Micro rests during L4 intervals

Discussion in 'Power Training' started by peterwright, Oct 25, 2007.

  1. peterwright

    peterwright New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2003
    Messages:
    533
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have an elite athlete that I coach that when doing a routine 3 x 20 L4 session is doing something akin to micro rests during the latter intervals. This looks like 10-12 short (around 6-12 secs) periods of coasting prior to ramping it up again. Effectively these become more prevalent in the later intervals (presumably as he fatigues) and the interval therefore has a higher VI. Average power might drop from 331w to 318w for almost the same NP.

    Has anybody come across this or experienced it before ? If it was simply fatigue then I would expect to see a drop off in both AP & NP as time passes - rather than a higher VI ?
     
    Tags:


  2. Markster

    Markster New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2003
    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is he getting sore? i.e. a position related problem?
     
  3. peterwright

    peterwright New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2003
    Messages:
    533
    Likes Received:
    0
    Interestingly enough he has reported a sore hamstring during L4 on one side - so this may be a clue..

    Thanks
     
  4. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,865
    Likes Received:
    0
    presumably these rides are on an indoor trainer... i find that indoors (where people rarely rest or stand) tends to excaerbate any positional problems they might have. Plus you've also got the heat build up to worry about.
    ric
     
  5. peterwright

    peterwright New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2003
    Messages:
    533
    Likes Received:
    0
    No - he does these outdoors (in Sunny Cape Town don't forget ;-)
     
  6. Alex Simmons

    Alex Simmons Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,469
    Likes Received:
    19
  7. peterwright

    peterwright New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2003
    Messages:
    533
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nope - checked this. It is definately a pattern with this rider. I have seen it in all three of his intervals at times but more often than not only when he gets fatigued.
     
  8. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,865
    Likes Received:
    0
    i suggested it was indoors, simply because virtually everyone i coach (and lots of other files from other riders) tend to have 'rests' outdoors because of topography or traffic etc.
     
  9. peterwright

    peterwright New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2003
    Messages:
    533
    Likes Received:
    0
    Topography could be playiung a role, but when I ask him about these rests, he says "I tend to stop pedalling when I am feeling tired in my L4 intervals" which kinda sounds like an obvious statement excpet for the fact that his NP stays pretty much bang on target.
     
  10. Terry Ferguson

    Terry Ferguson New Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2006
    Messages:
    146
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would ask if it is pain and if he stands or changes postion when coasting. Sounds like positional - nerve/circulatory. Is with me. - TF
     
  11. Alex Simmons

    Alex Simmons Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,469
    Likes Received:
    19
    They're not long enough to "untrip" the NP algorithm. IOW - the physiological cost of both types of effort is effectively the same.
     
  12. peterwright

    peterwright New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2003
    Messages:
    533
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sure - but I am still keen to understand what is causing him to do this, as in a race situation on a long climb this inability to ride at threshold when tired (even for 20 mins) could be costly.
     
  13. rmur17

    rmur17 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Messages:
    1,066
    Likes Received:
    0
    specializing in the simple answers I'll say: his power target across the interval set is just too high. He stops pedalling because he needs a short break.

    Personally i'm not sure that NP == AP when it comes to threshold training.

    By "==" I mean exactly equals or is strictly equivalent to.
     
  14. jeff828

    jeff828 New Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2004
    Messages:
    245
    Likes Received:
    0
    I do the same thing as the posters athlete, I call mine "muscle releases". I take about 20sec, 3-4 times during each set of my 3x20s. I do these on rollers & the reason is because my private goes numb a little from sitting in one position so long & it gives me a chance to get a drink. Also when fatigue starts to set it I find when I do this little release my HR drops 30-40 beats and I have a new set of fresh legs for a few minutes and can ramp up the power even higher until the fatigue builds up again. I have run this by my coach (who is on these forums) and he has no answer.

    I would like to ask you guys your opinion, what is happening, is the muscle release allowing more blood/fresh blood it the muscles to rejuvenate them, is the flood flow clearing the lactic acid more? I don’t know what its doing but it works for me, I can even go 20watts higher for those few minutes than I was doing during the workout.

    My second question is what is actually fatiguing, the muscle fibers, the cells etc? since during the 3x20 we are not going anaerobic. Is it maybe a slow build up of lactic acid over that period of time, unlike an effort less than a minute which floods the system with lactic acid almost immediately
     
  15. Piotr

    Piotr New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2007
    Messages:
    794
    Likes Received:
    0
    What's causing him to do this is fatigue due to an overestimated FTP, or serious lack of form. Get him down to where he can ride 20 min without these rests. I'd say that "inability to ride at threshold" is kind of a giveaway.
     
  16. holli

    holli New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2003
    Messages:
    154
    Likes Received:
    0
    I was about to say the same. Dropping power by 10-20W could be enough.

    I have "breaks" when riding off the saddle for 5-10 secs every once in a while but my watts won't drop much. I should try some other saddle to prevent certain numbness.
     
  17. otb4evr

    otb4evr Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    344
    Likes Received:
    0
    Piotr,

    I disagree.

    I don't think it is an "inability", so much as it is a "choice".

    About the "serious lack of form" comment: I guess if you call 85 peak CTL, an average in the mid-70s and over 23000 TSS points for the year as lacking form... OK You are entitled to your opinion...

    We have seen the same pattern, regardless of wattage or interval length, over the past year. The intervals are always done on a set of rollers and the breaks are short; 5 - 7 seconds.

    They typically happen every 4 - 7 minutes; right were a cyclist would typically stand during a ride outdoors.

    Peter, my thought, initially, was the same as yours. I didn't want him to get into a pattern and have it affect his racing. Since he never does any time trialing and he has done hour long climbs during his longer rides without these mini-breaks, I stopped dwelling on it. It has never shown to be a limiter during his racing, as well...

    Jim
     
  18. Spunout

    Spunout New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    667
    Likes Received:
    0
    Long intervals are boring. He may be standing on the pedals to relieve saddle pressure, stretch ankles and hamstrings, back, etc.

    I suspect this won't happen in a competition situation, on a long climb or a TT (sounds like subject is not a TTer....which is fine).
     
  19. peterwright

    peterwright New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2003
    Messages:
    533
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jim - I agree

    In this case it is by no means an overstated FTP or a lack of form. This is an elite / semi pro rider who regularly performs at a level that backs up my FTP and has also completed a 60 min TT at this level.

    In his races he always has the highest economy rating of all my riders - often at 23-25% time spent not pedalling, so it is a pattern in his riding that certainly helps his racing rather than hinder it.

    I think it is a lack of focus and a need to change position etc.

    Peter
     
  20. joemw

    joemw New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2006
    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    0
    3 x 20 @ FTP is an exceptionally difficult task. In my experience it's nearly impossible to do if the FTP setpoint came from a race effort. I'd try to bring the AP down 3-5% for the first two reps and then ramp up a bit on the last one if anything is left.
     
Loading...

Share This Page

Loading...