Re: Boris Johnson's bike stolen

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Tony Raven, Aug 2, 2007.

  1. Tony Raven

    Tony Raven Guest

    leandr42@googlemail.com wrote:
    >
    > Presumably his mistake was to lock the bike to cast iron railings,
    > which AIUI can be broken. (I'm not criticisng him, but if he didn't
    > know that with his extensive experience, maybe some people here
    > don't.)
    >


    Given that its reasonably clear they broke the lock bar, not the
    railings, how is that relevant?

    Tony
     
    Tags:


  2. Sepulchre

    Sepulchre Guest

    "Decoy bikes will be part of the answer;"

    I like Boris's idea of decoy bikes.

    I have often fantasized about leaving my unlocked bike or lightly
    locked let's say in London and pouncing on the bastard who tries
    theiving it.

    Oh how I've seen myself in dreamlike cinerama kung-fu kicking the
    living lights out of him. Foot to head and fist to ball bag.
     
  3. On Aug 2, 10:26 am, Tony Raven <tra...@gotadsl.co.uk> wrote:
    > leand...@googlemail.com wrote:
    >
    > > Presumably his mistake was to lock the bike to cast iron railings,
    > > which AIUI can be broken. (I'm not criticisng him, but if he didn't
    > > know that with his extensive experience, maybe some people here
    > > don't.)

    >
    > Given that its reasonably clear they broke the lock bar, not the
    > railings, how is that relevant?
    >


    I read it as breaking the bar in the railings, and the later comment
    might back that interpretation:

    "It would be a huge advance for civility and decency on the streets,
    because little crimes lead to greater crimes, and if you can casually
    smash a railing to steal a bike"

    --
    Dan
     
  4. M25

    M25 Guest

    "Tony Raven" <traven@gotadsl.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:2LOdnfEEN8DKPizbRVnyjQA@bt.com...
    > leandr42@googlemail.com wrote:
    >>
    >> Presumably his mistake was to lock the bike to cast iron railings,
    >> which AIUI can be broken. (I'm not criticisng him, but if he didn't
    >> know that with his extensive experience, maybe some people here
    >> don't.)
    >>

    >
    > Given that its reasonably clear they broke the lock bar, not the railings,
    > how is that relevant?
    >
    > Tony

    When ever I lock my bike up, I always bring the front wheel
    with me and also the seat. So if some does decide to steal it they'll
    have to walk home with it.
     
  5. Sepulchre <murtaghj@hotmail.com>typed


    > "Decoy bikes will be part of the answer;"


    > I like Boris's idea of decoy bikes.


    > I have often fantasized about leaving my unlocked bike or lightly
    > locked let's say in London and pouncing on the bastard who tries
    > theiving it.


    > Oh how I've seen myself in dreamlike cinerama kung-fu kicking the
    > living lights out of him. Foot to head and fist to ball bag.



    Camden Police left a few decoy bikes around. All were stolen within an
    hour IIRC. They led the police to thieves and their caches of product
    that weren't just bicycles. They were happy with the results.

    --
    Helen D. Vecht: helenvecht@zetnet.co.uk
    Edgware.
     
  6. howard

    howard Guest

    "Helen Deborah Vecht" <helenvecht@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:313030303736393546B2161769@zetnet.co.uk...
    > Sepulchre <murtaghj@hotmail.com>typed
    >
    >
    > > "Decoy bikes will be part of the answer;"

    >
    > > I like Boris's idea of decoy bikes.

    >
    > > I have often fantasized about leaving my unlocked bike or lightly
    > > locked let's say in London and pouncing on the bastard who tries
    > > theiving it.

    >
    > > Oh how I've seen myself in dreamlike cinerama kung-fu kicking the
    > > living lights out of him. Foot to head and fist to ball bag.

    >
    >
    > Camden Police left a few decoy bikes around. All were stolen within an
    > hour IIRC. They led the police to thieves and their caches of product
    > that weren't just bicycles. They were happy with the results.


    It's entrapment. Im still not clear if that's legal ?

    http://news.zdnet.co.uk/emergingtech/0,1000000183,2084226,00.htm
     
  7. congokid

    congokid Guest

    In article <7Vlsi.8028$S91.7260@newsfe7-win.ntli.net>, M25
    <M25@TheNet.NET> writes

    >When ever I lock my bike up, I always bring the front wheel
    >with me and also the seat. So if some does decide to steal it they'll
    >have to walk home with it.


    On my visits to the swimming pool, I take off the front wheel and lock
    it along with the frame and back wheel to a railing or Sheffield stand
    depending on which pool I'm at. Like you I remove the saddle, but also
    the seat post and bring them inside with me. I'm not losing another
    Brooks.
    --
    congokid
    Eating out in London? Read my tips...
    http://congokid.com
     
  8. Phil Cook

    Phil Cook Guest

    howard wrote:

    >
    >"Helen Deborah Vecht" <helenvecht@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
    >news:313030303736393546B2161769@zetnet.co.uk...
    >> Sepulchre <murtaghj@hotmail.com>typed
    >>
    >> > "Decoy bikes will be part of the answer;"

    >>
    >> > I like Boris's idea of decoy bikes.


    >> Camden Police left a few decoy bikes around. All were stolen within an
    >> hour IIRC. They led the police to thieves and their caches of product
    >> that weren't just bicycles. They were happy with the results.

    >
    >It's entrapment. Im still not clear if that's legal ?
    >
    >http://news.zdnet.co.uk/emergingtech/0,1000000183,2084226,00.htm


    I don't think so. Quoting the above article:

    In America, federal law enables FBI agents to enter chatrooms posing
    as children in order to identify and arrest paedophiles before any
    physical assault has taken place. In the UK however, PACE states that
    such methods make police "agents provocateurs" and evidence gathered
    in this way is inadmissible. Article 6 of the EU Convention on Human
    Rights also outlaws evidence gathered by entrapment.

    The Camden plod are not asking the bike thieves to steal these
    particular bikes. They might be if they were to lock up a top of the
    range full-suss-diskbraked job with just a squire cable lock
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0001P0ANG
    But I doubt that's what they do.
    --
    Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"
     
  9. On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 18:14:16 GMT, howard <famous415minutes@gmail.com> wrote:
    >
    > "Helen Deborah Vecht" <helenvecht@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
    > news:313030303736393546B2161769@zetnet.co.uk...
    >> Sepulchre <murtaghj@hotmail.com>typed
    >>
    >>
    >> > "Decoy bikes will be part of the answer;"

    >>
    >> > I like Boris's idea of decoy bikes.

    >>
    >> > I have often fantasized about leaving my unlocked bike or lightly
    >> > locked let's say in London and pouncing on the bastard who tries
    >> > theiving it.

    >>
    >> > Oh how I've seen myself in dreamlike cinerama kung-fu kicking the
    >> > living lights out of him. Foot to head and fist to ball bag.

    >>
    >>
    >> Camden Police left a few decoy bikes around. All were stolen within an
    >> hour IIRC. They led the police to thieves and their caches of product
    >> that weren't just bicycles. They were happy with the results.

    >
    > It's entrapment. Im still not clear if that's legal ?
    >
    > http://news.zdnet.co.uk/emergingtech/0,1000000183,2084226,00.htm


    Of course it isn't. They do the same with cars as well.
    The key is they are not encouraging the potential thief at all. They
    are just parking a vehicle in a place and then observing for when
    the vehicle is nicked / broken into. It is completely different to
    your linked news story about online child grooming.

    --
    Andy Leighton => andyl@azaal.plus.com
    "The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
    - Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_
     
  10. Sam Nelson

    Sam Nelson Guest

    In article <Vyk6iHbi9isGFwCr@congokid.demon.co.uk>,
    congokid@congokid.com says...
    > In article <7Vlsi.8028$S91.7260@newsfe7-win.ntli.net>, M25
    > <M25@TheNet.NET> writes
    >
    > >When ever I lock my bike up, I always bring the front wheel
    > >with me and also the seat. So if some does decide to steal it they'll
    > >have to walk home with it.

    >
    > On my visits to the swimming pool, I take off the front wheel and lock
    > it along with the frame and back wheel to a railing or Sheffield stand
    > depending on which pool I'm at. Like you I remove the saddle, but also
    > the seat post and bring them inside with me. I'm not losing another
    > Brooks.


    I lock the lock to the nearest railings and take the entire bike in.
    --
    SAm.
     
  11. John Rowland

    John Rowland Guest

    Sam Nelson wrote:
    > In article <Vyk6iHbi9isGFwCr@congokid.demon.co.uk>,
    > congokid@congokid.com says...
    >> In article <7Vlsi.8028$S91.7260@newsfe7-win.ntli.net>, M25
    >> <M25@TheNet.NET> writes
    >>
    >>> When ever I lock my bike up, I always bring the front wheel
    >>> with me and also the seat. So if some does decide to steal it
    >>> they'll have to walk home with it.

    >>
    >> On my visits to the swimming pool, I take off the front wheel and
    >> lock it along with the frame and back wheel to a railing or
    >> Sheffield stand depending on which pool I'm at. Like you I remove
    >> the saddle, but also the seat post and bring them inside with me.
    >> I'm not losing another Brooks.

    >
    > I lock the lock to the nearest railings and take the entire bike in.


    What we need is transfomer bikes - turn this little lever here and it
    transforms into a Raleigh Shopper.
     
  12. Paul Boyd

    Paul Boyd Guest

    Sam Nelson said the following on 02/08/2007 21:35:

    > I lock the lock to the nearest railings and take the entire bike in.


    Then you come back and find the railing's been stolen :)

    --
    Paul Boyd
    http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
     
  13. marc

    marc Guest

    howard wrote:
    > "Helen Deborah Vecht" <helenvecht@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
    > news:313030303736393546B2161769@zetnet.co.uk...
    >> Sepulchre <murtaghj@hotmail.com>typed
    >>
    >>
    >>> "Decoy bikes will be part of the answer;"
    >>> I like Boris's idea of decoy bikes.
    >>> I have often fantasized about leaving my unlocked bike or lightly
    >>> locked let's say in London and pouncing on the bastard who tries
    >>> theiving it.
    >>> Oh how I've seen myself in dreamlike cinerama kung-fu kicking the
    >>> living lights out of him. Foot to head and fist to ball bag.

    >>
    >> Camden Police left a few decoy bikes around. All were stolen within an
    >> hour IIRC. They led the police to thieves and their caches of product
    >> that weren't just bicycles. They were happy with the results.

    >
    > It's entrapment. Im still not clear if that's legal ?
    >
    > http://news.zdnet.co.uk/emergingtech/0,1000000183,2084226,00.htm



    No it's not entrapment. In the Lockley case which you use as an example
    the police set up a site with illegal content, and committed an act
    which if it was done by anyone else would be illegal in itself, they
    then asked people to join with them in that illegal activity.

    With the sting bike, the bike is not illegal, the parking of it is not
    illegal, and the police are not doing anything illegal or asking anyone
    to join them.

    It would be entrapment if the police went along to some scrotes and said
    " There is a bike over there without a lock, lets nick it!"
     
  14. Dylan Smith

    Dylan Smith Guest

    On 2007-08-02, howard <famous415minutes@gmail.com> wrote:
    >> Camden Police left a few decoy bikes around. All were stolen within an
    >> hour IIRC. They led the police to thieves and their caches of product
    >> that weren't just bicycles. They were happy with the results.

    >
    > It's entrapment. Im still not clear if that's legal ?


    No it's not. Entrapment would be, say, if the police officer actively
    encouraged somebody to commit a crime. Leaving a bicycle parked that
    happens to belong to the police, and which they happen to be able to
    track is not entrapment, because normally law abiding people would not
    steal the bike.

    --
    Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
    Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
     
  15. Douglas Hall

    Douglas Hall Guest

    "congokid" <congokid@congokid.com> wrote in message
    news:Vyk6iHbi9isGFwCr@congokid.demon.co.uk...

    (umtm crosspost dropped)

    > On my visits to the swimming pool, I take off the front wheel and lock it
    > along with the frame and back wheel to a railing or Sheffield stand
    > depending on which pool I'm at. Like you I remove the saddle, but also the
    > seat post and bring them inside with me. I'm not losing another Brooks.


    Is that 'cos your seatpost has a quick-release on it, or do you take it
    based on "if it's not nailed down some scrote will nick it..."?

    I don't currently leave my bike locked up much outside anywhere at the
    moment, but I changed the qr on the seatpost clamp to an allen key bolt,
    some years back - I'm guessing that's probably not good enough, were I to
    leave it somewhere?
     
  16. John Rowland

    John Rowland Guest

    Dylan Smith wrote:
    > On 2007-08-02, howard <famous415minutes@gmail.com> wrote:
    >>> Camden Police left a few decoy bikes around. All were stolen within
    >>> an hour IIRC. They led the police to thieves and their caches of
    >>> product that weren't just bicycles. They were happy with the
    >>> results.

    >>
    >> It's entrapment. Im still not clear if that's legal ?

    >
    > No it's not. Entrapment would be, say, if the police officer actively
    > encouraged somebody to commit a crime. Leaving a bicycle parked that
    > happens to belong to the police, and which they happen to be able to
    > track is not entrapment, because normally law abiding people would not
    > steal the bike.


    So is picking up something you find in the street a crime? I have often
    taken home swivel chairs which I have found in the street, or in an office's
    back yard next to the bins - was that a crime? If I found an unlocked bike
    with nobody near, I would consider it to be abandoned and presume that if I
    didn't take it, someone else would.
     
  17. Clive George

    Clive George Guest

    "John Rowland" <johnr@journeyflow.spamspam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:f8v1gc$hqu$1$830fa795@news.demon.co.uk...

    > So is picking up something you find in the street a crime?


    Depends.

    > I have often taken home swivel chairs which I have found in the street, or
    > in an office's back yard next to the bins - was that a crime?


    Depends. ("often"? you have a house full of the things?)

    > If I found an unlocked bike with nobody near, I would consider it to be
    > abandoned and presume that if I didn't take it, someone else would.


    Define "nobody near" and "abandoned".

    If you see an unlocked bike and walk off with it, that is quite likely to be
    theft. The fact that somebody else may have taken it later doesn't make you
    any less of a criminal - you would be as bad as they are.

    If you have taken adequate steps to ensure the bike has been abandoned, then
    fine. Otherwise you need to readjust your moral compass - the behaviour
    you're espousing is both morally and legally wrong.

    clive
     
  18. John Rowland said the following on 03/08/2007 11:54:
    > Dylan Smith wrote:
    >> On 2007-08-02, howard <famous415minutes@gmail.com> wrote:
    >>>> Camden Police left a few decoy bikes around. All were stolen within
    >>>> an hour IIRC. They led the police to thieves and their caches of
    >>>> product that weren't just bicycles. They were happy with the
    >>>> results.
    >>> It's entrapment. Im still not clear if that's legal ?

    >> No it's not. Entrapment would be, say, if the police officer actively
    >> encouraged somebody to commit a crime. Leaving a bicycle parked that
    >> happens to belong to the police, and which they happen to be able to
    >> track is not entrapment, because normally law abiding people would not
    >> steal the bike.

    >
    > So is picking up something you find in the street a crime? I have often
    > taken home swivel chairs which I have found in the street, or in an office's
    > back yard next to the bins - was that a crime? If I found an unlocked bike
    > with nobody near, I would consider it to be abandoned and presume that if I
    > didn't take it, someone else would.


    AFAIR you then report it to the nearest police station and see what they
    say.

    It all gets a bit foggy when people start a system whereby they leave
    stuff out on the pavement for people to take, which is what happens
    around the streets of Cowley in Oxford. It's best to ask the houseowner
    on that count. I saw a computer left on the pavement in Croydon, called
    the police to ask if I could take it and they said "don't touch it!"

    If you think about it, that item was not yours in the first place so you
    have to take that into account.


    Richard.
     
  19. Ace

    Ace Guest

    On Fri, 3 Aug 2007 12:06:40 +0100, "Clive George"
    <clive@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

    >"John Rowland" <johnr@journeyflow.spamspam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
    >news:f8v1gc$hqu$1$830fa795@news.demon.co.uk...


    >> If I found an unlocked bike with nobody near, I would consider it to be
    >> abandoned and presume that if I didn't take it, someone else would.

    >
    >Define "nobody near" and "abandoned".
    >
    >If you see an unlocked bike and walk off with it, that is quite likely to be
    >theft.


    No "likely" about it - it's theft, pure and simple.

    >The fact that somebody else may have taken it later doesn't make you
    >any less of a criminal - you would be as bad as they are.


    Indeed.

    >If you have taken adequate steps to ensure the bike has been abandoned, then
    >fine.


    "Adequate steps" being, tell the poilce it's there and wait for them
    to tell you you can have it.

    --
    Ace in Alsace - brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom
     
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