FREEMAP: free mapping for walkers/cyclists + a couple of questions - Page 5

In news:4050d26d$0$6549$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com,
PJD <pjd@trygonianospam.com> typed:
> Thank you for that.
>
> I have never bought a 1:50,000 map. Since I don't use
> 1:50,000 scale maps, I cannot comment on what constitutes
> a fair pricing at that scale. For me and I'd guess most
> walkers the minimum level of detail required is 1:25,000.
> If we do a price comparison for the 1:25,000 scale and
> take the Peak District as a randomly chosen example, we
> find that the price is 80 at Anquet and
> 99.95 at Memory Map. However, one can buy both 1:25,000
> paper OS maps of the area from Amazon for 11.18 total.
> Given that all of OS's base dataset is now digital, I
> do regard the electronic map to be extortionately
> priced versus the printed version of the same data.

Yes, the dataset may be digital, and you may be buying
digital versions of the dataset, but they're still digital
versions that have been extensively and expensively laid out
by expert cartographers. I assume you get more than just the
2 sheets for your 80-100 quid in the digital versions.

A

In hill country 1:50K is often preferable, especially
Scotland. No field boundaries to worry about and clear
contours.

I have most of Scotland at 1:25k, but have had to put them
in storage as I have only two rooms now, and I chose to
keep the 1:50k set and the Harvey's 1:50 is usable on the
bike as well.

Cannot wait to unpack them again, but out there, 1:50 is
best.

Richard Webb

"Boo" <boo@spam_me_no_spam.net> wrote in message
news:c2qckt$aa8$2@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> The free software movement makes the distinction between
> free as in "free beer" and free as in "free speech" and
> istm that this is applicable here as well : What many
> people want to do is, for instance, to illustrate a
> favourite walk on a website with extracts from OS maps, or
> print off their own copies in say A3 format for use during
> a walk. Both of these are prohibited by the OS even if
> you've paid for the digital maps by buying eg Fugawe.

Printing off maps for your personal use is allowed by both
the digital programs I use (Anquet and Tracklogs)
- I've checked the licence aggreement to confirm

>
> > Personally, given that the OS licence of the software
> > products available
is
> > a tiny fraction of the cost of the cost of the software
> > which gives huge added value as well I don't have a
> > problem with paying the equivalent of
a
> > coupe of tanks of petrol for mapping of the whole of the
> > South of GB
(most
> > of England) or the cost of a playstation game for my
> > locality covering
> > 1/16th of GB.
>
> I agree that the cost is not extortionate but you are not
> free to use the data as you wish once you have bought it.

AIUI you'rre free to use it as you wish personally but not
to distribute it (by eg publishing it on a web site)

Russ

"PJD" <pjd@trygonianospam.com> wrote in message
news:4050d26d$0$6549$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
> Thank you for that.
>
> I have never bought a 1:50,000 map. Since I don't use
> 1:50,000 scale maps,
I
> cannot comment on what constitutes a fair pricing at that
> scale. For me
and
> I'd guess most walkers the minimum level of detail
> required is 1:25,000.
If
> we do a price comparison for the 1:25,000 scale and take
> the Peak District as a randomly chosen example, we find
> that the price is £80 at Anquet and £99.95 at Memory Map.
> However, one can buy both 1:25,000 paper OS maps of the
> area from Amazon for £11.18 total. Given that all of OS's
> base dataset is now digital, I do regard the electronic
> map to be extortionately priced versus the printed version
> of the same data.

£50 from tracklogs - still not very cheap but you do get 3D
data, 3D route planning, 3D viewing and full GPS
interconnectivity for that, the cost of the OS licence to
the resellers is almost certainly less than the cost of the
paper map.

> As an aside, the Ordnance Survey has also been accused of
> restrictive practises, such as applying very onerous
> copyright and licensing restrictions to paper map users,
> software users and software companies.

No more onerous than any other paper based medium (eg
books), I can produce as many paper copies of my digital
mapping software as I wish for my personal use, I can
download routes produced from it to my GPS and distribute
those routes to my friends or even offer them for download
over the internet. Just about the only thing I can't do it
put the maps up on web sites or give them to my friends (ie
distribute them - not entirely unreasonable)

> The OS have a monopolistic position in the UK. Maybe
> (hopefully) there is some increasing competition, but it
> is still very limited at the moment. Some have argued that
> the gathering of geographic data is a natural monopoly. If
> so, there are two common models for such an organisation.
> The service can indeed be financed by the taxpayer with
> the resulting data
made
> available to all. Alternatively, it can be run as a
> commercial business
with
> its services and pricing controlled by an independent
> Regulator. One can argue the pros and cons of each model
> for users and for the economy as a whole. (You'll be
> pleased to know that I'm not going to!)

We'll just have to differ on that one, however you've done
me a favour and got me to go looking into the running of
theOS - it's still a govt. dept (which operares as a trading
fund) rather than an actual commercial business, it's been
run at a loss the last two years (so a regulator would
presumably allow it to increase prices to enable it to make
a profit) so barring providing you with your digital maps at
everyone else's expense which isn't going to happen under
any govt. in the forseeable future (it's not much of a vote
winner - I'm guessing most people would rather it was spent
on Education or Health) it's clearly not profiteering from
it's monopolistic position. I for one am pleased they defend
their copyrights as it means more people are forced to pay
rather than getting it (illegally) for free which means my
(and your) legal copy (digital and paper) is cheaper.

> A personal views: Before I buy OS digital maps, I'd want
> to see much lower pricing of the 1:25,000 scale versions.
> I'd also want to be sure that the licensing terms,
> software compatibility, use with software upgrades, etc.,
> were all clearly published and reasonable.

All bar the pricing, and that would seem to be coming down
very quickly, are already done. The OS are clearly moving in
the right direction.

> As for Freemap, I don't know how useful the concept will
> become, but am happy to wish the site owner all the best.

As I've repeated so do I but I have reservations as to how
useful the concept will become.

Russ

In a recent message <4050d26d$0$6549$cc9e4d1f@news-
text.dial.pipex.com>, PJD <pjd@trygonianospam.com> wrote.

[...]
>A personal views: Before I buy OS digital maps, I'd want to
>see much lower pricing of the 1:25,000 scale versions.
[...]

I couldn't agree more with this. Have a look at the way they
do things in France, see:

http://www.ign.fr/affiche_rubrique.a...1145&lng_id=FR

It's deeply, deeply shaming. What a third-rate organisation
the OS looks compared with the IGN.

Regards, Nick.

--
Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England
<hopton@dsl.pipex.com

In a recent message <4050d26d$0$6549$cc9e4d1f@news-
text.dial.pipex.com>, PJD <pjd@trygonianospam.com> wrote.

[...]
>A personal views: Before I buy OS digital maps, I'd want to
>see much lower pricing of the 1:25,000 scale versions.
[...]

I couldn't agree more with this. Have a look at the way they
do things in France, see:

http://www.ign.fr/affiche_rubrique.a...1145&lng_id=FR

It's deeply, deeply shaming. What a third-rate organisation
the OS looks compared with the IGN.

Regards, Nick.

--
Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England
<hopton@dsl.pipex.com

> Printing off maps for your personal use is allowed by both
> the digital programs I use (Anquet and Tracklogs)

That's true but AIUI only at A4 though ?

--
Boo

"Nick Hopton" <hopton@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:4HNUtABvxcUAFw94@local.mail...
> In a recent message <4050d26d$0$6549$cc9e4d1f@news-
> text.dial.pipex.com>, PJD <pjd@trygonianospam.com> wrote.
>
> [...]
> >A personal views: Before I buy OS digital maps, I'd want
> >to see much
lower
> >pricing of the 1:25,000 scale versions.
> [...]
>
> I couldn't agree more with this. Have a look at the way
> they do things in France, see:
>
> http://www.ign.fr/affiche_rubrique.asp?rbr_id=1145&l-
> ng_id=FR
>
> It's deeply, deeply shaming. What a third-rate
> organisation the OS looks compared with the IGN.
>
> Regards, Nick.

I'm not with you at all - 38 euro per map is about £25.84
(according to ww.ft.com) or 84p more expensive than a OS
1:25,000 scale map from tracklogs but with no 3D mapping
facility on the French map, can't see how the OS looks third
rate on that comparison or why it should be deeply deeply
shaming - perhaps you might expand?

Russ

In a recent message
<d205c.22719$Y%6.2186917@wards.force9.net>, Russ
<russellspamjunknothanks@tiscali.co.uk> wrote.

[...]
>> I couldn't agree more with this. Have a look at the way
>> they do things in France, see:
>>
>> http://www.ign.fr/affiche_rubrique.asp?rbr_id=1145&ln-
>> g_id=FR
>>
>> It's deeply, deeply shaming. What a third-rate
>> organisation the OS looks compared with the IGN.
>>
>> Regards, Nick.
>
>I'm not with you at all - 38 euro per map is about £25.84
>(according to ww.ft.com) or 84p more expensive than a OS
>1:25,000 scale map from tracklogs but with no 3D mapping
>facility on the French map, can't see how the OS looks
>third rate on that comparison or why it should be deeply
>deeply shaming - perhaps you might expand?
[...]

Yes. I didn't know about the Tracklogs mapping at 1:25,000
until you mentioned it. However, this said, I see that a
20km x 20km site-centred Tracklogs map costs about the same
as an IGN CD. The difference is that the Tracklogs CDs cover
an area of 400 square km and the IGN CDs cover an area of
about 3,000 square km.

The shaming aspect is that the IGN has a commitment to
providing a public service that seems to be entirely lacking
at the OS. Why isn't the OS producing its own CD-ROMs, for
goodness' sake?

BTW, it appears that the IGN digital maps do carry elevation
data, even though it appears that this data cannot be used
directly to produce 3-D views.

Regards, Nick.

--
Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England
<hopton@dsl.pipex.com

On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 11:31:40 +0000, Richard Bates
<mail.sent.here.gets.deleted@cuddle.clara.co.uk> wrote:

On 7 Mar 2004 02:00:34 -0800, in
<a859c046.0403070200.f28958d@posting.google.com>,
:nick@hogweed.org )(Nick) wrote: ) )>I mentioned some time
:ago on uk.rec.walking that I was thinking of )>developing a
:free online mapping service for walkers and off-road
>cyclists, showing all the footpaths and bridleways in a
:given area - )>on a more rough scale than OS maps but
:without the copyright issues. )>Well, I've been doing a
:fair bit of work on this in the last couple of )>months and
:a prototype is available at http://www.freemap.org.uk. )
Reminds me of autoroute before Microsoft bought it. Is the
:idea for )people to submit their own data to you based on
:their own local area?

If he's prepared to bung in the data, that's probably the
best route
--
Comm again, Mike.

On Sun, 7 Mar 2004 11:32:10 -0000, "Bryan Hall"
<bryan.hall99spam@ntlworld.com> wrote:

If you want an objective tester/reviewer leave a note here
:and I'll let you )have my e-mail address - this looks like
:it has potential, but I'm not sure )yet of where it's going
****************

OOOH !

--
Comm again, Mike.