Re: There's Good Fat And Bad

Discussion in 'Food and nutrition' started by montygram, Jan 25, 2005.

  1. montygram

    montygram Guest

    The first study is either doctored or flawed. I've contacted
    researchers who have written up such nonsense, and they won't even
    supply a fellow scholar such as myself the survey forms they use.
    There is no way to know exactly what happened here, if anything of
    note. We don't know if they were all eating the same amount of
    calories. We don't know if the researchers are classifying lard as
    "saturated fat" when in fact it is 39% or less saturated. We do know
    that polyunsaturated fatty acids are highly susceptible to lipid
    peroxidation, which directly causes oxidation of cholesterol, and that
    in turn causes the inflammatory process that leads to "heart disease."
    The biochemical mechanism is known, and has been known for a decade or
    so, at the very least. If someone eats a diet high in polyunsaturated
    fatty acids, but also eats plenty of antioxidants, and does not eat too
    many calories, this is not nearly as dangerous as the typical American
    diet, which is high in polyunsaturates, low in antioxidants, and very
    high in calories. But the first study really is not science, unless or
    until the raw data is available. And if that is done, it is likely
    that the key cofactors were not documents, such as the caloric loads,
    the exact foods consumed, the antioxidant contents of the foods
    consumed by the two groups, etc.

    Ask yourself this question, if people should be eating large amounts of
    polyunsaturates, why are governments such as the US no longer
    recommeding them after a couple of decades of doing so? Now all we
    hear about is the how great monounsaturates are, but that was what they
    used to say about polyunsaturates in the 1970s and 80s. What changed?
    They realized how dangerous polyunsaturates are but they couldn't come
    out and say it because they'd be making themselves look really stupid.

    Now they're telling people to eat fish, which isn't as bad because most
    people won't eat too much fish (due to taste), whereas a primary fat
    source is needed and would be dangerous if it was high in
    polyunsaturated fatty acids. Notice that they say not to fry it, and
    that's because doing so makes it more susceptible to lipid
    peroxidation. Isn't it interesting, though, that they don't tell you
    that the Eskimos, who ate plenty of fish but didn't fry it, rarely
    lived beyond their mid 40s. Why? Because omega 3 PUFAs and omeg 6
    PUFAs are like two sides of a coin bearing a contagious disease. Omega
    3s are vasodilative, and over time your arteries basically
    disintegrate, whereas the omega 6s do the opposite, and you get plaques
    and clots. The two counteract each other, so that's why there seems to
    be a "health benefit" to people on a high omega 6 diet who eat some
    omega 3s (as opposed to those who eat nearly none), but both can be
    highly susceptible to lipid peroxidation. Unless you keep calories
    down and eat plenty of antioxidants, you are setting yourself up for
    disaster, though you might get the extra few months or so of life the
    epidemiological studies predict. However, if the omega 6s get stored
    up in your body as arachidonic acid, you're in for big trouble. Do a
    pubmed.com search for arachidonic and you'll see what I mean. Better
    to avoid unsaturated fatty acids, except for tiny amounts, such as in
    organic olives and high-quality tahini sauce (I use .5 teaspoon of
    tahini to flavor a Sweet & Sour Asian dish). Butter, coconut oil, raw
    cheeses, dark chocolate, shellfish, and eggs are okay fat/protein
    sources, but don't cook while exposed to air. I warm up these foods in
    a saucepan on a low setting. Using tomato sauce or red wine (and other
    antioxidant rich liquids) in the saucepan further helps to prevent
    lipid peroxidation during this mild cooking process. This seems to be
    the reason for the so-called French Paradox, so plenty of full-fat,
    organic, non-homogenized dairy or shellfish (make sure it doesn't have
    carrageenan in it) is fine at low temperature cooking, but avoid meat
    and scrambled eggs (boiling eggs is okay). Good quality meat is
    supposedly okay in small amounts if you boil it or eat it raw (after
    more than 2 weeks in the freezer, but I don't really care for the taste
    anyway).
     
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  2. MMu

    MMu Guest

    > The first study is either doctored or flawed. I've contacted
    > researchers who have written up such nonsense, and they won't even
    > supply a fellow scholar such as myself the survey forms they use.


    Did you read the full article (in the journal) or do you just judge by what
    some people wrote up on this website about it (I guess not because the
    articles are not yet available on pubmed)? Did you ask these authors
    specifically about their survey forms?

    What exactly did you study (you mentioned you are a "fellow scholar").. I
    would imagine authors would not send material to someone they don't know or
    someone who does not work in the field.

    > There is no way to know exactly what happened here, if anything of
    > note. We don't know if they were all eating the same amount of
    > calories. We don't know if the researchers are classifying lard as
    > "saturated fat" when in fact it is 39% or less saturated. We do know
    > that polyunsaturated fatty acids are highly susceptible to lipid
    > peroxidation, which directly causes oxidation of cholesterol, and that
    > in turn causes the inflammatory process that leads to "heart disease."


    That why people read full text articles.
    It does not make sense writing all that detail in a general report.

    > The biochemical mechanism is known, and has been known for a decade or
    > so, at the very least. If someone eats a diet high in polyunsaturated
    > fatty acids, but also eats plenty of antioxidants, and does not eat too
    > many calories, this is not nearly as dangerous as the typical American
    > diet, which is high in polyunsaturates, low in antioxidants, and very
    > high in calories.


    I agree; but diets high in polyunsaturated fatty acids usually DO have a
    higher ammount of antioxidants. That you should not FRY with pufa-rich fats
    is well know and to my knowledge has been preached for years (at least in
    europe) by pretty much everyone.

    > But the first study really is not science, unless or
    > until the raw data is available. And if that is done, it is likely
    > that the key cofactors were not documents, such as the caloric loads,
    > the exact foods consumed, the antioxidant contents of the foods
    > consumed by the two groups, etc.


    Well.. how would you imagine can anyone calculate the ammount of
    polyunsaturated fats in the food if not by asking "what did you eat?" with a
    survey?

    > Ask yourself this question, if people should be eating large amounts of
    > polyunsaturates, why are governments such as the US no longer
    > recommeding them after a couple of decades of doing so? Now all we
    > hear about is the how great monounsaturates are, but that was what they
    > used to say about polyunsaturates in the 1970s and 80s. What changed?
    > They realized how dangerous polyunsaturates are but they couldn't come
    > out and say it because they'd be making themselves look really stupid.


    This is an argument for everything then?
    "You think this is good? Well, they said that some other thing is good a few
    years ago and found out its not.."

    You push the french paradoxon, but what about mediterranian diet? (ie.
    monunsaturates).

    >Isn't it interesting, though, that they don't tell you
    > that the Eskimos, who ate plenty of fish but didn't fry it, rarely
    > lived beyond their mid 40s.


    Well eskimos eat nothing pretty much nothing BUT fish.. I don't think that
    is much of a healthy diet there anyways; also.. the climate they live in
    can't really be compared to central america.. I hope you agree there at
    least.
     
  3. montygram

    montygram Guest

    Most of the olive oil consumed in the US is the low grade, which is
    usedx in lipid peroxidation experiments - that's how bad it is. Read
    my other posts, do a search for montygram. I can't keep posting the
    same stuff over and over again. When my new book is published, I'll
    post a chapter here, and people who want a copy can email me directly.
    The book will explain exactly what is going on in science today, in the
    diet/health context.
     

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