Known Defect?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Smitty88, Oct 4, 2007.

  1. Smitty88

    Smitty88 Guest

    Twice now I've broken rear spokes on my fairly new Shimano WHR-550
    wheels wheel. Actually, the spokes didn't break - the lip that holds the
    female-threaded part to the hub pulled off allowing it to break free. I
    had no such problem with my previous similar Rolf Vector wheels. Is this
    a known defect? I'm neither that heavy nor that strong (170 pounds and
    69 years old) so it seems to me that it shouldn't happen. (spokes were
    properly tensioned and, in fact, I even had the wheel checked for
    trueness recently at my LBS).
    The failures happened what standing and riding slowly in low gear at
    the start of steep hill. Never had such a problem with other wheels in
    similar situations.
    Steve J
     
    Tags:


  2. landotter

    landotter Guest

    On Oct 4, 11:42 am, Smitty88 <snijuni...@comcast.net> wrote:
    > Twice now I've broken rear spokes on my fairly new Shimano WHR-550
    > wheels wheel. Actually, the spokes didn't break - the lip that holds the
    > female-threaded part to the hub pulled off allowing it to break free. I
    > had no such problem with my previous similar Rolf Vector wheels. Is this
    > a known defect? I'm neither that heavy nor that strong (170 pounds and
    > 69 years old) so it seems to me that it shouldn't happen. (spokes were
    > properly tensioned and, in fact, I even had the wheel checked for
    > trueness recently at my LBS).
    > The failures happened what standing and riding slowly in low gear at
    > the start of steep hill. Never had such a problem with other wheels in
    > similar situations.
    > Steve J


    http://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/wheels/wheelsets/shimano/PRD_366354_2490crx.aspx#reviews

    It's not just you. These wheels chafe my ass--because a lot of people
    bought them or got them OEM because shimano got the price down to an
    acceptable point. But, they are not light, reliable, or easily
    serviced. For the same price you could have gotten hand builts on some
    105 hubs.

    Sorry to hear of your trouble, but if you can afford it, I'd just bite
    the bullet and get some traditional wheels instead of tearing your
    hair out.
     
  3. Anthony King

    Anthony King Guest

    On Oct 4, 12:08 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
    > On Oct 4, 11:42 am, Smitty88 <snijuni...@comcast.net> wrote:
    >
    > > Twice now I've broken rear spokes on my fairly new Shimano WHR-550
    > > wheels wheel. Actually, the spokes didn't break - the lip that holds the
    > > female-threaded part to the hub pulled off allowing it to break free. I
    > > had no such problem with my previous similar Rolf Vector wheels. Is this
    > > a known defect? I'm neither that heavy nor that strong (170 pounds and
    > > 69 years old) so it seems to me that it shouldn't happen. (spokes were
    > > properly tensioned and, in fact, I even had the wheel checked for
    > > trueness recently at my LBS).
    > > The failures happened what standing and riding slowly in low gear at
    > > the start of steep hill. Never had such a problem with other wheels in
    > > similar situations.
    > > Steve J

    >
    > http://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/wheels/wheelsets/shimano/PRD_366354...
    >
    > It's not just you. These wheels chafe my ass--because a lot of people
    > bought them or got them OEM because shimano got the price down to an
    > acceptable point. But, they are not light, reliable, or easily
    > serviced. For the same price you could have gotten hand builts on some
    > 105 hubs.
    >
    > Sorry to hear of your trouble, but if you can afford it, I'd just bite
    > the bullet and get some traditional wheels instead of tearing your
    > hair out.


    Landotter is correct. When I worked at a typical mainstream bike shop
    the whole service department cursed these wheels. They break often
    and are difficult to repair.

    One of the reasons I started my own business was to never have to sell
    a bike with junk like the WHR-550 wheels on it.

    Anthony King
    ___________________
    www.trinitybicycles.com
    437 E. Pioneer Dr. #160
    Irving, TX 75061
    972.721.7090
    Bicycles, parts, and handbuilt wheels for those who value proven and
    practical performance.
     
  4. On Oct 4, 9:42 am, Smitty88 <snijuni...@comcast.net> wrote:
    > Twice now I've broken rear spokes on my fairly new Shimano WHR-550
    > wheels wheel. Actually, the spokes didn't break - the lip that holds the
    > female-threaded part to the hub pulled off allowing it to break free. I
    > had no such problem with my previous similar Rolf Vector wheels. Is this
    > a known defect? I'm neither that heavy nor that strong (170 pounds and
    > 69 years old) so it seems to me that it shouldn't happen. (spokes were
    > properly tensioned and, in fact, I even had the wheel checked for
    > trueness recently at my LBS).
    > The failures happened what standing and riding slowly in low gear at
    > the start of steep hill. Never had such a problem with other wheels in
    > similar situations.
    > Steve J


    Like most wheelouttaboxes, these are not designed or built well. Go
    see a wheelbuuilder, with some reputation, to design and build a
    wheelset that will work better, cost less.
     
  5. Peter Cole

    Peter Cole Guest

    landotter wrote:
    > On Oct 4, 11:42 am, Smitty88 <snijuni...@comcast.net> wrote:
    >> Twice now I've broken rear spokes on my fairly new Shimano WHR-550
    >> wheels wheel. Actually, the spokes didn't break - the lip that holds the
    >> female-threaded part to the hub pulled off allowing it to break free. I
    >> had no such problem with my previous similar Rolf Vector wheels. Is this
    >> a known defect? I'm neither that heavy nor that strong (170 pounds and
    >> 69 years old) so it seems to me that it shouldn't happen. (spokes were
    >> properly tensioned and, in fact, I even had the wheel checked for
    >> trueness recently at my LBS).
    >> The failures happened what standing and riding slowly in low gear at
    >> the start of steep hill. Never had such a problem with other wheels in
    >> similar situations.
    >> Steve J

    >
    > http://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/wheels/wheelsets/shimano/PRD_366354_2490crx.aspx#reviews


    I love these reviews, a typical one (gave it 5 out of 5):

    "I logged 7000 miles on the rims before I suffered my first broken
    spoke. It was then that I discovered my first stress crack too. I had
    the spoke replaced and the shop told me I shouldn't wait too long to
    replace the wheel. 30 miles later I got my second stress crack."

    "Strengths:
    Not bad standard equipment. I couldn't expect any more out of a wheel."

    Another:

    "the R550 spokes have a quarter of the wind drag. Plus the rim is aero
    section. This difference is noticable, about 1 mph on my speedometer."


    Sad, just sad.

    >
    > It's not just you. These wheels chafe my ass--because a lot of people
    > bought them or got them OEM because shimano got the price down to an
    > acceptable point. But, they are not light, reliable, or easily
    > serviced. For the same price you could have gotten hand builts on some
    > 105 hubs.
    >
    > Sorry to hear of your trouble, but if you can afford it, I'd just bite
    > the bullet and get some traditional wheels instead of tearing your
    > hair out.
    >


    From the Shimano spec:

    "Spoke tension value

    For front
    980-1400N
    For rear
    Right (sprocket) side
    1000-1600N
    Left side
    600-1100N

    *These values should be used as a guide only."

    Now, what were people claiming about lower tension in reduced spoke
    count wheels? There's no free lunch.
     
  6. Peter Cole

    Peter Cole Guest

    Peter Cole wrote:
    > landotter wrote:
    >> On Oct 4, 11:42 am, Smitty88 <snijuni...@comcast.net> wrote:
    >>> Twice now I've broken rear spokes on my fairly new Shimano
    >>> WHR-550


    >> http://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/wheels/wheelsets/shimano/PRD_366354_2490crx.aspx#reviews
    >>

    >


    Another interesting review:

    " had concerns over some of the reviews I've read so I email shimano
    australia to ask the question on quality, here is their reply:
    WH-R550 wheels offer a good mix of low price and low weight. For any
    brand or model of low-spoke count wheels (wheels with roughly half the
    number of spokes compared to a conventional wheel), the maintenance
    routine becomes very important.[...] If you're looking for something
    to ride for heaps of Kms without doing any maintenance, you may want to
    consider some 32- or 36-spoke conventional wheels."

    The original release of WH-R550 in 2004 were spec'd with steel spokes.
    From early 2005, these wheels were upgraded to stainless steels spokes
    which have proven to be a bit more durable."

    Apparently excellent wheels except if you actually want to ride them.
     
  7. Anthony King

    Anthony King Guest

    "the R550 spokes have a quarter of the wind drag. Plus the rim is aero
    section. This difference is noticable, about 1 mph on my speedometer."

    Sad, just sad.
    ---------------
    And hilarious.

    I guess the next time I decide to ride some spokes, I'll know what to
    choose.

    Of course manufacturers help propagate these misleading statements. I
    love it when they give wind tunnel results for aerowheels. They
    always test the bike without a rider (or even better, just wheels
    without the bike) and then give you some bogus "10% wind resistance
    reduction" claim. Of course when you stick a rider on the bike that
    becomes a 2.5% reduction in drag, which equals a gain approaching
    squat in terms of speed..

    I guess the next time my bike is going on a ride without me it can put
    some aero wheels on itself, too.

    BTW, even if the 10% reduction were true, it would equal a 1% speed
    gain (if you averaged an output of 250W)
    The real figure, 2.5%, will yield a whopping 0.5%, (again, if you
    average an output of 250W)
    So how fast must the guy have been going to get a 1mph gain?

    You can get twice the reduction in drag offered by aerowheels by
    lowering your stem 20mm.

    But of course that would be free.

    Anthony King
    ---------------
    Trinity Bicycles
    www.trinitybicycles.com
    437 E. Pioneer Dr. #160
    Irving, TX 75061
    972.721.7090
    Bicycles, parts, and handbuilt wheels for those who value proven and
    practical performance.
     
  8. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    Anthony King wrote:
    > "the R550 spokes have a quarter of the wind drag. Plus the rim is aero
    > section. This difference is noticable, about 1 mph on my speedometer."
    > Sad, just sad.
    > ---------------
    > And hilarious.
    > I guess the next time I decide to ride some spokes, I'll know what to
    > choose.
    > Of course manufacturers help propagate these misleading statements. I
    > love it when they give wind tunnel results for aerowheels. They
    > always test the bike without a rider (or even better, just wheels
    > without the bike) and then give you some bogus "10% wind resistance
    > reduction" claim. Of course when you stick a rider on the bike that
    > becomes a 2.5% reduction in drag, which equals a gain approaching
    > squat in terms of speed..
    > I guess the next time my bike is going on a ride without me it can put
    > some aero wheels on itself, too.
    > BTW, even if the 10% reduction were true, it would equal a 1% speed
    > gain (if you averaged an output of 250W)
    > The real figure, 2.5%, will yield a whopping 0.5%, (again, if you
    > average an output of 250W)
    > So how fast must the guy have been going to get a 1mph gain?
    > You can get twice the reduction in drag offered by aerowheels by
    > lowering your stem 20mm.
    > But of course that would be free.


    I'm not arguing and for me that's all true.

    If I might play JFT for a moment, one might argue that in competition,
    all else being equal, a race may surely be won, and many are, on 2% or
    less between a glorious victory and whoever the hell was second. All it
    takes is for your product with 2% or what have you advantage to last
    until the finish and not diminish the effort in any other way.

    Whether these wheels meet that standard (not likely) I cannot say, just
    noting that a "small" difference is sometimes "sufficient".
    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  9. On Oct 5, 4:26 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
    >
    > If I might play JFT for a moment, one might argue that in competition,
    > all else being equal, a race may surely be won, and many are, on 2% or
    > less between a glorious victory and whoever the hell was second. All it
    > takes is for your product with 2% or what have you advantage to last
    > until the finish and not diminish the effort in any other way.
    >
    > Whether these wheels meet that standard (not likely) I cannot say, just
    > noting that a "small" difference is sometimes "sufficient".


    ISTM that in an athletic contest, psychology is as important as
    technology. Maybe more so.

    If someone _believes_ the 2% difference is critical, that may inspire
    an extra 3% effort or endurance, and that might lead to a victory...
    whether or not the component is really 2% better.

    If I were racing, I think I'd hire a hypnotist to convince me that a
    fancy new decal on my bike would add the 2% performance advantage. It
    would probably be cheaper, and wouldn't affect the reliability of my
    bike. ;-)

    - Frank Krygowski
     
  10. Anthony King

    Anthony King Guest

    On Oct 5, 3:26 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
    > Anthony King wrote:
    > > "the R550 spokes have a quarter of the wind drag. Plus the rim is aero
    > > section. This difference is noticable, about 1 mph on my speedometer."
    > > Sad, just sad.
    > > ---------------
    > > And hilarious.
    > > I guess the next time I decide to ride some spokes, I'll know what to
    > > choose.
    > > Of course manufacturers help propagate these misleading statements. I
    > > love it when they give wind tunnel results for aerowheels. They
    > > always test the bike without a rider (or even better, just wheels
    > > without the bike) and then give you some bogus "10% wind resistance
    > > reduction" claim. Of course when you stick a rider on the bike that
    > > becomes a 2.5% reduction in drag, which equals a gain approaching
    > > squat in terms of speed..
    > > I guess the next time my bike is going on a ride without me it can put
    > > some aero wheels on itself, too.
    > > BTW, even if the 10% reduction were true, it would equal a 1% speed
    > > gain (if you averaged an output of 250W)
    > > The real figure, 2.5%, will yield a whopping 0.5%, (again, if you
    > > average an output of 250W)
    > > So how fast must the guy have been going to get a 1mph gain?
    > > You can get twice the reduction in drag offered by aerowheels by
    > > lowering your stem 20mm.
    > > But of course that would be free.

    >
    > I'm not arguing and for me that's all true.
    >
    > If I might play JFT for a moment, one might argue that in competition,
    > all else being equal, a race may surely be won, and many are, on 2% or
    > less between a glorious victory and whoever the hell was second. All it
    > takes is for your product with 2% or what have you advantage to last
    > until the finish and not diminish the effort in any other way.
    >
    > Whether these wheels meet that standard (not likely) I cannot say, just
    > noting that a "small" difference is sometimes "sufficient".
    > --
    > Andrew Muziwww.yellowjersey.org
    > Open every day since 1 April, 1971


    Absolutely, "in competition" are your key words. But I think I'm
    correctly assuming that the market for these wheels are not people
    racing at such a high level that fractional differences matter. These
    are wheels that go on rally riders' bikes. And the rally rider would
    be better served by wheels that don't break spokes.

    Anthony King
    trinitybicycles.com
     
  11. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    > A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
    >> If I might play JFT for a moment, one might argue that in competition,
    >> all else being equal, a race may surely be won, and many are, on 2% or
    >> less between a glorious victory and whoever the hell was second. All it
    >> takes is for your product with 2% or what have you advantage to last
    >> until the finish and not diminish the effort in any other way.
    >> Whether these wheels meet that standard (not likely) I cannot say, just
    >> noting that a "small" difference is sometimes "sufficient".


    frkrygow@gmail.com wrote:
    > ISTM that in an athletic contest, psychology is as important as
    > technology. Maybe more so.
    > If someone _believes_ the 2% difference is critical, that may inspire
    > an extra 3% effort or endurance, and that might lead to a victory...
    > whether or not the component is really 2% better.
    > If I were racing, I think I'd hire a hypnotist to convince me that a
    > fancy new decal on my bike would add the 2% performance advantage. It
    > would probably be cheaper, and wouldn't affect the reliability of my
    > bike. ;-)


    Good point. Back in the olden days, when I was peeing large amounts of
    money into a race team, before today's automatic 'athlete additives'
    testing, a pharmacist gave our guys mood elevators before big events.
    Happy riders perform very well and can still pass a urine test.
    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
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