Insurance

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by john.somerfield@virginmobile.com, May 17, 2005.

  1. Do I need insurance, and if so what sort (and where from)?

    I am organising, and leading, two teams on attempts to complete the
    Welsh 3000's this summer. I have no formal MLTB qualifications,
    although by and large the teams are experienced walkers (some more so
    than me!)and include people with experience from organising events such
    as the 10 Tors.

    Thanks

    John
     
    Tags:


  2. Lindsay

    Lindsay Guest

    If you are leading a group, and it doesn't matter who they are, you
    have a "duty of care".

    If you fail to carry out your duties and someone gets injured as result
    of your instructions/decisions you leave yourself open to be sued.

    It is not necessary to have insurance but it protects your property if
    you do have Civil Liability Insurance, which unfortunately is
    expensive. Before you can obtain insurance you need to carry out a
    'Risk Assessment'.

    The Insurance Compnay I use is Perkins Slade in Birmingham.

    Insurance Companies that are prepared to insure you for this type of
    activity are few and far between.

    www.caledoniahilltreks.com
     
  3. "If you fail to carry out your duties and someone gets injured as
    result of your instructions/decisions you leave yourself open to be
    sued."

    Is it possible to get group members to sign a document stating they are
    aware of the risks and therefore forego the right to sue?"
     
  4. Mike Clark

    Mike Clark Guest

    In message <1116347757.964418.106120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
    "fen4b0y@yahoo.co.uk" <fen4b0y@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

    > "If you fail to carry out your duties and someone gets injured as
    > result of your instructions/decisions you leave yourself open to be
    > sued."
    >
    > Is it possible to get group members to sign a document stating they are
    > aware of the risks and therefore forego the right to sue?"
    >


    Yes but it isn't worth the paper it is written on. The duty of care is
    one that can't be removed and so even if someone signed such a piece of
    paper they could still sue after the fact. It is written into law for
    very good reason for example so as to prevent an employer from failing
    to care for the safety of their employees by attempting to place them
    under contract not to sue.

    The only impact that such a document might have, is it might be used as
    evidence to argue for a reduction in the size of compensation if the
    person acknowledged some personal risk assessment. However the duty of
    third party care still remains.

    --
    o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
    <\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
    "> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
    ` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"
     
  5. Bryan Hall

    Bryan Hall Guest

    I run a work based walking club at work - we use the same approach - it's
    part of the club joining requirements for new members to accept the
    associated risks and liability.

    We tried every other way to sort this out, but without spending most of the
    budget for the year this was the only way to handle it.

    After all - we figure we never force anyone to join, and they should accept
    a degree of responsibility for their involvement and actions.

    Sort of like dealing with grown-ups
    ;-)

    <fen4b0y@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:1116347757.964418.106120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
    > "If you fail to carry out your duties and someone gets injured as
    > result of your instructions/decisions you leave yourself open to be
    > sued."
    >
    > Is it possible to get group members to sign a document stating they are
    > aware of the risks and therefore forego the right to sue?"
    >
     
  6. Mike Clark

    Mike Clark Guest

    In message <Frpie.6705$X86.592@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>
    "Bryan Hall" <bryan.hall9getridofme@ntlworld.com> wrote:

    > I run a work based walking club at work - we use the same approach - it's
    > part of the club joining requirements for new members to accept the
    > associated risks and liability.


    But it doesn't absolve you of a duty of care.

    >
    > We tried every other way to sort this out, but without spending most
    > of the budget for the year this was the only way to handle it.


    But you haven't removed the risk of litigation. On top of that, if you
    are a formal club with a recognised membership, then every member may
    have equal liability in law. Thus any club member could potentially loss
    their personal assetts (e.g. their home) if the club is sued, even if
    that member were not involved in the incident. It's one reason why you
    should take out the club 3rd party liability insurance if you join a
    club.

    >
    > After all - we figure we never force anyone to join, and they should
    > accept a degree of responsibility for their involvement and actions.


    That is true, but it still doesn't absolve you of all risks associated
    with 3rd party liabilities or a duty of care.

    --
    o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
    <\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
    "> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
    ` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"
     
  7. Bryan Hall

    Bryan Hall Guest

    Got any reference website suggestions for this Mike?
    If i go back with this i suspect it's reopening a huge can of worms, and
    potential closure of the club
    <gulp>

    "Mike Clark" <mrc7@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
    news:6085916c4d.mrc7offline@mrc7acorn1.path.cam.ac.uk...
    > In message <Frpie.6705$X86.592@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>
    > "Bryan Hall" <bryan.hall9getridofme@ntlworld.com> wrote:
    >
    > > I run a work based walking club at work - we use the same approach -

    it's
    > > part of the club joining requirements for new members to accept the
    > > associated risks and liability.

    >
    > But it doesn't absolve you of a duty of care.
    >
    > >
    > > We tried every other way to sort this out, but without spending most
    > > of the budget for the year this was the only way to handle it.

    >
    > But you haven't removed the risk of litigation. On top of that, if you
    > are a formal club with a recognised membership, then every member may
    > have equal liability in law. Thus any club member could potentially loss
    > their personal assetts (e.g. their home) if the club is sued, even if
    > that member were not involved in the incident. It's one reason why you
    > should take out the club 3rd party liability insurance if you join a
    > club.
    >
    > >
    > > After all - we figure we never force anyone to join, and they should
    > > accept a degree of responsibility for their involvement and actions.

    >
    > That is true, but it still doesn't absolve you of all risks associated
    > with 3rd party liabilities or a duty of care.
    >
    > --
    > o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
    > <\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
    > "> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
    > ` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"
     
  8. Dave Pickles

    Dave Pickles Guest

    Mike Clark wrote:

    >> We tried every other way to sort this out, but without spending most
    >> of the budget for the year this was the only way to handle it.

    >
    > But you haven't removed the risk of litigation. On top of that, if you
    > are a formal club with a recognised membership, then every member may
    > have equal liability in law. Thus any club member could potentially loss
    > their personal assetts (e.g. their home) if the club is sued, even if
    > that member were not involved in the incident. It's one reason why you
    > should take out the club 3rd party liability insurance if you join a
    > club.


    Isn't that a different issue? Third-party liability comes into play if, for
    example, a member of the group leaves a farm gate insecure, allowing stock
    out onto the road causing an accident. Several organisations (Ramblers is
    one) offer group insurance against such risks. Insurance against the group
    being sued by its own members is an altogether trickier proposition.
    --
    Dave
     
  9. Jhimmy

    Jhimmy Guest

    "Mike Clark" <mrc7@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
    news:6085916c4d.mrc7offline@mrc7acorn1.path.cam.ac.uk...
    > In message <Frpie.6705$X86.592@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>
    > "Bryan Hall" <bryan.hall9getridofme@ntlworld.com> wrote:
    >
    >> I run a work based walking club at work - we use the same approach - it's
    >> part of the club joining requirements for new members to accept the
    >> associated risks and liability.

    >
    > But it doesn't absolve you of a duty of care.
    >
    >>
    >> We tried every other way to sort this out, but without spending most
    >> of the budget for the year this was the only way to handle it.

    >
    > But you haven't removed the risk of litigation. On top of that, if you
    > are a formal club with a recognised membership, then every member may
    > have equal liability in law. Thus any club member could potentially loss
    > their personal assetts (e.g. their home) if the club is sued, even if
    > that member were not involved in the incident. It's one reason why you
    > should take out the club 3rd party liability insurance if you join a
    > club.
    >
    >>
    >> After all - we figure we never force anyone to join, and they should
    >> accept a degree of responsibility for their involvement and actions.

    >
    > That is true, but it still doesn't absolve you of all risks associated
    > with 3rd party liabilities or a duty of care.


    Mike, sorry to put this onto you, as you're clearly not a lawyer from your
    sig, but do you know how this would affect any uk.rec.walking expedition?

    For example, just by offering to organise the campsite, would this also
    constitute a duty of care? Also the uk.rec.walking day out - how is this
    affected?

    Jhimmy.
     
  10. Mike Clark

    Mike Clark Guest

    In message <428a34e0$0$24474$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk>
    Dave Pickles <davep@cyw.uklinux.net> wrote:

    > Mike Clark wrote:
    >
    > >> We tried every other way to sort this out, but without spending most
    > >> of the budget for the year this was the only way to handle it.

    > >
    > > But you haven't removed the risk of litigation. On top of that, if you
    > > are a formal club with a recognised membership, then every member may
    > > have equal liability in law. Thus any club member could potentially loss
    > > their personal assetts (e.g. their home) if the club is sued, even if
    > > that member were not involved in the incident. It's one reason why you
    > > should take out the club 3rd party liability insurance if you join a
    > > club.

    >
    > Isn't that a different issue? Third-party liability comes into play if, for
    > example, a member of the group leaves a farm gate insecure, allowing stock
    > out onto the road causing an accident. Several organisations (Ramblers is
    > one) offer group insurance against such risks. Insurance against the group
    > being sued by its own members is an altogether trickier proposition.


    Both risks carry a liability on members of the Club. If somebody decides
    to sue, whether they are in the club or a party outside of the club,
    then most lawyers would advise suing a party which has the resources to
    pay compensation in the result that the claim is successful. So if the
    members of the club have assets then they are potential targets for
    litigation. This affects all clubs, and is the reason that some go for
    incorporation with limited liability so as to limit the risks only to
    loss of club fees. But this option is not easily available to smaller
    clubs and societies.

    --
    o/ \\ // || ,_ o Mike Clark, "An antibody engineer who also
    <\__,\\ // __o || / /\, likes the mountains"
    "> || _`\<,_ // \\ \> | Cambridge Climbing and Caving Club
    ` || (_)/ (_) // \\ \_ <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/cccc/>
     
  11. "most lawyers would advise suing a party which has the resources to pay
    compensation in the result that the claim is successful"

    Just about sums up the "cotton-wool","sue" culture we appear to have
    adopted from the other side of the pond!!
     
  12. Mike Clark

    Mike Clark Guest

    In message <nuqie.6749$X86.1811@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>
    "Bryan Hall" <bryan.hall9getridofme@ntlworld.com> wrote:

    > Got any reference website suggestions for this Mike?
    > If i go back with this i suspect it's reopening a huge can of worms, and
    > potential closure of the club
    > <gulp>


    My knowledge comes from the complications my local Cambridge Caving and
    Climbing Club has encountered by being active in both sports. We have
    had to insure all members for member liabilities for both activities
    even where the members only participate in one of them

    see

    http://www.thebmc.co.uk/thebmc/clubs/cins.htm

    and especially

    http://british-caving.org.uk/bca/insurance/04C0076_Club_insurance.pdf



    Mike
    --
    o/ \\ // || ,_ o Mike Clark, "An antibody engineer who also
    <\__,\\ // __o || / /\, likes the mountains"
    "> || _`\<,_ // \\ \> | Cambridge Climbing and Caving Club
    ` || (_)/ (_) // \\ \_ <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/cccc/>
     
  13. "However the duty of third party care still remains."

    What about that young girl who died following her boyfirend on Ben
    Nevis over the weekend?
    Can her family sue him?
     
  14. Bryan Hall

    Bryan Hall Guest

    thanks mike - i'd better get reading

    "Mike Clark" <mrc7@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
    news:25499d6c4d.mrc7offline@mrc7acorn1.path.cam.ac.uk...
    > In message <nuqie.6749$X86.1811@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>
    > "Bryan Hall" <bryan.hall9getridofme@ntlworld.com> wrote:
    >
    > > Got any reference website suggestions for this Mike?
    > > If i go back with this i suspect it's reopening a huge can of worms, and
    > > potential closure of the club
    > > <gulp>

    >
    > My knowledge comes from the complications my local Cambridge Caving and
    > Climbing Club has encountered by being active in both sports. We have
    > had to insure all members for member liabilities for both activities
    > even where the members only participate in one of them
    >
    > see
    >
    > http://www.thebmc.co.uk/thebmc/clubs/cins.htm
    >
    > and especially
    >
    > http://british-caving.org.uk/bca/insurance/04C0076_Club_insurance.pdf
    >
    >
    >
    > Mike
    > --
    > o/ \\ // || ,_ o Mike Clark, "An antibody engineer who also
    > <\__,\\ // __o || / /\, likes the mountains"
    > "> || _`\<,_ // \\ \> | Cambridge Climbing and Caving Club
    > ` || (_)/ (_) // \\ \_ <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/cccc/>
     
  15. Bryan Hall

    Bryan Hall Guest

    Whoo - just as I thought - the can's wide open

    Bearing in mind we are a formally constituted club, I'll have to look at
    some alternatives.

    One thought ....... the idea elsewhere on this thread about affiliation to a
    national club, to effectively "buy" cover for club members.
    The Ramblers was mentioned - but I can't see anything about club affiliation
    (or insurance for that matter)

    Anyone else been here and found a way out?

    "Bryan Hall" <bryan.hall9getridofme@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
    news:_Urie.7311$X86.6900@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
    > thanks mike - i'd better get reading
     
  16. Dave Pickles

    Dave Pickles Guest

    Bryan Hall wrote:

    > Whoo - just as I thought - the can's wide open
    >
    > Bearing in mind we are a formally constituted club, I'll have to look at
    > some alternatives.
    >
    > One thought ....... the idea elsewhere on this thread about affiliation to
    > a national club, to effectively "buy" cover for club members.
    > The Ramblers was mentioned - but I can't see anything about club
    > affiliation (or insurance for that matter)


    http://www.ramblers.org.uk/info/organisers/leading.html#Insurance
    --
    Dave
     
  17. In article <39sie.7412$X86.3936@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>, Bryan Hall
    <bryan.hall9getridofme@ntlworld.com> writes
    >Whoo - just as I thought - the can's wide open
    >
    >Bearing in mind we are a formally constituted club, I'll have to look at
    >some alternatives.
    >
    >One thought ....... the idea elsewhere on this thread about affiliation to a
    >national club, to effectively "buy" cover for club members.


    That is what happens with clubs affiliated to the BMC.

    Their page on liability is here:

    http://www.thebmc.co.uk/thebmc/clubs/guide6.htm

    I don't know how much club affiliation costs but expect it is based on
    the number of members. You may also find it entitles club members to
    discounts with retailers.

    If I were you I would give them a ring or email them to find out more

    BMC
    177-179 Burton Road Manchester,
    M20 2BB,
    UK
    T: 0870 010 4878
    F: 0161 445 4500
    E: office@thebmc.co.uk



    --

    Dominic Sexton
     
  18. Lindsay

    Lindsay Guest

    Mike you have clarified my initial point of 'duty of care'.

    The bottom line is that it is up to the Courts to decide what your duty
    of care is and in my case it is to my clients. However clients have
    to accept some responsibility for their actions as hill walking is an
    activity that you may become injured as a result of your own actions.

    If they are injured as a result of me giving them incorrect information
    or instruction I am liable to be sued, hence the need for insurance.

    Your point about signing a bit of paper is also correct as a good
    lawyer will argue the point.

    As for Club members or a group of friends going out there has to be an
    agreement that it is a joint walk with no person in charge (difficult
    to show in court) and that everyone has equal responsibility.

    You should bear in mind that in the worst scenario it may be the
    relative of someone who has been killed that is suing you and he or she
    doesn't know about all these agreements or is not interested as they
    need the cash to survive without their loved one.

    There are obviously a lot of loop holes in what I have said but it is
    better to err on the safe side and have insurance.

    I know it costs a fortune, as I have to pay a substanial fee every
    year, but better that than loosing everything I have worked for.

    www.caledoniahilltreks.com
     
  19. Mike Clark

    Mike Clark Guest

    In message <1116358396.630065.149920@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>
    "fen4b0y@yahoo.co.uk" <fen4b0y@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

    > "most lawyers would advise suing a party which has the resources to pay
    > compensation in the result that the claim is successful"
    >
    > Just about sums up the "cotton-wool","sue" culture we appear to have
    > adopted from the other side of the pond!!
    >


    Yes but mixed in with those who are only potential gold diggers there
    are genuine cases of negligence leading to an injury and the same rule
    still applies, it isn't worth suing somebody that has no assets even if
    you are in the right.

    --
    o/ \\ // || ,_ o Mike Clark, "An antibody engineer who also
    <\__,\\ // __o || / /\, likes the mountains"
    "> || _`\<,_ // \\ \> | Cambridge Climbing and Caving Club
    ` || (_)/ (_) // \\ \_ <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/cccc/>
     
  20. "even if you are in the right."

    That last part of the sentence is the issue with my views on the
    matter.

    It's not about right or wrong, if you take part in any non-work
    activity it's of your own volition. Even being 'led' by an 'expert'
    risk can't be eliminated. Just because the leader advocates a
    particular path, action, etc, it is surely still within the individual
    to make a judgement????? We're only human after all, we all make
    mistakes....or was that a line by Human League????
     
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