FREEMAP: free mapping for walkers/cyclists + a couple of questions

Hello,

I mentioned some time ago on uk.rec.walking that I was
thinking of developing a free online mapping service for
walkers and off-road cyclists, showing all the footpaths
and bridleways in a given area - on a more rough scale than
OS maps but without the copyright issues. Well, I've been
doing a fair bit of work on this in the last couple of
months and a prototype is available at
http://www.freemap.org.uk. There is hardly any data at the
moment (just a small amount - around 8

quite advanced. Try going to the site (BTW, the user
interface isn't finished yet) and moving around with the
arrows, scaling the map, clicking on a feature (e.g. a
village, pub or hill) and selecting "Get Features" to list
the features in an area. There is also a distance
calculator: try dragging with the right mouse button.

I hope to expand it to include B and Bs and also a database
of suggested walks in a given area.

One question I would like to ask. The underlying code works
by storing features, path junctions and path/road junctions
in a database as grid references, then drawing the map by
"joining the dots" so to speak. Thus it is rougher than an
OS map but still of value when looking up what paths go
where in a given area. I presume it is not against OS
copyright to use grid references? Could anyone advise? If it
was I could always redo it to use latitude/longitude.

Thanks, Nick

On 7 Mar 2004 02:00:34 -0800, in
<a859c046.0403070200.f28958d@posting.google.com>, nick@hogweed.org
(Nick) wrote:

>I mentioned some time ago on uk.rec.walking that I was
>thinking of developing a free online mapping service for
>walkers and off-road cyclists, showing all the footpaths
>and bridleways in a given area - on a more rough scale than
>OS maps but without the copyright issues. Well, I've been
>doing a fair bit of work on this in the last couple of
>months and a prototype is available at
>http://www.freemap.org.uk.

Reminds me of autoroute before Microsoft bought it. Is the
idea for people to submit their own data to you based on
their own local area?

--
DISCLAIMER: My email box is private property.Email which
appears in my inbox is mine to do what I like with. Anything
which is sent to me (whether intended or not) may, if I so
desire, form a legal and binding contract.

Nick, nice to see you developing beyond Mapmaker - I can
remember when you rolled that out and the idea was a clever
one, at the right sort of level.

To answer your questions - I don't think OS "own" the Grid
Ref concept, it's widely used across the world, and I would
have thought any copyright that may have existed in the past
would have been on patent, rather than any other sort of
commercial ownership. No doubt others on this NG will
correct me if I 'm wrong.

I think the main issues you'll have with this:
1. The OS spent a lot of money on initial population of the
geographic data base -have you thought how you plan to
handle this?
2. There's already alternatives to this approach
(Mulitmap/Autoroute etc) that have a similar idea, but
not necessarily the same level of walker specific detail.
What makes your approach different?

Now if this a 3d mapper ............ ;-)

If you want an objective tester/reviewer leave a note here
and I'll let you have my e-mail address - this looks like it
has potential, but I'm not sure yet of where it's going

Well done anyway - now get out there walking!

Bryan Durzet

"Nick" <nick@hogweed.org> wrote in message
news:a859c046.0403070200.f28958d@posting.google.com...
> Hello,
>
> I mentioned some time ago on uk.rec.walking that I was
> thinking of developing a free online mapping service for
> walkers and off-road cyclists, showing all the footpaths
> and bridleways in a given area - on a more rough scale
> than OS maps but without the copyright issues. Well, I've
> been doing a fair bit of work on this in the last couple
> of months and a prototype is available at
> http://www.freemap.org.uk. There is hardly any data at the
> moment (just a small amount - around 8

> quite advanced. Try going to the site (BTW, the user
> interface isn't finished yet) and moving around with the
> arrows, scaling the map, clicking on a feature (e.g. a
> village, pub or hill) and selecting "Get Features" to list
> the features in an area. There is also a distance
> calculator: try dragging with the right mouse button.
>
> I hope to expand it to include B and Bs and also a
> database of suggested walks in a given area.
>
> One question I would like to ask. The underlying code
> works by storing features, path junctions and path/road
> junctions in a database as grid references, then drawing
> the map by "joining the dots" so to speak. Thus it is
> rougher than an OS map but still of value when looking up
> what paths go where in a given area. I presume it is not
> against OS copyright to use grid references? Could anyone
> advise? If it was I could always redo it to use
> latitude/longitude.
>
> Thanks, Nick

Nick wrote on 7 Mar 2004 02:00:34 -0800....
> One question I would like to ask. The underlying code
> works by storing features, path junctions and path/road
> junctions in a database as grid references, then drawing
> the map by "joining the dots" so to speak. Thus it is
> rougher than an OS map but still of value when looking up
> what paths go where in a given area. I presume it is not
> against OS copyright to use grid references? Could anyone
> advise? If it was I could always redo it to use
> latitude/longitude.

This was discussed recently in u.r.w. See
http://tinyurl.com/2djtj

Did your underlying data come from an OS map? Are you then
using it to recreate something that derives its form from
the form of the OS map?

--
Tim Jackson news@winterbourne.freeserve.invalid (Change
'.invalid' to '.co.uk' to reply direct) Absurd patents:
visit http://www.patent.freeserve.co.uk

Nick wrote on 7 Mar 2004 02:00:34 -0800....
> One question I would like to ask. The underlying code
> works by storing features, path junctions and path/road
> junctions in a database as grid references, then drawing
> the map by "joining the dots" so to speak. Thus it is
> rougher than an OS map but still of value when looking up
> what paths go where in a given area. I presume it is not
> against OS copyright to use grid references? Could anyone
> advise? If it was I could always redo it to use
> latitude/longitude.

This was discussed recently in u.r.w. See
http://tinyurl.com/2djtj

Did your underlying data come from an OS map? Are you then
using it to recreate something that derives its form
indirectly from the form of the OS map?

--
Tim Jackson news@winterbourne.freeserve.invalid (Change
'.invalid' to '.co.uk' to reply direct) Absurd patents:
visit http://www.patent.freeserve.co.uk

On 7 Mar 2004 02:00:34 -0800, Nick <nick@hogweed.org> wrote:

> references, then drawing the map by "joining the dots" so
> to speak. Thus it is rougher than an OS map but still of
> value when looking up what paths go where in a given
> area. I presume it is not against OS copyright to use
> grid references? Could anyone advise? If it was I could
> always redo it to use latitude/longitude.

I can't imagine how it could be copyright - OS grid is just
a transverse mercator projection. I don't think OS can claim
a copyright on transverse mercator, and you could just use
teh same origin and false origin as OS, quite by
coincidence.

Conceivably they might claim something about teh landranger
letters, but if you're programming it's probably easier not
to use teh letters anyway, and just stick to six digit
eastings & northings.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

Tim Jackson <news@winterbourne.freeserve.invalid> wrote in message news:<MPG.1ab5321bf04af2a098a1ac@news.freeserve.net>...
> Nick wrote on 7 Mar 2004 02:00:34 -0800....
> > One question I would like to ask. The underlying code
> > works by storing features, path junctions and path/road
> > junctions in a database as grid references, then drawing
> > the map by "joining the dots" so to speak. Thus it is
> > rougher than an OS map but still of value when looking
> > up what paths go where in a given area. I presume it is
> > not against OS copyright to use grid references? Could
> > anyone advise? If it was I could always redo it to use
> > latitude/longitude.
>
> This was discussed recently in u.r.w. See
> http://tinyurl.com/2djtj
>
> Did your underlying data come from an OS map? Are you then
> using it to recreate something that derives its form
> indirectly from the form of the OS map?

Looked at the thread. From my understanding - it's OK to use
grid refs, but I have to gather them from my own GPS survey,
but not from an OS map -even *if* one's own version is much
simpler than the OS map (and thus scarcely a copy). Glad to
hear I can still use grid refs though, I'll just do some GPS
surveys every time I go out walking (probably 2 times a week
come the "proper" spring), convert the lat and long to grid
refs and upload.

In the meantime if anyone would like to contribute to this
project I'd be glad of some GPS-derived data.

Thanks, Nick nick@hogweed.org

"Bryan Hall" <bryan.hall99spam@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<SLD2c.852$7g5.349@newsfe3-win.server.ntli.net>...
> Nick, nice to see you developing beyond Mapmaker - I can
> remember when you rolled that out and the idea was a
> clever one, at the right sort of level.
>
> To answer your questions - I don't think OS "own" the Grid
> Ref concept, it's widely used across the world, and I
> would have thought any copyright that may have existed in
> the past would have been on patent, rather than any other
> sort of commercial ownership. No doubt others on this NG
> will correct me if I 'm wrong.
>
> I think the main issues you'll have with this:
> 1. The OS spent a lot of money on initial population of
> the geographic data base -have you thought how you plan
> to handle this?

Seems I can't derive data - even grid refs of path junctions
etc - from OS maps (seen Tim Jackson's message). However if
I (and others interested in the project) do GPS surveys it
may be the database gets built up relatively quickly.

> 2. There's already alternatives to this approach
> (Mulitmap/Autoroute etc) that have a similar idea, but
> not necessarily the same level of walker specific
> detail.

Those approaches are proprietary with licencing restrictions
on use (no reproduction etc). Also as you said, less
walker/cyclist specific detail. Freemap-derived maps and
info would be free to use without restrictions, in the
spirit of the GPL for those into "free software"
development. The whole Mapmaker/Freemap concepts have their
roots around 3 or 4 years ago when I discovered that the OS
didn't allow even small sections of scanned-in maps to
illustrate walks. Also Freemap is aimed to be designed from
the ground up for the walker/cyclist (B+Bs, walks database,
focus on scenery etc)

Nick

On 7 Mar 2004 02:00:34 -0800, nick@hogweed.org (Nick) wrote:

>I mentioned some time ago on uk.rec.walking that I was
>thinking of developing a free online mapping service for
>walkers and off-road cyclists, showing all the footpaths
>and bridleways in a given area - on a more rough scale than
>OS maps but without the copyright issues. Well, I've been
>doing a fair bit of work on this in the last couple of
>months and a prototype is available at
>http://www.freemap.org.uk. There is hardly any data at the
>moment (just a small amount - around 8

>quite advanced. Try going to the site (BTW, the user
>interface isn't finished yet) and moving around with the
>arrows, scaling the map, clicking on a feature (e.g. a
>village, pub or hill) and selecting "Get Features" to list
>the features in an area. There is also a distance
>calculator: try dragging with the right mouse button.

I can't see any mapping at all, just a pale yellow circle
labelled Fernhurst. I have tried clicking the pan and
zoom controls.

I'm using Mozilla Firefox 0.8.

In message <slrnc4n3hl.1ro.ian@phlegethon.smithnet>, Ian
Smith <ian@astounding.org.uk> writes
>On 7 Mar 2004 02:00:34 -0800, Nick <nick@hogweed.org>
>wrote:
>
>> references, then drawing the map by "joining the dots"
>> so to speak. Thus it is rougher than an OS map but still
>> of value when looking up what paths go where in a given
>> area. I presume it is not against OS copyright to use
>> grid references? Could anyone advise? If it was I could
>> always redo it to use latitude/longitude.
>
>I can't imagine how it could be copyright - OS grid is just
>a transverse mercator projection. I don't think OS can
>claim a copyright on transverse mercator, and you could
>just use teh same origin and false origin as OS, quite by
>coincidence.
>
>Conceivably they might claim something about teh landranger
>letters, but if you're programming it's probably easier not
>to use teh letters anyway, and just stick to six digit
>eastings & northings.

They've been around so long they must be out of copyright
even if they were ever in.

--
Michael Farthing cyclades Software House

Stuart Baldwin wrote:
> On 7 Mar 2004 02:00:34 -0800, nick@hogweed.org
> (Nick) wrote:
>
>
>>I mentioned some time ago on uk.rec.walking that I was
>>thinking of developing a free online mapping service for
>>walkers and off-road cyclists, showing all the footpaths
>>and bridleways in a given area - on a more rough scale
>>than OS maps but without the copyright issues. Well, I've
>>been doing a fair bit of work on this in the last couple
>>of months and a prototype is available at
>>http://www.freemap.org.uk. There is hardly any data at the
>>moment (just a small amount - around 8

>>quite advanced. Try going to the site (BTW, the user
>>interface isn't finished yet) and moving around with the
>>arrows, scaling the map, clicking on a feature (e.g. a
>>village, pub or hill) and selecting "Get Features" to list
>>the features in an area. There is also a distance
>>calculator: try dragging with the right mouse button.
>
>
> I can't see any mapping at all, just a pale yellow circle
> labelled Fernhurst. I have tried clicking the pan and zoom
> controls.
>
> I'm using Mozilla Firefox 0.8.

It *might* not be too difficult to do your own surveys if
you have the right gear, as there will be a fair few Bench
Mark locations which will have the details of location
written on them, which you can base your survey around.

Personally I think you will struggle as the ordnance survey
has a very high level of sophistication using arial
photographs and the like.

Good Luck all the same

"Bryan Hall" <bryan.hall99spam@ntlworld.com> wrote in
message news:SLD2c.852$7g5.349@newsfe3-
win.server.ntli.net... snip
> Well done anyway - now get out there walking!

Agreed and cycling!

in message <a859c046.0403070200.f28958d@posting.google.com>, Nick
('nick@hogweed.org') wrote:

> One question I would like to ask. The underlying code
> works by storing features, path junctions and path/road
> junctions in a database as grid references, then drawing
> the map by "joining the dots" so to speak. Thus it is
> rougher than an OS map but still of value when looking up
> what paths go where in a given area. I presume it is not
> against OS copyright to use grid references? Could anyone
> advise? If it was I could always redo it to use
> latitude/longitude.

I have been rather desultorily working on something similar
for a while, without actually geeting anything as nearly
finished as you have. Is your code available to download?
Would you be interested in swapping ideas?

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke)
http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

See one nuclear war, you've seen them all.

Stuart Baldwin <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<qq8n40drillh1m269id2ac0br6ht7de0a6@4ax.com>...

> I can't see any mapping at all, just a pale yellow circle
> labelled Fernhurst. I have tried clicking the pan and zoom
> controls.
>

Try it now - there are a few roads and paths, one pub and
one hill. Diagrammatic only to avoid annoying the OS :-)
Will probably get out to that area in 2 weekends time to
start putting some "real" data in.

Nick

David Waters <d.waters@student.umist.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<c2gf7g$f36$1@godfrey.mcc.ac.uk>...

>
> It *might* not be too difficult to do your own surveys if
> you have the right gear, as there will be a fair few Bench
> Mark locations which will have the details of location
> written on them, which you can base your survey around.
>
> Personally I think you will struggle as the ordnance
> survey has a very high level of sophistication using arial
> photographs and the like.
>
> Good Luck all the same

I don't intend to make Freemap as accurate as OS - that
would be infeasible - but nonetheless reasonably accurate
maps could be developed by just walking the paths and
marking GPS waypoints at key locations (path junctions,
prominent bends, summits, pubs :-), villages etc).

While we're at it I'd like to extend an open invitation to
those of you with a GPS who are interested in the project to
get surveying your area next time you're out. As I said, I'm
not looking for an ultra-accurate survey, just the grid
locations or lat/long of key path/landscape features/pubs
etc. The Freemap site will eventually have an automatic
upload to the database for contributions but for now, email
me on nick@hogweed.org next time you're out :-)

I will also need "route types" (i.e. whether it's a
footpath, bridleway, byway, road, permissive track etc) for
the database as each is coloured differently.

Thanks, Nick