The "Placebo/Power of Suggestion" Effect.

  • Thread starter Kathryn Friesen
  • Start date



>This is not true, not even remotely.

LOL. I am not a liar. It is true.



BL

"As the waves pass the rock, their shape is changed. There is a hologram of
the rock within the wave that comes forward and crashes on the beach, then
there's a reflected wave back." Ralph Abraham

"I'd like to learn to windsurf." BL
 
>>This is not true, not even remotely.
>
>LOL. I am not a liar.


I'm inclined to agree with you on that. That's why I didn't accuse you of
lying.

>It is true.


I'm certain it is true that you were told this and I'm equally certain you
believe it to be true. That being said, there are people who truly believe
they've seen Elvis in the 80's, 90's, & 00's.

>BL


This story, no matter how sincerely believed, is an example of the pernicious
non-sense and magical thinking that are rampant in alt-med. To go around
telling people serious, life-threatening, BONA-FIDE allergies can be treated by
such farcical methods is irresponsible.

But, I'm sure it makes you feel like a real civil libertarian.
 
>This story, no matter how sincerely believed, is an example of the pernicious
>non-sense and magical thinking that are rampant in alt-med.


Actually it is an example of the closed mind of people who believe that nothing
that they personally do not comprehend could possibly be true, despite evidence
to the contrary (albeit anecdotal or case study).

I am not forcing you to believe the story--although it is accurate.





BL

"As the waves pass the rock, their shape is changed. There is a hologram of
the rock within the wave that comes forward and crashes on the beach, then
there's a reflected wave back." Ralph Abraham

"I'd like to learn to windsurf." BL
 
>>This story, no matter how sincerely believed, is an example of the
>pernicious
>>non-sense and magical thinking that are rampant in alt-med.

>
>Actually it is an example of the closed mind of people who believe that
>nothing
>that they personally do not comprehend could possibly be true, despite
>evidence
>to the contrary (albeit anecdotal or case study).


So, by your "reasoning", your (suspected) refusal to believe ALL the
post-mortem Elvis sightings is an example of a closed mind. FWIW, it would be
nearly impossible to test whether or not someone had actually seen Elvis, but
it would be very simple to test the story about the peanut allergy. It would,
however, be very hard on the family who would likely have to bury her, but hey,
at least she died acting-out her beliefs!

>
>I am not forcing you to believe the story--although it is accurate.
>
>
>
 
a. she didn't die.

b. she had the epi pen ready for a possible reaction.

c. before she did this she touched the peanuts and made sure she no longer got
whelps.

Elvis sightings? A diversion.


BL

"As the waves pass the rock, their shape is changed. There is a hologram of
the rock within the wave that comes forward and crashes on the beach, then
there's a reflected wave back." Ralph Abraham

"I'd like to learn to windsurf." BL
 
>a. she didn't die.

She didn't eat peanuts, either.

>
>b. she had the epi pen ready for a possible reaction.


See above.

>
>c. before she did this she touched the peanuts and made sure she no longer
>got
>whelps.
>
>Elvis sightings? A diversion.


Nope, just an equally likely phenomenon.

>
>
>BL
>
 
I agree that I am an anonymous internet poster and that everyone should take
EVERYTHING said on the internet with a grain of salt!!

But...............the story is true. She had terrible life threatening
reactions to peanuts, and had about a dozen NAET treatments, then ate three
peanuts at the hospital, epi pen available and had no reaction.

And, nobody is under any obligation to believe the story. Your loss.




BL

"As the waves pass the rock, their shape is changed. There is a hologram of
the rock within the wave that comes forward and crashes on the beach, then
there's a reflected wave back." Ralph Abraham

"I'd like to learn to windsurf." BL
 
>I agree that I am an anonymous internet poster and that everyone should take
>EVERYTHING said on the internet with a grain of salt!!
>
>But...............the story is true. She had terrible life threatening
>reactions to peanuts, and had about a dozen NAET treatments, then ate three
>peanuts at the hospital, epi pen available and had no reaction.
>


But...............you were not witness to the event, were you?

>And, nobody is under any obligation to believe the story.


Most of us are obliged to disregard Elvis sightings in the past 20 years as
well as those "phenomenon" which similarly fail the giggle test.

>Your loss.


No, the loss is to your credibility or, if you prefer, the gain is to your
credulousness.
 
You guys are eventually going to have to deal with the fact that NAET works.
You can start now, or you can start later. Your choice.


BL

"As the waves pass the rock, their shape is changed. There is a hologram of
the rock within the wave that comes forward and crashes on the beach, then
there's a reflected wave back." Ralph Abraham

"I'd like to learn to windsurf." BL
 
[email protected]orgetit (BL 1204) wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> I agree that I am an anonymous internet poster and that everyone
> should take EVERYTHING said on the internet with a grain of salt!!
>
> But...............the story is true. She had terrible life
> threatening reactions to peanuts, and had about a dozen NAET
> treatments, then ate three peanuts at the hospital, epi pen available
> and had no reaction.
>
> And, nobody is under any obligation to believe the story. Your
> loss.


I think the point here is that the claim that NAET eliminated a life-
threatening peanut allergy in someone is an extraordinary claim and
therefore requires extraordinary evidence in order for anyone to pay
attention to it. A second- or third-hand account simply doesn't cut it, if
only because many of the details are likely to mutate in the retelling.
The problem is that there are so many "friend of a friend" (FOAF) stories
told every day that turn out to be literally too fantastic to be true
as told (see snopes.com or any of Jan Harold Brunvand's books), *even* if
there's a kernel of truth in them somewhere.

If advocates of NAET want such claims to be taken seriously, they've got to
demonstrate them in a structured and controlled fashion. For example, you
could take a group of twenty peanut-allergy sufferers and collect serum
samples from all of them; these would be the "before" samples. Then you
would use some random procedure, like flipping a coin, to decide whether
each person would undergo NAET or nothing. Afterwards, you'd take "after"
serum samples from all of them, and have both the before and after samples
tested for reactivity to peanut proteins. The lab doing the testing would
*not* know which subjects had undergone NAET and which hadn't; all they'd
know is which "before" sample corresponded to which "after" sample.

You'd eliminate from consideration any subjects whose "before" samples were
negative, since that would indicate that either they were misdiagnosed, the
allergy spontaneously remitted, or the test was for some reason unreliable
in their cases. Then you'd compare the proportion of reactive "after"
samples in the NAET group with those in the "nothing" group. Ideally when
doing this, you'd know only who was in "group 1" and "group 2," not which
option each group corresponded to. If one of the groups differed
significantly from the other, then you'd "break the code" and discover
whether the less-reactive group was the one who had had NAET.

Even then, though, you'd have to decide whether the difference in
proportions was clinically important rather than statistically significant.
For example, if NAET resulted in an improvement in only 1% of sufferers
(OK, OK, twenty people isn't enough to detect such a small effect), you'd
have to question its clinical utility in treating a fairly rare condition
(OTOH, if you were dealing with something very common like heart disease,
improvement in 1% of the subjects would be quite important clinically).

The point is that if such a study (for which you could probably get an
NCCAM grant) were to show positive results, you *would* have extraordinary
evidence for your extraordinary claim. Others would still have to
replicate your result before it could be generally accepted, but since you
did a formal, structured study rather than just repeating anecdotes, your
writeup of the study and its results would contain all the information
anyone needed to replicate it, and at this point there would be plenty of
researchers clamoring to do so.

And if the results were replicated, it would be considered a breakthrough.
And in the case of peanut allergies, for which there's no existing
treatment, there are no big players with vested interests in having a new
treatment *not* be discovered.

So it's really a matter of "put up or shut up." It's often the case that
many of the claims made for various "alternative" therapies are ones that
could be tested, easily and cheaply, if their proponents merely had the
will to do so. With the NCCAM, lack of funding is no excuse. Why, then,
do the proponents whine that there's no money, that their results wouldn't
be accepted regardless of how well the tests were done, or that it's
somebody else's responsibility to do the testing? It simply doesn't make
sense, and it just fuels speculation that the reason the proponents don't
do the tests is that they aren't confident that they'll have anything to
show. If the proponents want to dispel this speculation, then all they
have to do is show a little courage and *do* the tests.

The only other reason I can imagine for the proponents' unwillingness to do
the tests is that doing so would destroy their self-styled "radical" pose
(it would be "selling out" to the "mainstream"), which would in turn
destroy their ability to sell what amounts to pre-packaged adolescent
rebellion to people who should have long ago grown out of such. Or maybe
it wouldn't. Just ask Marshall Mathers.
 
[email protected]orgetit (BL 1204) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> You guys are eventually going to have to deal with the fact that NAET works.
> You can start now, or you can start later. Your choice.
>
>
> BL
>
> "As the waves pass the rock, their shape is changed. There is a hologram of
> the rock within the wave that comes forward and crashes on the beach, then
> there's a reflected wave back." Ralph Abraham
>
> "I'd like to learn to windsurf." BL


BL
I totally agree with you, even though I don't practice NAET, I
understand its precepts. I do practice NET and have seen some amazing
results.It is definately more of an art than a science at this point.
It is getting better though.

Sean
 
>You guys are eventually going to have to deal with the fact that NAET works.

We'll gladly "deal with the fact" as soon as somebody can demonstrate that it
lives up to any of its claims. The ridiculous 80-90% cure rates touted by
practitioners translate into exactly ZERO demonstrated cures of any bona-fide,
diagnosed allergy.

>You can start now, or you can start later. Your choice.


You can group up and quit with living in fantasy land now or you can start
later. Your choice.

>BL


When YOU see Elvis, clear him for a variety of Rx meds and Big 'ole Jelly
Doughnuts. Oh, and maybe he needs some treatment for all the spinning he did
in his grave when his daughter married Michael Jackson.
 
>Subject: Re: The "Placebo/Power of Suggestion" Effect.
>From: Eric Bohlman [email protected]
>Date: 12/11/2003 12:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <[email protected]>


>If advocates of NAET want such claims to be taken seriously, they've got to
>demonstrate them in a structured and controlled fashion.


No, they do not. They can tell it worked for them. Others may indeed want to
try it.

They don't need to go into a rant of positive proof.

KISS

Jan
 
>The ridiculous 80-90% cure rates touted by
>practitioners translate into exactly ZERO demonstrated cures of any
>bona-fide,
>diagnosed allergy.


You are choosing to deal with it later. But no matter what kind of *proof* is
offered there will be something wrong with it (in your eyes). The Kail study
is pretty good............you ignore.

Deal with it later. No skin off my back.




BL

"As the waves pass the rock, their shape is changed. There is a hologram of
the rock within the wave that comes forward and crashes on the beach, then
there's a reflected wave back." Ralph Abraham

"I'd like to learn to windsurf." BL
 
>>The ridiculous 80-90% cure rates touted by
>>practitioners translate into exactly ZERO demonstrated cures of any
>>bona-fide,
>>diagnosed allergy.

>
>You are choosing to deal with it later.


What exactly is the "it" to which you refer? "It" most certainly has nothing
to do with efficacy, proven or otherwise.

NAET is healthfraud, just like Bubba said.

For those hard of hearing or just too damn selective to notice, Jan, Bubba says
NAET is health Fraud!!!!!!!!!