The US..a poor international citizen..again. - Page 4

This is the American/British view of the world and, in my opinion, is being proved to be wrong as events unfold.
Nationalities have existed for millenia and throughout history and there's a reason for that. We were never programed biologically to live together in the sense of whole countries having no ethnic majority as is the case in America (with Europe apparently copying the trend).
Look at the most nationalistic states throughout history and you don't find facist states as the U.S. claims. On the contrary, Sparta was the strongest military state we probably know of yet it was highly nationalistic and even racially exclusive towards non-Greeks of the period. Yet, Sparta didn't invade other countries (as the U.S. does) and had strict codes regarding combat ethics (they allowed their enemies to run away). Neither was there any crime-filled streets in Sparta and, in fact, there wasn't hardly any crime at all.
The U.S. has been a global power for little over 100 years and time will tell how long this status will continue before possibly China overtakes the U.S. economically and militarily. That would make the U.S. a historical blip as later history unfolds, although I won't deny the U.S. has made a solid mark in the context of technology.
Let's bear in mind the Romans were the numero uno superpower not for 100 years but about 600 years! And definitely, in my view, the Greeks were more socially and militarily advanced than the modern U.S.A. if you take them in their own historical context (by comparison). The U.S. borrowed democracy, law and arts from these ancient European superpowers but it wasn't the U.S. that invented democracy.
Multicultural, multiethnic societies didn't produce democracy but democracy arose from more nationalistic states so far as I can gather.
So, I take the opposite view basically and believe multiculturalism will inevitably lead to the loss of social/political stability and freedom as Europeans gradually lose their own cultural histories and identities. The last time the European continent went multicultural was around 300 A.D. and the whole process led to the fragmentation of Empire and the onset of religion and fragmented European States - stuck in the dark ages for hundreds of years.

There is an interesting line from Plato who had much to say about multiculturalism:
"When a person is unhealthy, it takes very little to upset him and make him ill; there may even be an internal cause for disorder. The same is true of an unhealthy society. It will fall into sickness and dissension at the slightest external provocation." (Plato)
This is why Europe now fears free speech against religion could give rise to protests and mass instability which is hardly a solid base for society to advance in my book. Here in the U.K. we've had theatres closed down to avoid upsetting fundamentalist Christians (upset over the Jerry Springer production) as well as mass protest over those European cartoons.
As for the so-called racial harmony multiculturalism has supposed to have produced, the last I heard hot-cross buns have been banned from some schools. In all honesty, it seems to me that a society that is so afraid of the slightest offence can't be what we might call stable and harmonious.

I do not think anyone has ever made the claim that America invented democracy. It is taught in our schools that we basically copied Englands system.
There were many strong nationalistc "states" that were very "fascist" [as you use it} in history. Actually the word fascist in not a term with real meaning today. It lost it's real meaning after 1945. It is used mainly by the liberals to define anything they do not like. The word is really almost "meaningless." It is a smear word.

But I disagree with you stating that multicultural countries leads to instability. America is a prime example. This country was built by Italians, Greeks, Irish, Germans, Great Britainers [lol], and Scandanavians. We even had a French guy that sometimes contributed. The Spanish {Mexican} built our southwest.
I forgot ..Chinese, Koreans, Malaysians, ...... You get the picture.

And America has done OK. Not perfect, but OK. When you compare it to the Germans who seemed to desire no multiculturealism and went about purging itself in a very distasteful way , America does not look so bad.

If we were to be eliminate multiculturalism, what would America be ???? We are as diverse a country as Europe is as a whole. Matter of fact, an argument may be made that America has more seperate cultures then Europe does as a whole.

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"Since we started [selling the Livestrong wristbands], we've sold 75 million of these bracelets," said Armstrong. "What's different this year, is that anybody who buys a bracelet during the Tour, all the money stays here. I think it's important for people to understand that the money they spend - 1 Euro - is not going to Texas or the United States, it stays in France."

No problem.

I genuinely like Americans - 99.9% of Americans are decent friendly people.

It's the current administration I oppose and it's policies.

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.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it" - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

In mitigation - have you ever been to Germany?
They have hundreds of thousands of foreign nationals living there.

America is amelting pot though for sure - I reckon your country would have as wide a spread of foreign nationals as Europe.
(we've 450m people in Europe).

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.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it" - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

I realize there are many countries that can be considered melting pots. But I was trying to point out that multiculturalism is not a reason for instability. Diversity can be a good thing IF there is a blending of cultures.

If I was to immigrate, I would have to think long and hard before I would consider Germany.... I know everyone will be outraged when this is posted defending Germany, but just think about it..... Do you really want to be a foreign national when the economy has a downturn?

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"Since we started [selling the Livestrong wristbands], we've sold 75 million of these bracelets," said Armstrong. "What's different this year, is that anybody who buys a bracelet during the Tour, all the money stays here. I think it's important for people to understand that the money they spend - 1 Euro - is not going to Texas or the United States, it stays in France."

The us invaded vietnam after falsely claiming that two of their ships were attacked in the Gulf of Tonkin.
I didn't refer to the genocide of Native Americans...you did.That genocide was carried out by the us army under orders from the us government.
Britain could not have sent "their worst" to the usa in preference to australia as australia was not invaded by the british until 1788,by which time the us had declared independence.
Get
your facts straight!

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Drink!Feck!Arrse!Girls!

The US had advisers and troops in VietNam years before the Gulf incident. I should know, my father and uncle were there before the gulf incident. . The gulf incident increased the US involvement and gave Johnson unlimited support for increased troops. But ground troops were there years before that. And the word "invasion" is not correct.
We were there in support of South Vietnam.... And to protect American {British too} oil interest.
There is a reason we get involved in other countries affairs. Usually the country has sold itself to us. And when they do that, they lose control of what they sold.
America has every right to protect it's investment in other countries.. Other countries open their doors to us because of the resources and technology that we have. We have the resources available to us because of the size of the US. And to other countries, we also are a market for their goods.
As far as human rights go , we have a excellent track record. It's easy to sit back and complain about America's human rights record when you are from a country that is not involved internationally enough to matter.

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"Since we started [selling the Livestrong wristbands], we've sold 75 million of these bracelets," said Armstrong. "What's different this year, is that anybody who buys a bracelet during the Tour, all the money stays here. I think it's important for people to understand that the money they spend - 1 Euro - is not going to Texas or the United States, it stays in France."

England was a great empire until the early 1900's, no Too bad Blair didn't say "no" to the iraq, premeditated attack by the usa coalition. As it is apparent now, human rights issues's were only raised as a precursor as a 2nd or 3rd choice justification. Now Bush is in big trouble, it would seem, for going into this endeavour w/o enough force to finish the job &, more importantly, a valid reason in the 1st place.

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I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
George Carlin
US comedian and actor (1937 - )

Ancient philosophers had something to say about multiculturalism and it seems they knew a lot about applied political sciences.
Where you have a multicultural social structure, you essentially introduce not only diversity but also conflict into the arena so rather than a situation whereby one country goes to war against another, you may wind up with a country going to war against itself. O.K. maybe not war but certainly internal tensions.
Usually, multicultural societies plod along O.K. so long as the economy remains strong and no real pressure is applied against the system. However, as soon as the economy takes a turn for the worse, the cracks often begin to show. People start blaming one another. Take the case of Germany: Didn't Germans blame Jews for economic hardship in the thirties? Isn't it also the case that black people within the U.S. haven't enjoyed the same rights or social prosperity as whites in the U.S. for decades?
The best example of a multicultural society I can think of in historical terms (close to the U.S. model) is Carthage, which used to include parts of Spain and Africa. Hannibal's army was made up of Africans, Spaniards, Italians, Dacians - all speaking so many languages communication was difficult in the army. However, what's interesting is historians concluded Hannibal inevitably failed to defeat the Romans (during Hannibal's invasion of Italy) due to the far greater coherence of the Roman army of that period.
It was well known to Greek commanders back in those times that they could invade and defeat more multiethnic societies by exploiting their social divisions which is basically how Britain was conquered. Caesar divided and ruled the ancient Brits by forming alliances with one tribe at the expense of another, causing other tribes to defect e.t.c. That's where the saying, "Divide and rule" comes from.
The same holds for economies as well in my opinion. I'm willing to bet that China will inevitably overtake Europe economically and militarily over the next couple of decades and that China will emerge with a more harmonious social structure without its economy needing to depend on mass immigration. China already has millions of educated Chinese within the country who can be employed whereas Europe will have to contend with social division, religious and ethnic tensions and maybe even a return of the old divisions between European countries themselves.
Of course this is my opinion based on history as I see it. Time will tell if I'm right about China but we'll have to see.

I agree. The problem is immigration and blending of cultures isn't what multiculturalism stands for. Multiculturalism believes there should be no ethnic majority within a country or any set limit on immigration. It suggests countries such as Italy or Spain would be more prosperous if they adopt a U.S. model which would possibly make Spaniards or Italians a minority group in their own countries in decades to come. Politicians tell us this diversity system works better and my position is I dispute that claim based on what I read or actual studies that have challenged such a view.
I could also point out that the U.S. lost its nuclear secrets to China recently since China was able to plant Chinese nationals within the U.S. departments and pick up sensitive information to forward back to the Chinese government. This is why China accused the U.S. of bombing its embassy in Belgrade not too long ago in retaliation. Now, ask yourself whether the Chinese would ever allow American workers to be employed in a nuclear research department or turn over port security to the Saudis - a decison which shocked many Americans too. The problem with the U.S., to be honest, is it seeks security by attacking countries outside of its borders but the cracks are within. This is how I see it.

"Beijing's embassy was also hit at a time of heightening Sino-American tensions, fuelled in part by belated intelligence claims that a Chinese spy obtained US nuclear secrets. China is in the final throes of applying for membership of the World Trade Organisation, despite concerted Washington criticism in recent months over threats to Taiwan, the jailing of political dissidents and a widening trade gap (China recently surpassed Japan as holding the biggest surplus with the US)."

I agree with some of the your assessment of the US. And you cleared up for me what multiculturalism means. Here in the states we have problems with wanting to be politically correct. To me, politically correctness is a weakness that is exploited by other countries. China only got a small insight to the nuclear program of the US. But it was too much.
There are certain individuals in this country who have guilt over some of the past wrongs of the US. And politicians exploit that guilt. As a country we should learn from the past wrongs, but we need to move on. I live in a diverse city. And I have a position in life that gets to interact with all the different types of diversity. I have watched over the past few years and I notice that each diverse group does not interact with the others. In truth, the American caucasians are the only group that does interact with all groups. And that is because they control many things and the diverse groups need to interact. America is not on the same page anymore.
The only thing that seems to bring the groups together is business interaction. The groups have seperate religions, seperate neighborhoods, seperate meeting places, and even seperate sports programs. I hate to say it, but the only time these groups get along is when there is a business deal or drug use. The drug addicts get along just fine.

My daughter has returned from Copenhagen. She says Europeans tend to be liberal until they are forced to deal with a real problem. She mentioned that there has been a real shift of attitudes lately in Copenhagen concerning immigration. I am not sure what she meant by that.

I am the resident Republican on this forum I think. My attitude about "changing the world or making the world a better place" is simple. Give everyone a job and he will be happy. The market place has a way of working out the bumps between people. I use to argue this with a humanities professor of mine back in the 70's. Then in the last 15 years we got to watch this simple philosophy in action. He agrees partly with me now....

__________________
"Since we started [selling the Livestrong wristbands], we've sold 75 million of these bracelets," said Armstrong. "What's different this year, is that anybody who buys a bracelet during the Tour, all the money stays here. I think it's important for people to understand that the money they spend - 1 Euro - is not going to Texas or the United States, it stays in France."

You're wrong on a number of issues.

Invasion is a correct term.
Your country weren't invited - your country acted unilaterally and invaded South Vietnam.
As did the USSR.
But no one here is attempting to defend the USSR : but you're attempting to defend what was a unilateral invasion by your country.





I would dispute this.

Let's look at the past 60 years.
Korea didn't sell itself to your country.
Nor did Vietnam.
Grenada may well have.

I don't believe that Iraq sold itself to your country.


I don't know what this sentence refers to.


Just to give you an anecdote : several of your multinational companies lobbied our goverment because they wanted to create businesses here.

Obviously some other countries lobby US companies for business : but here at least it's the reverse.



Every country matters internationally.
Whether you wish to acknowledge that or not - is another thing.


As regards your country's human rights record - any country or any part of any country that legislates for capital punishment has no right to consider itself as having an excellent human rights record, in my opinion.

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.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it" - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

An "invasion" is where you go where you are not wanted. South Viet-Nam allowed advisors of the US into Viet-nam years before ground troops were placed there. The aggressor North Viet-Nam was attempting a coup of the Republic of Viet-Nam [South} and we then escalated troops in an attempt to keep the communist North in the North.China and Russia aided the North.
"Invasion " is not a correct term.

The Korean situation was caused by the North Koreans attacking Seoul. We had no troops there. War was declared by the North on the south.

American involvemnt began when Truman sent help to evacuate Americans.
Shortly after that Truman ordered the air and sea defenses to protect the waters south of the 38th parallel.
THEN >>>>>>> The UN Security Council passes a resolution calling for member nations to give military aid to South Korea. And the reason this was a UN situation was because the UN had set the government up in the south after the 1945 agreement between the Soviet Union and the USA.


During this time Seoul fell to the North. No ground troops of the US were involved yet. The only combat at this point was a small air battle.

Remember the troops were there on the UN's advice. It was not just the troops of the US, but it was a UN led involvement. Troops were there from GB and the Phillipines. This was more of a battle against the expansion of Russia and China. The Chinese had many of the troops in the trenches. I think Australia also had many troops there. I may be wrong on that.

The US saw Communism expansion as a problem. The Soviets and Chinese were expasion minded. Europe today looks differently today then it did back in the 60's and earlier. If the US and GB did not have a problem with communism expansion, Europe may have different boundaries at this time.

England and the US get a lot of flack for being aggressors. That is the advantage of being Wales, Scotland, and other small countries. You nothing really had nothing to offer against the expansion of Russia and China of the 50's and the 60's. I am sure though that some small countries did offer the few troops that they did have.


Again , the word "invasion " is being mis-used.

The death penalty is not available in very many places in the US.

__________________
"Since we started [selling the Livestrong wristbands], we've sold 75 million of these bracelets," said Armstrong. "What's different this year, is that anybody who buys a bracelet during the Tour, all the money stays here. I think it's important for people to understand that the money they spend - 1 Euro - is not going to Texas or the United States, it stays in France."