Mel Gibsons True Colors? - Page 4

My perspective is this: I have no doubt the Bush Administration is filled with corrupt, greedy, immoral and hypocritical individuals who used 9/11 for their own ends. I opposed the Iraq War at the time it happened and I still say it was a mistake to invade Iraq.
However, we're getting to a point where choices have to be made. We can either choose to side with the U.S. in the hope elections will bring about a wiser Administration in the future, or make excuses for Radical Islam as Darkboong seems to do (in my opinion, not necessarily everybody else's).
Of course, there 's a lot wrong with America that could change for the better. I always loathed the death penalty, excessive prudishness, over-emphasis on religion and other irritating pitfalls). Even so, compared to China and the USSR, America does have some positive qualities as well and probably did prevent Europe being dominated by Stalinistic communism this century.
So, it boils down to a personal choice. Either Bush or the Mullahs in Iran - who have been stirring up trouble around Israel's borders.
I see it this way: despite the obvious pitfalls the U.S. has brought I.T., Hollywood, space travel, fashion, good music and a basic belief in democratic freedoms to the west. The Islamic World, however, has stagnated for several centuries and seems to be offering some kind of blind, fanatical belief in Allah (whose existence I seriously doubt).

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

"but mostly being Hitlers willing executioners, maybe the survivors of the holocaust could have moved back to their european homes."

I'm not Jewish but I can see where Jews are coming from. if I were Jewish, I would really hate to have to rely on sanctuary in France. I've been to France many times and can say the French are a pleasant, hospitable people. However, France has had an influx of thousands of Moslems over the last few decades. Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying all Moslems are bad but I do know many many Jews left France due to intolerance of French Moslems.
Darkboong will evidently rant, call me a liar and stamp his feet in indignation but I read up on France and the incidents of synagogue attacks and attacks on butchers' shops are well documented.
Let's look at this logically: Jews live in Israel and this upsets radical Moslems. Then Moslems are allowed to migrate to Europe and enjoy our welfare and economic benefits and in return for that, they decide they don't want Jews in France either.
Are we going to spend the rest of our lives giving in to this hatred?

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

IT..Windows XP,which wont recognise either a microsoft keyboard or mouse on my computer?
Fashion...what?
Space travel...Werner von Braun?
Good music...some of it.where is their Beethoven or Mozart?
A basic belief in democratic freedoms?...Guantanomo Bay,imprisonment without trial,kidnapping,torture,rendition,support of most of the countries on Amnesty's ****list(SaudiArabia,Iran,Iraq,Khazakistan,Chile,Nicaragua,Egypt,Israel,Pakistan,
the Taliban...the list goes on forever).
The us didn't invent democracy and throughout their history they haven't had a real lot of it.I can remember the Civil Rights marches in the 60's...just to get the right to sit at the front of the bus!
The us has done more to squash democracy than they ever did to promote it.
Democracy.It's a feel-good word,like "motherhood'.Everyone believes in it and everone has a different definition of it and the american definition of democracy is "What is best for the majority shareholders of us-based multi-national companies."
The us is the the most ruthless,anti-democratic and violent regime that ever existed in human history.

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Drink!Feck!Arrse!Girls!

Yes, you make some interesting points, especially about Russia.
First of all, my theory is that possibly without Stalin (who was a monster), the U.S. may not have won the war against Hitler. That's because it takes a bear to kill a wolf and Stalin understood little of negotiation and Queensbury rules. Once Hitler invaded Russia, Stalin eventually pulled himself together and waged holy hell against the Nazis.
As you said, the Red Army did rescue thousands of Jews from concentration camps. Sadly, any captured Slavs were later sent to Gulags as Stalin considered them traitors - (they had allowed themselves to be captured).
At any rate, I think the penny dropped once the allies actually saw the concentration camps. Probably it was the full extent of the crimes that convinced the U.S. to support a re-establishment of Israel as a free nation state.
The cold, harsh reality, I think, is that the ghosts of Nazi Germany are once again surfacing in Europe and especially the U.K. and France. This is a dangerous path to take and what you notice is that the anti-semitism is hiding amongst the so-called peace movement - the people who march shoulder to shoulder with radical Islamics, claiming Jews stole land in a place called Palestine (that never features on any ancient map in the sense these people have been led to believe).
Poor education is a factor. Just try asking one of these peace protesters some basic Middle East history and they seem clueless.
Clearly these people have a chip on their shoulder and have been indoctrinated, just like the everyday German people who assumed Hitler was right and simply trusted what they were told. They finally had to drag these folks round the concentration camps when the war was over so they could take a good luck at what all the political hatred had led to.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Hmmm, don't you think that's going a bit far? An American would simply reply, "What about the British?"
I agree American democracy falls short of the Greek ideal and there have been some rocky times when democracy was under threat. But can you really compare the U.S. with, say, Rome? I mean, when the Romans went to war, there was little messing. If Rome had felt threatened by Iran, the usual tactic was to push the enemy into war and then slaughter entire populations, selling women and children into slavery.
Look how Rome finally dealt with Jerusalem and also Greece.
Yes, Guantanamo is bad. Even so, if you read Gulag Archipelago you will find stories of political prisoners living in tiny cells on bread and water and working all day with pick-axes.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

"The us is the the most ruthless,anti-democratic and violent regime that ever existed in human history."

Phew! That's a harsh comment. The American posters will definitely get upset by that one.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

"Democracy.It's a feel-good word,like "motherhood'.Everyone believes in it and everone has a different definition of it and the american definition of democracy is 'What is best for the majority shareholders of us-based multi-national companies'."

I agree, but it's the same here too. Blair speaks about democracy and freedom but it's all rhetoric. Still, that doesn't mean there aren't everyday Americans who believe in genuine democracy and can see the politicians are talking baloney.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Stalin was without question a monster.Like most world leaders he was a psychopath also.He certainly didn't send the Red Army into europe to liberate the jews.
Neither did anyone else.It was an accidental by-product of a struggle for domination of the world.
What were they thinking...Hmmm,the jews have suffered appallingly because of anti-semitism.Let's give them a country of their own..
Now where is a good place to put them?
How about...as far away from europe and the us as possible...
Hey...there's only a bunch of arabs in palestine who don't count for anything anyway and who cares how long they've lived there.The jews think it's theirs because their invisible friend said so 2000 years ago so let's dump them there and forget them.
Bugger...we dumped them in the non-oil-producing part of the middle east.Can't win'em all...bomb everything!

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Drink!Feck!Arrse!Girls!

To support that hypothesis you would have to produce evidence of racially motivated attacks on Jews, and who comitted them. You haven't produced any kind of evidence of that whatsoever. For all we know the majority of attack on Jews in France could be committed by you in a vain attempt to justify the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinians.

The fact of the matter is that the Muslims of France suffer discrimination too, perhaps the Mossad agents are dancing in the streets outside the hostels full of Muslims being burnt alive.

That is not logical Crappy because it is a lie. What upsets *some* Muslims (and me) is that they have murdered and ethnically cleansed 2 million people, simply because they were Gentiles. You have stated that you believe the Jews are right to kill people and destroy the homes of Gentiles. The main justifications for Ethnic Cleansing that you have presented so far are :

• Jews were Ethnically Cleansed in Germany over sixty years ago.
• Jews have a divine right to the land.
• Jew were Ethnically Cleansed by Romans over a thousand years ago.

They contribute to Crappy, although you flatly deny that in the face of overwhelming evidence against you. In fact you are so bigotted that you are unable to accept any critcism or offer any condemnation of violence committed against Muslims.

You are the one giving in to hatred Crappy, and you don't have any practical solution for it. Your "final solution" is more violence and oppression, that isn't going to reduce the amount of violence and oppression in the world... Duh.

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Free Beer !

It's far more complicated than that. Any archeologist would tell you Israel is a land that's steeped in Jewish history. I have an interest in archeology and history myself.
Not only do we find huge chunks of Jewish history in the Roman period but then you have the first and second temple periods way before that.
Asking Jews to forget they ever had a state is a bit like asking Greeks to move out of Athens or the Aboriginees to abandon Australia.
As for the idea Jews haven't benefited Europe or the U.S. I disagree. Seeing as I have certain communist/socialist leanings I still see Lenin and Trotsky as historical figures who turned Russia from a peasant society into a superpower. I also thank my lucky stars for Brian Epstein, Einstein and even the Weider brothers.
The trouble is these people who march in London don't know their history. Their view on Israel has simply been spoon-fed to them by pro-Palestinian groups that settled and became established in London. Myself, I have my own brain and my own take on history. I know what these movements have been teaching is wrong.
I met many of these pro-Palestinian militants in my time and debated with them. I confess I tied them up in knots many times. Most of them can't date the arrival of Islam or the invasions of Babylon e.t.c. They didn't even know when and how Christianity appeared or when Judaism was practised. That I find quite worrying.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

I presented plenty of evidence I don't think you recall. I posted information on the killing of a Dutch artist in Holland and the riots by radical Moslems in France. There is even a book written by a Frenchman on the whole situation regarding France and why exactly the French acted to ban burkhas in schools.
I have no reason to make things up. Butchers shops and synagogues were attacked in France. Sharon publically asked Jews in France to leave and return to Israel and that is unique since there has never been this problem in France till recently. In fact the murder and torture of a young Jewish man brought the French out onto the streets in a march not so long ago.

http://www.yashanet.com/anti-semitis...tisemitism.htm
"A Jewish amateur soccer team in a Paris suburb was attacked by a gang of 15 hooded attackers wielding sticks and metal bars.
Synagogues have been firebombed in Marseilles and Montpellier in France and in Antwerp and Brussels in Belgium; and attackers crashed two cars into a Lyon synagogue and set fire to one of the vehicles inside the temple's prayer hall.
Attackers opened fire on a kosher butcher shop near Toulouse, while a Jewish couple - the woman was pregnant - was beaten in the Rhone region town of Villeurbanne."

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

"and you don't have any practical solution for it. Your "final solution" is more violence and oppression, that isn't going to reduce the amount of violence and oppression in the world... Duh."

The solution is straightforward. Israel needs to show the militant Islamics it means business for once and for all. Iran is clearly behind the arming of Hezbollah and so I think Israel needs to deal with this whole threat from Iran sooner, rather than later - that's how I see it.
In a nutshell, Israel is clearly blaming Iran for the current situation and for what it's worth if they go ahead and "kick ass" in Iran, they'd be doing the U.S. a favour. It would be a tough conflict but I think the world would be a far safer place with the mullahs overthrown and the message that would sent to other terrorist sponsoring states.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

"They contribute to Crappy, although you flatly deny that in the face of overwhelming evidence against you."

The problem is radical religion is a virus and the virus now finds itself introduced into European societies. It's like putting a virus on a disk into a P.C. that causes the whole thing to malfunction.
Waves of uncontrolled immigration have introduced a hidden malaise into locations such as London with people now marching to the drum of radical Islam. They imported radical fundamentalism, essentially, back in the eighties.
In the sixties this was a healthy, secular, free society. Now we are going back to the Dark Ages of religion, repression, racial hatred against Jews (or even Americans) e.t.c. The cause is radical religious ideas being propagated by fanatics who base themselves in England or France.
I have no doubts where the current anti semitism in the U.K. and France originated from as it never existed in the sixties and seventies. It came with the immigrants who arrived here expecting the rest of us to drop secularism and convert to a dark, radical theology that's destabilisng whole societies, from Denmark, to Holland to France. Yes, that's radical Islam for you.
It was the politcal correct brigade who basically didn't have the guts to demand some sort of standard from these immigrants and a basic belief in tolerance and this is now why we're heading for a fall.
The riots in France and Denmark I think were just the beginning of what is to come. Maybe Israel will have the last laugh?

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

See the pic below - taken from a London demonstration and that essentially shocked the globe:
"At the height of the protests on Friday demonstrators chanted slogans threatening more London bombings, praising the "magnificent" 9/11 hijackers and waving placards saying "Massacre those who insult Islam", "Europe you will pay" and "Europe you'll come crawling when Mujahideen come roaring".http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/05/nflag05.xml

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

SB, I suspect you and I could enter an all-night bar and have it closed down by 9pm ,if we ever got together.We are both rednecks at heart, I think!
Frightening thought, but not a bad thing.

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Dope,when training and talent just aren't enough.