Is it common to replace integrated headset bearings?

[jojoma]

I've been having a lot of issues fine tuning the headset on my Specialized Tarmac SL3 Pro. Specifically, getting the headset bolt torqued just right. Too tight, and I can hardly steer the bike. To loose, and there is play in the headset.

I'm starting to think that when it's too tight, it's not actually too tight, but rather the bearings are shot, which is why the bars can't turn very well. I mean, I hardly torque the top bolt more than finger tight, and the bike won't steer. Plus I hear this grinding noise when I move the bars back and forth.

 

[oldbobcat]

Is this a new bike or has it been ridden before the headset started to give you problems? In other words, has this headset ever worked properly on this bike?

 

[jojoma]

The bike is about 1.5 years old. I have ridden/raced on it a lot.

A few months ago I was having trouble identifying a creaking noise every time I pulled on the handlebars. Out of the saddle climbing, for example. I must have taken the headset apart five or six times, greased everything, etc. (The reason for the noise, as I found out later, was the friction between the headset spacers. That's the last placed I would have guessed but it solved the problem.)

So what I'm saying is that maybe all of the taking apart/putting back together has taken a toll on the bearings??

 

[CAMPYBOB]

You can roll the separate top and bottom bearing assemblies in your hand. If they rotate smoothly with no load, they are likely clean and not brinnelled.

After installing and pre-loading the bearings, if no 'clunking' or 'index steering' is felt, the bearings are (again, probably) in good shape.

Going from a too loose state to too tight is usually an indication of an alignment or seating problem. Check your head tube and fork crown seats for positive seating and closely inspect the bearing positions as they are hand pressed into the head tube with the steerer as an alignment guide. Check for any race movement within the head tube.

Under a reasonable pre-load, check for fork movement. If you can induce fore-aft/side-side movement, the bearings are trash or there's play between the bearing cup and the head tube (unlikely).

It is entirely possible your headset is FUBAR, but I doubt only a season or so would kill a decent one. As inexpensive as headsets are, you could just swap in a new headset and maybe even a different compressor plug.

One last question...you ARE pre-loading with the stem pinch bolts loose, right?

 

[531Aussie]

Yes, my guess is that it wasn't put back together properly.
What you've described is often caused by the top part of the headset touching the frame, but I'm not how that could happen if it worked well before.

 

[jojoma]

Thanks for the insights. Yes, I do loosen the pinch bolts before I adjust the top bolt. A few years ago I did not know to do this, and I really messed things up.

 

[alfeng]

FWIW. To reenforce what CAMPYBOB and 531Aussie have said about your installation of the "bearings" ...

If you look at a Cartridge Bearing you will see that it is asymmetrical ... there is a chamfer on one side of the cartridge's inner collar ...

Also, on some headsets, there may be a separate COMPRESSION CONE which nests in that chamfer ...

• the compression cone is represented by the integrated cone on the fork's race ...
• on some headsets, the "dust cover" has an integrated compression cone, but on others it is a separate piece

Presuming that the bearings are properly inserted, if the bearing's chamfer is on the wrong side (i.e., the bearing is inserted upside-down) then I believe that you will encounter the problem which you are describing ...

Of course, if the headset has a separate compression cone AND you did not replace it during the last assembly, then you will definitely encounter the problem which you have described ...

So, check to see if your bearings are inserted properly AND/OR if you forgot to insert a separate compression cone during the last assembly ...

IF everything is as it should be then you may want to resort to a replacement headset ...

• I have found that FSA headsets have always been a good choice.

BTW. 'I' have found that it is (subjectively) easier to adjust a headset when the bike is inverted & the headset as close to vertical as possible whereby you are letting the fork do a large portion of the work rather than have the fork fight the adjustment ...

• I refer to the upside-down assembly as the "French" installation method because the first headset I encountered was French and the only way it could have been assembled (with its loose bearings!) would have been if it was upside-down
• but, THAT would have been true of the headset from any bike from that distant era

• BTW, the "French" method was simply a label for expedience and was-and-is NOT intended to be a pejorative ...
• the "French" method is, IMO, definitely the most expedient way to install a suspension fork (for any of you MTBers out there), BTW

 

[oldbobcat]

Originally Posted by jojoma .

So what I'm saying is that maybe all of the taking apart/putting back together has taken a toll on the bearings??

Probably not. But since you indicated you've been removing and replacing the stem and spacers, I'd be concerned that you reassembled everything correctly.
I believe what alf calls the compression cone is what the Park Tool site designates the centering sleeve. This is what fits between the fork steerer and the chamfer on the inside of the top bearing, which ensures that the fork is centered inside the bearings. I bring this up because I've worked on headsets that were missing this piece.

If this checks out, I'd look at the cone spacer, the cone-shaped spacer that presses directly on the top bearing. When everything is installed correctly, the fork should rotate freely and the cone spacer should turn directly with the fork, with no play or friction or contact with the frame. If there is contact between the frame and the cone spacer, you need to place shims between the centering sleeve and the cone spacer. Often, bike manufacturers will pack a couple of 0.1 mm shims (they look like really thin stem spacers) in the build kit for this purpose, so your local shop should be able to get you a couple. If you need more than a couple, a 1 mm stem spacer can do the job.

Installing a new integrated headset can introduce a raft of new problems in fitting the bearings to the head tube and the crown race to the fork, so I don't recommend it unless you're positively sure the bearings or crown race are trashed.

 

[Dr Lodge]

I think integrated headsets are flawed, check the aarticle on the Chris King web site about it chrisking.com/files/pdfs/Int20HeadsetsExplained.pdf

Essentially, the movement around the headset can wear out the surfaces inside the head tube that the bearings sit on, so replacing the bearings doesn't solve the problem - there is wear inside the head tube which is part of the frame, so you're buggered.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

King Chris King is absolutely correct.

 

[oldbobcat]

Originally Posted by Dr Lodge .

Essentially, the movement around the headset can wear out the surfaces inside the head tube that the bearings sit on, so replacing the bearings doesn't solve the problem - there is wear inside the head tube which is part of the frame, so you're buggered.

I'm on my third frame with an integrated headset (and fourth integrated headset). I've seen a few ovalized head tubes, some on new bikes with plumber's tape to fill the gaps. We assumed the problem is bad machining by the manufacturer or a ham-fisted mechanic greasing the facing before dropping in the bearing.

But of course that bearing is going to move around in there. I guess as long as the headset interface isn't the first part of the frame to fail, the design is considered acceptable.

 

[alienator]

I'm on my third frame with an integrated headset (and fourth integrated headset). I've seen a few ovalized head tubes, some on new bikes with plumber's tape to fill the gaps. We assumed the problem is bad machining by the manufacturer or a ham-fisted mechanic greasing the facing before dropping in the bearing. But of course that bearing is going to move around in there. I guess as long as the headset interface isn't the first part of the frame to fail, the design is considered acceptable.

IMHO, internal headsets are a much better solution. I'm not sure what benefit an integrated headset has over an internal (or the run of the mill aheadset), but I certainly dig that none of the CF in my head tube and steerer function as a race. I rate integrated headsets like BB30 and the like BB's: not highly, although BB30 and such BB's usually just offend with noises.

 

[531Aussie]

I sometimes cheat by using headset shims

 

[oldbobcat]

Originally Posted by 531Aussie .

I sometimes cheat by using headset shims

Same here, Sometimes the stack height of the new headset bearing is just too low.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

I have not seen it, but I have heard of guys that used epoxy casting compounds (Smooth-On, etc.) to form-fit the bearings. I would assume a junk duplicate bearing set and mold release was used.

I have yet to hear of a head tube failure, but the bike shop stories of noise and poor bearing tracking are out and about.

I want to try one of the 1-1/8" to 1-1/2" tapered steerers on my next frameset. It's got to be stronger and stiffer and the increased lower bearing area might help with location a little bit.

 

[oldbobcat]

Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB .

I have not seen it, but I have heard of guys that used epoxy casting compounds (Smooth-On, etc.) to form-fit the bearings. I would assume a junk duplicate bearing set and mold release was used.

At least better than plumber's tape, it would be worth trying if the frame couldn't or wouldn't be warrantied. This discussion prompted me to examine the seatings in the Giant TCR frame that I just retired, to see if anything had changed. Nope, still snug and round.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

I try to keep the pre-load a little on the high side...maybe it will help. Maybe it won't.

I put 5-1/2 seasons on the last IH bike and it was still tight and the seat areas looked OK. I used to kill a conventional 1" threaded headset evey year or so on our crappy roads! At least the new headsets seem to have a much longer service life.

For frame headset seat area repair you might try using something like this. Takes a bit more skill and mess than shims, but would be a good repair solution IMO.

Devcon makes some great products in this repair area... http://www.devcon.com/

I have not used this anti-abrasion epoxy, but it looks interesting: http://www.devcon.com/resources/news.cfm?ID=38102BAC%2DA1EC%2DD53F%2D256D47AC8C60C95C&test

I have used this, and it performs well in (not cycling related) high shock applications: http://www.devcon.com/products/products.cfm?brand=Devcon&family=HP%20250

Mold release on a junk bearing race for ease of removal after curing: http://www.devcon.com/products/products.cfm?familyid=209&sr=1&CFID=20199245&CFTOKEN=29657416

I wounder what bonding in a thin RTV silicon cushion seal ring would work like? Probably not a long-lasting solution, but it would be a quick and easy operation to do once a year or whatever.