in quotes cuz that could obviously be intentional). But that's a different thread....

I dunno, maybe I'll have to give the SST stuff a shot. But I kinda think I'm nt tough enough for it. And yeah, Tuesday nights are strictly for suffering, not for trying win. I let my sprinter boys try to do that.

 

[shawndoggy]

I dunno, maybe I'll have to give the SST stuff a shot. But I kinda think I'm nt tough enough for it.

20 watt boost in FTP for me this year, after "training" seriously (or so I thought) for the past five. I'm a believer.

 

[batman220]

So question kind of related to this old thread:

I have better 5m power (345-350w) than 20m power (275-285w) and subsequent estimate of FTP. At 76.8 kg. I am able to put out higher power then most people in my category for shorter periods, can do them more often and recover better from them. But the longer efforts of 10 minutes and above I am heavier and am not as good holding that long of a consistent effort.

My coach provides VO2 intervals such as 40/20s, 30/30s, 20/40s, 1-2m, etc. as 120%-140% of FTP.

QUESTION: Since I have a higher 5m power compared to FTP, Should I error on the side of higher power for the V02 intervals?

An example might be 4 reps of 40/20s @ 120% or 304 watts, 4 reps of 30/30s @130% or 329 watts, and 4 reps of 20/40s @ 140% or 354 watts with 5 minutes rest in between.