Re: Car vs. Bike vs. the Law

Discussion in 'Mountain Bikes' started by jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org, Nov 28, 2005.

  1. Someone writes:

    >> Just saw this. As I've had a few memorable moments with aggressive
    >> drivers


    http://tinyurl.com/7asqu

    >> I thought I'd post this legal advice from Bob Moinske:


    http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/9204.0.html

    > He forgot Assault With a Deadly Weapon (the car is a deadly weapon),
    > which is a felony.


    Which is the reason why a Highway patrol officer told a "trucker" to
    beat it after he saw the guy bump me with his truck and I pounded my
    fist on his hood and said "Cut it out"! He explained how serious an
    offense that would be before a judge and the guy (with his woman)
    vamoosed. This was in front of the San Gregorio Store, a common
    hangout for Bicyclists, Bikers and "truckers", none of whom
    communicate with each other on the premises. The bicyclists are least
    welcome from the demeanor of the store clerks and the destructive
    bicycle rack they offer, a pipe device with a single row of vertical
    bars spaced about four inches apart.

    Jobst Brandt
     
    Tags:


  2. damyth

    damyth Guest

    jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
    > Someone writes:
    >
    > >> Just saw this. As I've had a few memorable moments with aggressive
    > >> drivers

    >
    > http://tinyurl.com/7asqu
    >
    > >> I thought I'd post this legal advice from Bob Moinske:

    >
    > http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/9204.0.html
    >
    > > He forgot Assault With a Deadly Weapon (the car is a deadly weapon),
    > > which is a felony.

    >
    > Which is the reason why a Highway patrol officer told a "trucker" to
    > beat it after he saw the guy bump me with his truck and I pounded my
    > fist on his hood and said "Cut it out"! He explained how serious an
    > offense that would be before a judge and the guy (with his woman)
    > vamoosed. This was in front of the San Gregorio Store, a common
    > hangout for Bicyclists, Bikers and "truckers", none of whom
    > communicate with each other on the premises. The bicyclists are least
    > welcome from the demeanor of the store clerks and the destructive
    > bicycle rack they offer, a pipe device with a single row of vertical
    > bars spaced about four inches apart.
    >
    > Jobst Brandt


    Was there a reason you didn't press charges against the trucker? And
    are you in effect saying the CHP officer was an accomplice to the
    trucker's "escape," despite witnessing the assault incident?
     
  3. Someone writes:

    >>>> Just saw this. As I've had a few memorable moments with
    >>>> aggressive drivers


    http://tinyurl.com/7asqu

    >>>> I thought I'd post this legal advice from Bob Moinske:


    >> http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/9204.0.html


    >>> He forgot Assault With a Deadly Weapon (the car is a deadly
    >>> weapon), which is a felony.


    >> Which is the reason why a Highway patrol officer told a "trucker"
    >> to beat it after he saw the guy bump me with his truck and I
    >> pounded my fist on his hood and said "Cut it out"! He explained
    >> how serious an offense that would be before a judge and the guy
    >> (with his woman) vamoosed. This was in front of the San Gregorio
    >> Store, a common hangout for Bicyclists, Bikers and "truckers", none
    >> of whom communicate with each other on the premises. The
    >> bicyclists are least welcome from the demeanor of the store clerks
    >> and the destructive bicycle rack they offer, a pipe device with a
    >> single row of vertical bars spaced about four inches apart.


    > Was there a reason you didn't press charges against the trucker?
    > And are you in effect saying the CHP officer was an accomplice to
    > the trucker's "escape," despite witnessing the assault incident?


    The reason was that I put a nice dent in the guys hood of a brand new
    pickup truck and I felt he was punished enough. These truckers take
    their vehicles personally and the blood pressure was visibly extreme.
    I was standing there in front of the store where the parking lot
    blends with the road and he felt I should get out of the way even
    though I was probably not on the road and who cares. He drove up,
    honked and didn't stop until he saw that he had moved my bicycle under
    me. That's when I slammed my fist on his hood and yelled "cut it
    out!"

    Since then I had a similar experience in Brig Switzerland. That
    driver was hustled out of the scene by the people who were next to me
    in the crosswalk. His dent was probably more expensive, considering
    it was a more civilized car. While i banged on his hood the people
    around me jumped back, convinced he wasn't going to stop when his
    bumper hit my leg. I was ready to do a PLF on his car if he went
    farther. A bicycle being walked in a crosswalk was a red flag for
    this guy.

    Jobst Brandt
     
  4. On 29 Nov 2005 06:15:09 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

    >Since then I had a similar experience in Brig Switzerland. That
    >driver was hustled out of the scene by the people who were next to me
    >in the crosswalk. His dent was probably more expensive, considering
    >it was a more civilized car. While i banged on his hood the people
    >around me jumped back, convinced he wasn't going to stop when his
    >bumper hit my leg. I was ready to do a PLF on his car if he went
    >farther. A bicycle being walked in a crosswalk was a red flag for
    >this guy.


    I've had that happen, right in the middle of a big bike-plentiful city in
    bike-plentiful Netherlands. It was a big, expensive, nearly new Mercedes.
    I was crossing in front of it with my bike beside me, it kept inching
    forward, I stopped walking when it was about 4 inches away, and it hit me
    in the shin. I'm not sure what I did at that point -- I probably just
    shouted at him. Anyway, the driver got out and tried to justify himself
    ("If you'd just kept walking I wouldn't have hit you!" Well, maybe not,
    but it would have been very close and he *would* have hit the bike.). We
    shouted at each other some more, he drove me into a corner against the
    car, and eventually I decided to just walk away, but not before giving the
    door of the car he backed me against a good kick (well, I write 'decided',
    but I wasn't particularly rational at the time -- the guy was twice as big
    as me, teenage kid, and the adrenaline was flowing copiously, as it is in
    fact now writing about it a decade later). The guy came after me, caught
    up with me half a block away, grabbed me by the lapels, and physically
    dragged me back, screaming all the way about how it wasn't his car, but
    the bank's, in order to show me much damage I had done to his car.


    Absolutely nothing.

    He eventually calmed down a little bit and drove off, or seemed to, but
    when I came out of the store I went into to cool off, both my tyres were
    slashed.

    In retrospect, I should probably have reported him the the police, and in
    fact one or two bystanders came up to me to offer their help as witnesses,
    but I did what I usually did in cases like that back then, which is blow
    them off and go stand somewhere to let the adrenaline dissipate.


    Jasper
     
  5. jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

    > ...the San Gregorio Store, a common
    > hangout for Bicyclists.... The
    > bicyclists are least welcome from the demeanor of the
    > store clerks and the destructive bicycle rack they
    > offer,...



    Funny, I've been in there many times in bike gear and
    never been treated with anything but friendly and efficient
    service. My bike and those of all present fit just fine and
    with no damage, much less "destruction," on the racks, plural,
    available.

    Perhaps someone is putting out some not-so-friendly vibes
    himself?


    > a pipe device with a single row of vertical bars spaced
    > about four inches apart.
    > Jobst Brandt
     
  6. JD

    JD Guest

    jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
    > Since then I had a similar experience in Brig Switzerland. That
    > driver was hustled out of the scene by the people who were next to me
    > in the crosswalk. His dent was probably more expensive, considering
    > it was a more civilized car. While i banged on his hood the people
    > around me jumped back, convinced he wasn't going to stop when his
    > bumper hit my leg. I was ready to do a PLF on his car if he went
    > farther. A bicycle being walked in a crosswalk was a red flag for
    > this guy.
    >
    > Jobst Brandt



    Better to do a PLF on the car than a PFL on the pavement. Three weeks
    of learning how to fall down being ingrained in my head has paid off
    for a lifetime of crashes that could have been much worse.

    JD
     
  7. Ron Ruff

    Ron Ruff Guest

    JD wrote:
    >
    > Better to do a PLF on the car than a PFL on the pavement.


    PLF?
    PFL?
     
  8. JD

    JD Guest

    Ron Ruff wrote:
    > JD wrote:
    > >
    > > Better to do a PLF on the car than a PFL on the pavement.

    >
    > PLF?
    > PFL?



    Parachute Landing Fall

    Pretty F***ed Landing

    JD all the way (and then some)
     
  9. Ron Ruff writes:

    >> Better to do a PLF on the car than a PFL on the pavement.


    > PLF?
    > PFL?


    Parachute Landing Fall

    aka "fold legs in a semi upright fall, rolling to one side (while
    pulling on the shrouds with extended arms). Of course I have no
    parachute but the collapsing fall helps prevent the broken leg.
    Parachutes fall at about 15MPH for combat jumps and 10MPH for
    civilians.

    Jobst Brandt
     
  10. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

    >Ron Ruff writes:
    >
    >>> Better to do a PLF on the car than a PFL on the pavement.

    >
    >> PLF?
    >> PFL?

    >
    >Parachute Landing Fall
    >
    >aka "fold legs in a semi upright fall, rolling to one side (while
    >pulling on the shrouds with extended arms). Of course I have no
    >parachute but the collapsing fall helps prevent the broken leg.
    >Parachutes fall at about 15MPH for combat jumps and 10MPH for
    >civilians.


    Not any more - they land as slow (vertically) as you want 'em to since
    virtually everyone has moved to the airfoil chutes. Transfers all the
    bumps and bruises back to the mountain bikers.

    An ex-Ranger buddy of mine tells some great stories about jumping with
    the old round chutes though... I saw him put those skills into action
    once when he got whacked by a drunk on a four-wheeler (something I
    hope I never get to see again...)

    Mark "would rather rock & roll than drop & roll" Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $795 ti frame
     
  11. Shawn

    Shawn Guest

    Mark Hickey wrote:
    > jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Ron Ruff writes:
    >>
    >>
    >>>>Better to do a PLF on the car than a PFL on the pavement.

    >>
    >>>PLF?
    >>>PFL?

    >>
    >>Parachute Landing Fall
    >>
    >>aka "fold legs in a semi upright fall, rolling to one side (while
    >>pulling on the shrouds with extended arms). Of course I have no
    >>parachute but the collapsing fall helps prevent the broken leg.
    >>Parachutes fall at about 15MPH for combat jumps and 10MPH for
    >>civilians.

    >
    >
    > Not any more - they land as slow (vertically) as you want 'em to since
    > virtually everyone has moved to the airfoil chutes.


    Not true, emergency chutes are still round.
    http://www.nationalparachute.com/page3.html

    Shawn
     
  12. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    Shawn <sdotherecurry@bresnannextdotnet> wrote:

    >Mark Hickey wrote:
    >> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:


    >>>aka "fold legs in a semi upright fall, rolling to one side (while
    >>>pulling on the shrouds with extended arms). Of course I have no
    >>>parachute but the collapsing fall helps prevent the broken leg.
    >>>Parachutes fall at about 15MPH for combat jumps and 10MPH for
    >>>civilians.

    >>
    >> Not any more - they land as slow (vertically) as you want 'em to since
    >> virtually everyone has moved to the airfoil chutes.

    >
    >Not true, emergency chutes are still round.
    >http://www.nationalparachute.com/page3.html


    That's why I said "virtually"... the 'chutes that are built to recover
    entire aircraft are also round, as are those that recover
    spacecraft... but on a "percentage popped" basis, I would imagine it's
    way under 1% total.

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $795 ti frame
     
  13. JD

    JD Guest

    Mark Hickey wrote:
    > Shawn <sdotherecurry@bresnannextdotnet> wrote:
    >
    > >Mark Hickey wrote:
    > >> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

    >
    > >>>aka "fold legs in a semi upright fall, rolling to one side (while
    > >>>pulling on the shrouds with extended arms). Of course I have no
    > >>>parachute but the collapsing fall helps prevent the broken leg.
    > >>>Parachutes fall at about 15MPH for combat jumps and 10MPH for
    > >>>civilians.
    > >>
    > >> Not any more - they land as slow (vertically) as you want 'em to since
    > >> virtually everyone has moved to the airfoil chutes.

    > >
    > >Not true, emergency chutes are still round.
    > >http://www.nationalparachute.com/page3.html

    >
    > That's why I said "virtually"... the 'chutes that are built to recover
    > entire aircraft are also round, as are those that recover
    > spacecraft... but on a "percentage popped" basis, I would imagine it's
    > way under 1% total.
    >
    > Mark Hickey



    I'll take that bet: http://www.airbornesystems-na.com/troop2.html

    Have you ever seen a mass tactical airborne exercise? Heavy equipment,
    CDS, LAPES and personnel use round chutes to this day in the military.
    Bet me that under 1% popped and I'll take all of your money.

    JD
     
  14. Matt O'Toole

    Matt O'Toole Guest

    On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:54:52 -0700, Mark Hickey wrote:

    > jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:


    >>Parachute Landing Fall


    >>aka "fold legs in a semi upright fall, rolling to one side (while
    >>pulling on the shrouds with extended arms). Of course I have no
    >>parachute but the collapsing fall helps prevent the broken leg.
    >>Parachutes fall at about 15MPH for combat jumps and 10MPH for
    >>civilians.


    > Not any more - they land as slow (vertically) as you want 'em to since
    > virtually everyone has moved to the airfoil chutes. Transfers all the
    > bumps and bruises back to the mountain bikers.


    > An ex-Ranger buddy of mine tells some great stories about jumping with
    > the old round chutes though... I saw him put those skills into action
    > once when he got whacked by a drunk on a four-wheeler (something I
    > hope I never get to see again...)


    They still need those skills for when the wind is blowing, and/or the
    ground isn't flat.

    Matt O.
     
  15. Shawn

    Shawn Guest

    Mark Hickey wrote:
    > Shawn <sdotherecurry@bresnannextdotnet> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Mark Hickey wrote:
    >>
    >>>jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

    >
    >
    >>>>aka "fold legs in a semi upright fall, rolling to one side (while
    >>>>pulling on the shrouds with extended arms). Of course I have no
    >>>>parachute but the collapsing fall helps prevent the broken leg.
    >>>>Parachutes fall at about 15MPH for combat jumps and 10MPH for
    >>>>civilians.
    >>>
    >>>Not any more - they land as slow (vertically) as you want 'em to since
    >>>virtually everyone has moved to the airfoil chutes.

    >>
    >>Not true, emergency chutes are still round.
    >>http://www.nationalparachute.com/page3.html

    >
    >
    > That's why I said "virtually"... the 'chutes that are built to recover
    > entire aircraft are also round, as are those that recover
    > spacecraft... but on a "percentage popped" basis, I would imagine it's
    > way under 1% total.


    I'm sure your right civilians-wise (see JDs post). I was thinking of
    chutes worn, mostly in gliders and aerobatics. The only time I ever
    opened mine were when I was retiring an ancient chute I didn't trust
    (came with the glider) and my new chute, at the rigger's loft.

    Shawn
     
  16. Mark Hickey writes:

    >>>> Better to do a PLF on the car than a PFL on the pavement.


    >>> PLF?
    >>> PFL?


    >> Parachute Landing Fall


    >> aka "fold legs in a semi upright fall, rolling to one side (while
    >> pulling on the shrouds with extended arms). Of course I have no
    >> parachute but the collapsing fall helps prevent the broken leg.
    >> Parachutes fall at about 15MPH for combat jumps and 10MPH for
    >> civilians.


    > Not any more - they land as slow (vertically) as you want 'em to
    > since virtually everyone has moved to the airfoil chutes. Transfers
    > all the bumps and bruises back to the mountain bikers.


    Combat jumps are made at the highest safe rate for landing to minimize
    exposure to small arms fire. I'm sure you would not like to go as
    slow as possible, in a jump behind enemy lines.

    > An ex-Ranger buddy of mine tells some great stories about jumping
    > with the old round chutes though... I saw him put those skills into
    > action once when he got whacked by a drunk on a four-wheeler
    > (something I hope I never get to see again...)


    It's not the shape of the chute but its rate of descent that is
    important for combat use.

    Jobst Brandt
     
  17. JD

    JD Guest

    jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
    > Mark Hickey writes:
    >
    > >>>> Better to do a PLF on the car than a PFL on the pavement.

    >
    > >>> PLF?
    > >>> PFL?

    >
    > >> Parachute Landing Fall

    >
    > >> aka "fold legs in a semi upright fall, rolling to one side (while
    > >> pulling on the shrouds with extended arms). Of course I have no
    > >> parachute but the collapsing fall helps prevent the broken leg.
    > >> Parachutes fall at about 15MPH for combat jumps and 10MPH for
    > >> civilians.

    >
    > > Not any more - they land as slow (vertically) as you want 'em to
    > > since virtually everyone has moved to the airfoil chutes. Transfers
    > > all the bumps and bruises back to the mountain bikers.

    >
    > Combat jumps are made at the highest safe rate for landing to minimize
    > exposure to small arms fire. I'm sure you would not like to go as
    > slow as possible, in a jump behind enemy lines.



    In a static-line jump a low drop altitude is also used to minimize
    exposure. True combat jumps have been known to go as low as 500 AGL
    with no reserve chute worn.

    > > An ex-Ranger buddy of mine tells some great stories about jumping
    > > with the old round chutes though... I saw him put those skills into
    > > action once when he got whacked by a drunk on a four-wheeler
    > > (something I hope I never get to see again...)

    >
    > It's not the shape of the chute but its rate of descent that is
    > important for combat use.
    >
    > Jobst Brandt



    Which is why modern ram-air parachutes are also applicable in HALO and
    HAHO drops as well because an individual with superior canopy control
    can get a much quicker rate of descent than a standard MC1-1B or T-10
    will allow. Canopy control is the reason so many sport parachutists
    make their landings look so soft.

    One thing left out of all of this as well would be how heavy is the
    air? Even a good PLF can't soften the blow much while jumping a round
    'chute in high and dry altitudes.

    JD
     
  18. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    "JD" <CKAGMD@webtv.net> wrote:

    >Mark Hickey wrote:
    >> Shawn <sdotherecurry@bresnannextdotnet> wrote:
    >> >Mark Hickey wrote:
    >> >> Not any more - they land as slow (vertically) as you want 'em to since
    >> >> virtually everyone has moved to the airfoil chutes.
    >> >
    >> >Not true, emergency chutes are still round.
    >> >http://www.nationalparachute.com/page3.html

    >>
    >> That's why I said "virtually"... the 'chutes that are built to recover
    >> entire aircraft are also round, as are those that recover
    >> spacecraft... but on a "percentage popped" basis, I would imagine it's
    >> way under 1% total.

    >
    >I'll take that bet: http://www.airbornesystems-na.com/troop2.html
    >
    >Have you ever seen a mass tactical airborne exercise? Heavy equipment,
    >CDS, LAPES and personnel use round chutes to this day in the military.
    >Bet me that under 1% popped and I'll take all of your money.


    I can figure the military equipment using round 'chutes (and would
    hope that they aren't dropping THAT much equipment out of airplanes
    regularly), but I'd hate to jump out of an airplane over people who
    want to use me for target practice without being able to control where
    I come down (beyond a very narrow cone). Then again, I've heard
    stories about mid-air collisions with round 'chutes - I guess it would
    just be worse with wings.

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $795 ti frame
     
  19. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

    >Mark Hickey writes:
    >
    >> Not any more - they land as slow (vertically) as you want 'em to
    >> since virtually everyone has moved to the airfoil chutes. Transfers
    >> all the bumps and bruises back to the mountain bikers.

    >
    >Combat jumps are made at the highest safe rate for landing to minimize
    >exposure to small arms fire. I'm sure you would not like to go as
    >slow as possible, in a jump behind enemy lines.


    That's the beauty of a wing - you can drop like a rock when necessary,
    and flare to land as soft as on a pillow. Plus, you can fly out of
    harm's way a considerable distance if you happened to jump out over a
    hot spot.

    >> An ex-Ranger buddy of mine tells some great stories about jumping
    >> with the old round chutes though... I saw him put those skills into
    >> action once when he got whacked by a drunk on a four-wheeler
    >> (something I hope I never get to see again...)

    >
    >It's not the shape of the chute but its rate of descent that is
    >important for combat use.


    I wager he was going considerably faster when he hit the ground coming
    off that motorcycle though... (otherwise second jumps would be VERY
    traumatic).

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $795 ti frame
     
  20. On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:54:52 -0700, Mark Hickey <mark@habcycles.com>
    wrote:

    >>Parachutes fall at about 15MPH for combat jumps and 10MPH for
    >>civilians.

    >
    >Not any more - they land as slow (vertically) as you want 'em to since
    >virtually everyone has moved to the airfoil chutes. Transfers all the
    >bumps and bruises back to the mountain bikers.


    Does that include all the military units? It wasn't so terribly long ago
    that I remember some docu mentioning that only the elite .mil guys used
    the steerable matresses. Seals and the like.

    Jasper
     
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